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Will President Obama be re-elected in 2012?
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Will President Obama be re-elected in 2012? Reply with quote

Dear Forum,

I am surprized that no one via this Forum has asked help in the judgment of the re-election of President Obama or the election of Romney. Four years ago this Forum was covered up by many who were super involved in the contest between Obama and McCain, but here it is a few weeks away and no question has came up via our precious Forum of those devoting themselves to horary study.

Now I have been thinking about this election for some time and just didn't feel the influence to put my question into words and look at the map, but I'm ready to lay it on the line and make a judgment and I hope many will pick apart my analysis as Lilly taught we need to be solid, and make horary more credible for the world to view.

Will President Obama be re-elected in 2012?

Time: 4:36 p.m. . . . . . 1636 hours

October 24, 2012

Reno, Nv. (USA) . . . . 119w49 . . . . . 49n32

If one Does Not enlarge or recalculate data the horoscope from this website seems to stay indefinitely:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=7x4file6lHpeC-u1351121940&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=1&nho2=1&btyp=2&mth=gw&sday=25&smon=10&syr=2012&hsy=5&zod=&orbp=&rs=2&add=18&node=-Yn&pfday=-YP+1&fix=1&ast=

The Asc. is 26pis32, almost too late to ask the horary; and that's the way I almost felt with the election so few weeks away. Jupiter is lord of the asc and Rx. Luna, the querant, myself, is squ to Mars then to Jupiter, showing the querant is in a bad way on this horary.

As Obama is the present holder of the office as President of the USA, Jupiter is lord of the quesited, the matter and Rx.

As Mars is opposing Jupiter it would look like a No that Obama will not retain the office, yet here comes swifter Luna who will frustrate the opposition with a square. Yet the squ is a No in itself.

Now what could that Rx Lord of the matter mean as in:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/retrograde.html

Quote:
When significators are retrograde, delays, recurrences, returns to previous conditions and reversals of events may be shown.


Quote:
In timing, aspects involving retrograde planets occur more suddenly - p.198


Quote:
A sudden return when not expected - p.406



Quote:
As something returning - p.357, 390, 406, & 468


As something happening suddenly - p.198, 211, 406


The lord of the matter and querant ruler are in detriment in Gemini.

And then look at Republican canidate Romney as the opposing party as Mercury in Sco in the 8th and within the degree of a blessed cjt. to the North Node. And then Venus is sextiling Romney's lord by a separation of 3 minutes, as Lilly allowed a 7 minute separation.

Now I'm Not all that excited about either canidate as many Americans see it the same way I understand with Pluto transiting in Capricorn. But despite the fact I have some Republican values I'd never vote Republican in any election and believe Lincoln and T.R. Roosevelt would have dismised themselves from this party, so I am not pro Romney.

But judging so far in my breif analysis Romney looks to become the next President as a return to a previous condition of Republican domination like under GW Bush, if I'm seeing this corectly; God help the Planet for the Mayan calender December 21, 2012 malady may be set in motion because of what will come to be.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I am a little confused here Clinton. Is this a horary question or an event chart?

You start off in the time honoured way. The ascendant is for the querent, the querent - yourself - is Jupiter. Jupiter is in a "bad way" for various reasons. So far so good for a horary question. Are you in a "bad way" worrying about the result of this election? Do you seriously think that this election result is going to have any significant impact on your life at all? What is the justification as far as you are concerned, to ask a question about the election result at this time? You said yourself, you are not particularly excited about either candidate...

Then, all of a sudden, Jupiter is transformed into Obama as present holder of the office and from here on, the chart is treated as an event/contest chart.

If this is an event chart, what was the event initiated by Obama at 4:36pm on the 24th of October to merit this chart?

Thanks

Geoffrey
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Will President Obama be re-elected in 2012? Reply with quote

Thanks for your question, Clinton!

Clinton Soule wrote:

. . . . . 1636 hours
. . . in years Lilly's times . . . Very Happy


Clinton Soule wrote:
The lord of the matter and querant ruler are in detriment in Gemini.
In my point of view the quesited is relevant in these questions, and not the querent (sorry Clinton Very Happy ), with the exception that he is relevant for the assingnment of the quesited s 1st or 7th, 10th or fourth house as in your question.
On the second of November the Retrogradation of Jupiter brings him back in the dignity of his terms. But more important perhaps: he receives the Moon (the voting people. the electorate) in the dignity of his domicile.

This election chart (president in 10) accords with the usual allocation of state-charts. Thus the square of the Moon with Mars does not hinder her square with Jupiter, because Mars as Lord of the intercepted Aries is Coruler of the ascendent, the people.

