Will President Obama be re-elected in 2012?

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Dear Forum,

I am surprized that no one via this Forum has asked help in the judgment of the re-election of President Obama or the election of Romney. Four years ago this Forum was covered up by many who were super involved in the contest between Obama and McCain, but here it is a few weeks away and no question has came up via our precious Forum of those devoting themselves to horary study.

Now I have been thinking about this election for some time and just didn't feel the influence to put my question into words and look at the map, but I'm ready to lay it on the line and make a judgment and I hope many will pick apart my analysis as Lilly taught we need to be solid, and make horary more credible for the world to view.

Will President Obama be re-elected in 2012?

Time: 4:36 p.m. . . . . . 1636 hours

October 24, 2012

Reno, Nv. (USA) . . . . 119w49 . . . . . 49n32

If one Does Not enlarge or recalculate data the horoscope from this website seems to stay indefinitely:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid= ... fix=1&ast=

The Asc. is 26pis32, almost too late to ask the horary; and that's the way I almost felt with the election so few weeks away. Jupiter is lord of the asc and Rx. Luna, the querant, myself, is squ to Mars then to Jupiter, showing the querant is in a bad way on this horary.

As Obama is the present holder of the office as President of the USA, Jupiter is lord of the quesited, the matter and Rx.

As Mars is opposing Jupiter it would look like a No that Obama will not retain the office, yet here comes swifter Luna who will frustrate the opposition with a square. Yet the squ is a No in itself.

Now what could that Rx Lord of the matter mean as in:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/retrograde.html
When significators are retrograde, delays, recurrences, returns to previous conditions and reversals of events may be shown.
In timing, aspects involving retrograde planets occur more suddenly - p.198
A sudden return when not expected - p.406
As something returning - p.357, 390, 406, & 468


As something happening suddenly - p.198, 211, 406
The lord of the matter and querant ruler are in detriment in Gemini.

And then look at Republican canidate Romney as the opposing party as Mercury in Sco in the 8th and within the degree of a blessed cjt. to the North Node. And then Venus is sextiling Romney's lord by a separation of 3 minutes, as Lilly allowed a 7 minute separation.

Now I'm Not all that excited about either canidate as many Americans see it the same way I understand with Pluto transiting in Capricorn. But despite the fact I have some Republican values I'd never vote Republican in any election and believe Lincoln and T.R. Roosevelt would have dismised themselves from this party, so I am not pro Romney.

But judging so far in my breif analysis Romney looks to become the next President as a return to a previous condition of Republican domination like under GW Bush, if I'm seeing this corectly; God help the Planet for the Mayan calender December 21, 2012 malady may be set in motion because of what will come to be.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-rea ... ?oid=22904

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I have to say I am a little confused here Clinton. Is this a horary question or an event chart?

You start off in the time honoured way. The ascendant is for the querent, the querent - yourself - is Jupiter. Jupiter is in a "bad way" for various reasons. So far so good for a horary question. Are you in a "bad way" worrying about the result of this election? Do you seriously think that this election result is going to have any significant impact on your life at all? What is the justification as far as you are concerned, to ask a question about the election result at this time? You said yourself, you are not particularly excited about either candidate...

Then, all of a sudden, Jupiter is transformed into Obama as present holder of the office and from here on, the chart is treated as an event/contest chart.

If this is an event chart, what was the event initiated by Obama at 4:36pm on the 24th of October to merit this chart?

Thanks

Geoffrey

Re: Will President Obama be re-elected in 2012?

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Thanks for your question, Clinton!
Clinton Soule wrote: . . . . . 1636 hours
. . . in years Lilly's times . . . :D

Clinton Soule wrote:The lord of the matter and querant ruler are in detriment in Gemini.
In my point of view the quesited is relevant in these questions, and not the querent (sorry Clinton :D ), with the exception that he is relevant for the assingnment of the quesited s 1st or 7th, 10th or fourth house as in your question.
On the second of November the Retrogradation of Jupiter brings him back in the dignity of his terms. But more important perhaps: he receives the Moon (the voting people. the electorate) in the dignity of his domicile.