Clinton Soule wrote:
And then look at Republican canidate Romney as the opposing party as Mercury in Sco in the 8th and within the degree of a blessed cjt. to the North Node. And then Venus is sextiling Romney's lord by a separation of 3 minutes, as Lilly allowed a 7 minute separation.
But in another context Lilly judges a marriage only one minute in separation as destroyed.
And what is the conjunction with the northnode compared with Mercury being VOC?!
Nothing will change, the candidate remains the candidate NOT becoming the USA's next president.

The answer to your question would be YES, Obame will be re-elected.

Johannes
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Goca



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 948
Location: Srbija

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he will be re-elected.
Obama is 10th house ruler Ju rx. Romney is Me. Moon is the key to judgement, as it represents the electorate. Moon is in Ju sign and in detriment and fall of Me, so people are on Obama's side, so he will be re-elected.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey says:

Quote:
I have to say I am a little confused here Clinton. Is this a horary question or an event chart?

You start off in the time honoured way. The ascendant is for the querent, the querent - yourself - is Jupiter. Jupiter is in a "bad way" for various reasons. So far so good for a horary question. Are you in a "bad way" worrying about the result of this election? Do you seriously think that this election result is going to have any significant impact on your life at all?


Well even though I try to stick to 'Traditionalism' as in past posts via this Forum I have heard the confusion that Neptune demonstates often when Pisces is rising; and others have voiced this also via this Forum regardless of it Not being grounded in Traditionalism. So Geoffrey I think this and my sensitivity on the subject presents the outlook from myself the querant upon this. I'm pretty certain Lilly and the Ancients felt or heard this as well but they had no idea why.

Being a soul who cares more about the planet than the selfish interests of one particular nation, if Romney becomes the President with the transiting Pluto opposing the USA radical Sun in 2014 I see more of a totalitarian or dictitorial U.S. than before and much more friction and war in the Middle-East as Romney says he will wage war on Iran. Having taken an intense course in English history, more astrologers should look for predictions sake, at what Pluto did to England as it opposed their Sun since 1066 when William was crowned after defeating Harold at Hastings.

Geoffrey, with Luna in the 12th in Pisces, and squ Mars and Jupiter, I am in sorrow and somewhat in fear, though compassionate for the planet regardless of who wins this election; but Romney winning to me is like William Longshanks or Henry Tudor presiding as rulers as they were ruthless when England truly had harsh Monarchs. England's King Alfred, the 'Naval genius' has no equal presently in the potential coming Presidential canidates as FDR was a closer version to Alfred as he Aquarian-like cared for his kingdom and their humanity. I'm sure all around the Earth peoples are disenchanted with their rulers while Pluto transits Capricorn.

Geoffrey said:

Quote:
What is the justification as far as you are concerned, to ask a question about the election result at this time? You said yourself, you are not particularly excited about either candidate...


Many Americans feel because neither party is adequately representing the public's needs that if ever there was a time for a third party canidate to have won it is now for in talking to many citizens over the years many feel part of the problem is the structure of the goverment itself, being the interpretations on the U.S. Constitution compounded by the fact Congress has became as corrupt as England's Parliment in the 1760s and 70s as the aristocracy was in France leading up to the French Revolution that was after Pluto passed through Capricorn. And various English citizens visiting the USA have commented that England's present Parliment is experiencing the same maladys.

So this is definitely a horary but maybe the Moon and Jupiter(lord of the querant) describe the state of the querant's attitude about the political situation.

As Obama is presently the Ruler, like a Govenor or King, the President is represented by the 10th and his opponent would be the 4th and it's lord which is cjt the North Node and has caught a great aspect from Venus unlike Obama's Lord Jupiter, for the 10th has horrible aspects.

The election is the 5th, ruled by the Moon, and you can see the Moon's afflictions in the website horary from astrodienst. Which someone could post on this thread as presently I haven't been able to post horoscopes via this Forum as well as Geoffrey can; I'm envious as how you do this.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise know how little they know
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lilly's quotes on the retrograde effects are noted below as Obama's ruler is Rx:

CA p.357

Quote:
Behold when the body of the Moon and the body of the Lord of the Ascendant, viz. when one of them applyeth bodily to the Planet that signifieth recovery; the thing stolne shall then be recovered; and if the application of the Significators be by Retrogradation, the recovery shall bee sudden, if the application be by direction, the recovery shall be before it be looked for.


Though the matter was about recovery, note that Lilly is citing the effects of the Moon in aspect to the lord of the Asc., which is the lord of the 10th, the President.

CA p. 406

Quote:
...but if either his Significator be Retrograde, or the Moon be joyned to a Retrograde Planet, and behold the ascendant, it imports his sudden returne when not expected: ....


The above though concerning the return of someone not expected; and with that Pisces rising and Moon squ ruler I was both confused and stressed out over this horary and his Obama's winning of the Election based upon my original hypothesis would be unexpected.

CA p. 468

Quote:
...Mercury Lord of the thing lost Retrograde, importing a returning of the thing againe casually: ...


Again, though Lilly is speaking of a return of a possesion, the Rx lord points to a return of a situation.

Johannes Susato says:

Quote:
On the second of November the Retrogradation of Jupiter brings him back in the dignity of his terms. But more important perhaps: he receives the Moon (the voting people. the electorate) in the dignity of his domicile.

This election chart (president in 10) accords with the usual allocation of state-charts. Thus the square of the Moon with Mars does not hinder her square with Jupiter, because Mars as Lord of the intercepted Aries is Coruler of the ascendent, the people.



Well doesn't that show so well that I in this horary being with the Rx asc. was off and confused if not emotionally caught up in this as it is my country's people that would suffer if Romney happened to be elected. And the asc being the populace of the USA as well whom are dis-ilusioned with this election and both canidates?

Johannes Susato says:

Quote:
But in another context Lilly judges a marriage only one minute in separation as destroyed.
And what is the conjunction with the northnode compared with Mercury being VOC?!
Nothing will change, the candidate remains the candidate NOT becoming the USA's next president.

The answer to your question would be YES, Obame will be re-elected.


Lilly did contradict himself from time to time but most artists regard his 7 minute seaparation rule as somewhat iron-clad compared to many Ancients whom allowed one degree separation. So I don't know if this is cancelled out as in the marriage case that you cite. If as Lilly's 7 minute separation rule is consistent here it will aid Romney and the great cjt of Romney's lord to the north node.

But in any case I sincerily hope you are correct and as it seems Obama will return to the White House.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5241
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:
Quote:
I am surprized that no one via this Forum has asked help in the judgment of the re-election of President Obama or the election of Romney. Four years ago this Forum was covered up by many who were super involved in the contest between Obama and McCain, but here it is a few weeks away and no question has came up via our precious Forum of those devoting themselves to horary study.


As mundane forum moderator I am quite relieved to see that. Dont you recall the heated arguments and locked thread? What about the competing horary charts stating the election favoured Obama and then according to another chart McCain?

I am no fan of horary charts for mundane questions. Establishing a firm connection between the querant and quesited is always crucial in horary. Unless you are working for the Obama or Romney campaigns or they come and ask you a question as the astrologer I question the legitimacy of such charts.

To put it bluntly I also think most of the time using horary for mundane questions is intellectually lazy.

Mundane astrology is hard work. It isn't traditionally regarded as the most complex branch of astrology for no reason. You have to pour over lots of different kinds of charts to reach a proper delineation. Horary for elections so typifies our 'quick fix' culture.

Of course your entitled to disagree. Anthony Louis has put up a horary on the US Presidential election. I respect Anthony Louis and like his work. I have replied to Anthony on his public blog below so I await his reply with interest:

http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/08/18/who-will-win-the-us-presidential-election/

I suppose it is easier to delineate at this election with Obama being the incumbent rather than having two candidates new to the office fighting it out as in 2008.

btw over on the mundane forum we have an ongoing thread on the outcome of the US Presidential election.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6978

Mark
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

As mundane forum moderator I am quite relieved to see that. Dont you recall the heated arguments and locked thread? What about the competing horary charts stating the election favoured Obama and then according to another chart McCain?

I am no fan of horary charts for mundane questions. Establishing a firm connection between the querant and quesited is always crucial in horary. Unless you are working for the Obama or Romney campaigns or they come and ask you a question as the astrologer I question the legitimacy of such charts.

To put it bluntly I also think most of the time using horary for mundane questions is intellectually lazy.


I have to say I completely agree with all this. Unless you're personally affiliated with the outcome - like you're one of Obama's daughters or something - I don't think a horary is the right approach. A mundane event chart is there for a reason. Otherwise we'd simply give up natal astrology, mundane astrology and all the rest and just do horaries for everything.

I've been wary that this thread would spiral into heated arguments so I'm kind of glad that there's not more focus on it right now. I suspect there will be increased focus over the next couple of weeks though and perhaps after we know the result.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found this excellent discussion from an old Skyscript thread. I was relieved to see that a horary authority as distinguished as our web host Deborah Houlding is also sceptical about horary questions on such matters:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5769&highlight=&sid=8c4ab9ce0ec19668b963c04390f8c18b

Mark
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was an interesting thread for which you gave the link, thankyou Mark.

Deborah Houlding does seem to leave the door open to the use of horary to judge the outcome of mundane events. In what circumstances (if any) would you feel such an approach was justified?

With that in mind, how was Lilly justified in treating a horary question as a mundane chart in, "If His Excellency Robert Earle of Essex should take Reading..." on page 401 of CA?

Geoffrey
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey wrote:

Quote:
Deborah Houlding does seem to leave the door open to the use of horary to judge the outcome of mundane events.