This election chart (president in 10) accords with the usual allocation of state-charts. Thus the square of the Moon with Mars does not hinder her square with Jupiter, because Mars as Lord of the intercepted Aries is Coruler of the ascendent, the people.
Clinton Soule wrote:And then look at Republican canidate Romney as the opposing party as Mercury in Sco in the 8th and within the degree of a blessed cjt. to the North Node. And then Venus is sextiling Romney's lord by a separation of 3 minutes, as Lilly allowed a 7 minute separation.
But in another context Lilly judges a marriage only one minute in separation as destroyed.
And what is the conjunction with the northnode compared with Mercury being VOC?!
Nothing will change, the candidate remains the candidate NOT becoming the USA's next president.

The answer to your question would be YES, Obame will be re-elected.

Johannes

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Geoffrey says:
I have to say I am a little confused here Clinton. Is this a horary question or an event chart?

You start off in the time honoured way. The ascendant is for the querent, the querent - yourself - is Jupiter. Jupiter is in a "bad way" for various reasons. So far so good for a horary question. Are you in a "bad way" worrying about the result of this election? Do you seriously think that this election result is going to have any significant impact on your life at all?
Well even though I try to stick to 'Traditionalism' as in past posts via this Forum I have heard the confusion that Neptune demonstates often when Pisces is rising; and others have voiced this also via this Forum regardless of it Not being grounded in Traditionalism. So Geoffrey I think this and my sensitivity on the subject presents the outlook from myself the querant upon this. I'm pretty certain Lilly and the Ancients felt or heard this as well but they had no idea why.

Being a soul who cares more about the planet than the selfish interests of one particular nation, if Romney becomes the President with the transiting Pluto opposing the USA radical Sun in 2014 I see more of a totalitarian or dictitorial U.S. than before and much more friction and war in the Middle-East as Romney says he will wage war on Iran. Having taken an intense course in English history, more astrologers should look for predictions sake, at what Pluto did to England as it opposed their Sun since 1066 when William was crowned after defeating Harold at Hastings.

Geoffrey, with Luna in the 12th in Pisces, and squ Mars and Jupiter, I am in sorrow and somewhat in fear, though compassionate for the planet regardless of who wins this election; but Romney winning to me is like William Longshanks or Henry Tudor presiding as rulers as they were ruthless when England truly had harsh Monarchs. England's King Alfred, the 'Naval genius' has no equal presently in the potential coming Presidential canidates as FDR was a closer version to Alfred as he Aquarian-like cared for his kingdom and their humanity. I'm sure all around the Earth peoples are disenchanted with their rulers while Pluto transits Capricorn.

Geoffrey said:
What is the justification as far as you are concerned, to ask a question about the election result at this time? You said yourself, you are not particularly excited about either candidate...
Many Americans feel because neither party is adequately representing the public's needs that if ever there was a time for a third party canidate to have won it is now for in talking to many citizens over the years many feel part of the problem is the structure of the goverment itself, being the interpretations on the U.S. Constitution compounded by the fact Congress has became as corrupt as England's Parliment in the 1760s and 70s as the aristocracy was in France leading up to the French Revolution that was after Pluto passed through Capricorn. And various English citizens visiting the USA have commented that England's present Parliment is experiencing the same maladys.

So this is definitely a horary but maybe the Moon and Jupiter(lord of the querant) describe the state of the querant's attitude about the political situation.

As Obama is presently the Ruler, like a Govenor or King, the President is represented by the 10th and his opponent would be the 4th and it's lord which is cjt the North Node and has caught a great aspect from Venus unlike Obama's Lord Jupiter, for the 10th has horrible aspects.

The election is the 5th, ruled by the Moon, and you can see the Moon's afflictions in the website horary from astrodienst. Which someone could post on this thread as presently I haven't been able to post horoscopes via this Forum as well as Geoffrey can; I'm envious as how you do this.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise know how little they know

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Lilly's quotes on the retrograde effects are noted below as Obama's ruler is Rx:

CA p.357
Behold when the body of the Moon and the body of the Lord of the Ascendant, viz. when one of them applyeth bodily to the Planet that signifieth recovery; the thing stolne shall then be recovered; and if the application of the Significators be by Retrogradation, the recovery shall bee sudden, if the application be by direction, the recovery shall be before it be looked for.
Though the matter was about recovery, note that Lilly is citing the effects of the Moon in aspect to the lord of the Asc., which is the lord of the 10th, the President.

CA p. 406
...but if either his Significator be Retrograde, or the Moon be joyned to a Retrograde Planet, and behold the ascendant, it imports his sudden returne when not expected: ....
The above though concerning the return of someone not expected; and with that Pisces rising and Moon squ ruler I was both confused and stressed out over this horary and his Obama's winning of the Election based upon my original hypothesis would be unexpected.

CA p. 468
...Mercury Lord of the thing lost Retrograde, importing a returning of the thing againe casually: ...
Again, though Lilly is speaking of a return of a possesion, the Rx lord points to a return of a situation.

Johannes Susato says:
On the second of November the Retrogradation of Jupiter brings him back in the dignity of his terms. But more important perhaps: he receives the Moon (the voting people. the electorate) in the dignity of his domicile.

This election chart (president in 10) accords with the usual allocation of state-charts. Thus the square of the Moon with Mars does not hinder her square with Jupiter, because Mars as Lord of the intercepted Aries is Coruler of the ascendent, the people.
Well doesn't that show so well that I in this horary being with the Rx asc. was off and confused if not emotionally caught up in this as it is my country's people that would suffer if Romney happened to be elected. And the asc being the populace of the USA as well whom are dis-ilusioned with this election and both canidates?

Johannes Susato says:
But in another context Lilly judges a marriage only one minute in separation as destroyed.
And what is the conjunction with the northnode compared with Mercury being VOC?!
Nothing will change, the candidate remains the candidate NOT becoming the USA's next president.

The answer to your question would be YES, Obame will be re-elected.
Lilly did contradict himself from time to time but most artists regard his 7 minute seaparation rule as somewhat iron-clad compared to many Ancients whom allowed one degree separation. So I don't know if this is cancelled out as in the marriage case that you cite. If as Lilly's 7 minute separation rule is consistent here it will aid Romney and the great cjt of Romney's lord to the north node.

But in any case I sincerily hope you are correct and as it seems Obama will return to the White House.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know

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Clinton Soule wrote:
I am surprized that no one via this Forum has asked help in the judgment of the re-election of President Obama or the election of Romney. Four years ago this Forum was covered up by many who were super involved in the contest between Obama and McCain, but here it is a few weeks away and no question has came up via our precious Forum of those devoting themselves to horary study.
As mundane forum moderator I am quite relieved to see that. Dont you recall the heated arguments and locked thread? What about the competing horary charts stating the election favoured Obama and then according to another chart McCain?

I am no fan of horary charts for mundane questions. Establishing a firm connection between the querant and quesited is always crucial in horary. Unless you are working for the Obama or Romney campaigns or they come and ask you a question as the astrologer I question the legitimacy of such charts.

To put it bluntly I also think most of the time using horary for mundane questions is intellectually lazy.

Mundane astrology is hard work. It isn't traditionally regarded as the most complex branch of astrology for no reason. You have to pour over lots of different kinds of charts to reach a proper delineation. Horary for elections so typifies our 'quick fix' culture.

Of course your entitled to disagree. Anthony Louis has put up a horary on the US Presidential election. I respect Anthony Louis and like his work. I have replied to Anthony on his public blog below so I await his reply with interest:

http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/08/ ... -election/

I suppose it is easier to delineate at this election with Obama being the incumbent rather than having two candidates new to the office fighting it out as in 2008.

btw over on the mundane forum we have an ongoing thread on the outcome of the US Presidential election.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6978

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Mark wrote: As mundane forum moderator I am quite relieved to see that. Dont you recall the heated arguments and locked thread? What about the competing horary charts stating the election favoured Obama and then according to another chart McCain?

I am no fan of horary charts for mundane questions. Establishing a firm connection between the querant and quesited is always crucial in horary. Unless you are working for the Obama or Romney campaigns or they come and ask you a question as the astrologer I question the legitimacy of such charts.

To put it bluntly I also think most of the time using horary for mundane questions is intellectually lazy.
I have to say I completely agree with all this. Unless you're personally affiliated with the outcome - like you're one of Obama's daughters or something - I don't think a horary is the right approach. A mundane event chart is there for a reason. Otherwise we'd simply give up natal astrology, mundane astrology and all the rest and just do horaries for everything.

I've been wary that this thread would spiral into heated arguments so I'm kind of glad that there's not more focus on it right now. I suspect there will be increased focus over the next couple of weeks though and perhaps after we know the result.

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That was an interesting thread for which you gave the link, thankyou Mark.

Deborah Houlding does seem to leave the door open to the use of horary to judge the outcome of mundane events. In what circumstances (if any) would you feel such an approach was justified?

With that in mind, how was Lilly justified in treating a horary question as a mundane chart in, "If His Excellency Robert Earle of Essex should take Reading..." on page 401 of CA?

Geoffrey

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Geoffrey wrote:
Deborah Houlding does seem to leave the door open to the use of horary to judge the outcome of mundane events.

In what circumstances (if any) would you feel such an approach was justified?

With that in mind, how was Lilly justified in treating a horary question as a mundane chart in, "If His Excellency Robert Earle of Essex should take Reading..." on page 401 of CA?
I think my position is very similar to that of Deborah Houlding. Although as always she puts her point over far better than I ever could. I have no objection to mundane horary in two situations:

1 The astrologer has a strong personal connection to the matter that forms the question.

2 The querant consulting the astrologer has a strong personal connection to the matter that forms the question.

The way I was taught horary by Deb there ideally has to be real passion and personal connection coming from somewhere to make a question genuinely radical and likely to produce an accurate horary reading. Of course if people want to carry on regardless its their choice. I just think this kind of cavalier approach is very hit and miss. Moreover, when you are dealing with a hot potato like the US Presidency you can get into horary wars where people pull up different charts appearing to give opposing outcomes at times. In mundane astrology like an opening of poll or prior ingress we are dealing with objective events that cannot be subjectively plucked out at random choosing.

I think you are much more of an authority on William Lilly than I am Geoffrey but as far as I know nearly all his recorded mundane horary charts relate to cases where people involved in these issues actually consult him. That is is the unique thing about Lilly. He was so respected in his time that people from both the Royalist and Parliamentary sides consulted him. That is a fully legitimate use of horary.

There is the odd exception to this. We need to recall that astrology was very popular in the mid 17th century. Astrological judgements on political issues were therefore seen as having a strong propaganda effect during the English Civil war.

A good example of what I regard as a 'politicised horary' is Lilly''s horary 'If Presbytery Shall Stand?', Christian Astrology page 439. Its well recorded that William Lilly detested the Presbyterians so his objectivity is highly debateable in that chart. Still its a good read.

English Presbyterians came to be representative of those puritans who still cherished further reformation in church, but were unwavering in their fundamental loyalty to the Crown. After Charles I was executed they favoured a more conservative political settlement and sought a reformed national church as had already been established in Scotland. Religious Independents like Lilly were appalled by these ideas.

More about the English and Scottish Presbyterians during Lilly's time:

http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glo ... terian.htm

Ultimately, Lilly was right in the sense that Presbyterianism never became a national church in England and its religious influence waned after the restoration of the monarchy under Charles II (1660). Unfortunately for Lilly this development also saw Anglicanism made the national religion in England under the under the Act of Uniformity (1662), which required all clergymen to be Anglican. Like the Presbyterians religious Independents such as Lilly ended up socially excluded as 'non-conformists'.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Thanks for that Mark

A true Scot, you waste no chance to highlight the superiority of the reformed Scottish Church.:wink:

However, I would draw you gently back to "If His Excellency Robert Earle of Essex should take Reading...". The obvious answer to my quandry is that Robert, Earl of Essex, was himself the querent, so giving him the ascendant as of right. But if that was the case, why did Lilly see it necessary to finish off his analysis of the chart by saying, "A person of honour demanded this question....."?

One justification for this sentence could be that the honour of Robert, Earl of Essex, had been questioned due to his behaviour at the siege of Reading or subsequently, and Lilly was telling us firmly where he stood on the matter. But as far as I am aware, that was never the case. Colonel Richard Fielding, commander of the Royalists who surrendered Reading to Essex, did have his honour questioned as a result - as Lilly relates - but not Essex. If Fielding had been the querent, the ascendant should have been for him.

It would seem most probable then that the querent was not Robert, Earl of Essex.

Too, the siege of Reading started on the 16th of April, whereas the question is timed for the evening of the 17th of April, so it could not be claimed that this is an event chart for the siege. It seems that there is no doubt that this is timed as a horary question, but the ascendant is not given to the querent, which is always the way a horary delineation starts, showing the connection of the querent to the question.

It would seem that this is a case where Lilly treated a horary question as an event/contest chart. It is a pity the justification for this is absent.

Geoffrey