In what circumstances (if any) would you feel such an approach was justified?

With that in mind, how was Lilly justified in treating a horary question as a mundane chart in, "If His Excellency Robert Earle of Essex should take Reading..." on page 401 of CA?


I think my position is very similar to that of Deborah Houlding. Although as always she puts her point over far better than I ever could. I have no objection to mundane horary in two situations:

1 The astrologer has a strong personal connection to the matter that forms the question.

2 The querant consulting the astrologer has a strong personal connection to the matter that forms the question.

The way I was taught horary by Deb there ideally has to be real passion and personal connection coming from somewhere to make a question genuinely radical and likely to produce an accurate horary reading. Of course if people want to carry on regardless its their choice. I just think this kind of cavalier approach is very hit and miss. Moreover, when you are dealing with a hot potato like the US Presidency you can get into horary wars where people pull up different charts appearing to give opposing outcomes at times. In mundane astrology like an opening of poll or prior ingress we are dealing with objective events that cannot be subjectively plucked out at random choosing.

I think you are much more of an authority on William Lilly than I am Geoffrey but as far as I know nearly all his recorded mundane horary charts relate to cases where people involved in these issues actually consult him. That is is the unique thing about Lilly. He was so respected in his time that people from both the Royalist and Parliamentary sides consulted him. That is a fully legitimate use of horary.

There is the odd exception to this. We need to recall that astrology was very popular in the mid 17th century. Astrological judgements on political issues were therefore seen as having a strong propaganda effect during the English Civil war.

A good example of what I regard as a 'politicised horary' is Lilly''s horary 'If Presbytery Shall Stand?', Christian Astrology page 439. Its well recorded that William Lilly detested the Presbyterians so his objectivity is highly debateable in that chart. Still its a good read.

English Presbyterians came to be representative of those puritans who still cherished further reformation in church, but were unwavering in their fundamental loyalty to the Crown. After Charles I was executed they favoured a more conservative political settlement and sought a reformed national church as had already been established in Scotland. Religious Independents like Lilly were appalled by these ideas.

More about the English and Scottish Presbyterians during Lilly's time:

http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glossary/presbyterian.htm

Ultimately, Lilly was right in the sense that Presbyterianism never became a national church in England and its religious influence waned after the restoration of the monarchy under Charles II (1660). Unfortunately for Lilly this development also saw Anglicanism made the national religion in England under the under the Act of Uniformity (1662), which required all clergymen to be Anglican. Like the Presbyterians religious Independents such as Lilly ended up socially excluded as 'non-conformists'.

Mark
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that Mark

A true Scot, you waste no chance to highlight the superiority of the reformed Scottish Church.Wink

However, I would draw you gently back to "If His Excellency Robert Earle of Essex should take Reading...". The obvious answer to my quandry is that Robert, Earl of Essex, was himself the querent, so giving him the ascendant as of right. But if that was the case, why did Lilly see it necessary to finish off his analysis of the chart by saying, "A person of honour demanded this question....."?

One justification for this sentence could be that the honour of Robert, Earl of Essex, had been questioned due to his behaviour at the siege of Reading or subsequently, and Lilly was telling us firmly where he stood on the matter. But as far as I am aware, that was never the case. Colonel Richard Fielding, commander of the Royalists who surrendered Reading to Essex, did have his honour questioned as a result - as Lilly relates - but not Essex. If Fielding had been the querent, the ascendant should have been for him.

It would seem most probable then that the querent was not Robert, Earl of Essex.

Too, the siege of Reading started on the 16th of April, whereas the question is timed for the evening of the 17th of April, so it could not be claimed that this is an event chart for the siege. It seems that there is no doubt that this is timed as a horary question, but the ascendant is not given to the querent, which is always the way a horary delineation starts, showing the connection of the querent to the question.

It would seem that this is a case where Lilly treated a horary question as an event/contest chart. It is a pity the justification for this is absent.

Geoffrey
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey wrote:
Quote:
A true Scot, you waste no chance to highlight the superiority of the reformed Scottish Church.Wink


Oh Geoffrey if you only knew how far off the mark that observation was!

I suspected you knew far more about the question you were asking than I did and so it indeed appears Smile

I am really no authority on Lilly or Christian Astrology. Its a question worthy of a true expert such as Deborah Houlding or Christopher Warnock.

However, we are fortunate to have these very useful articles here on Lilly's war horaries by David Plant. The first war chart he discusses is actually 'If His Excellency Robert Earle of Essex should take Reading..." He picks up the exact issue you raised above about the odd house assignation to the querant. If you scroll down to the bottom of each article you can see a link to Lilly's original judgement typeset for modern readers.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/CA401.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/CA452.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/CA455.html

It seems clear the Earl of Essex is not the querant here. The querants relationship to the Earl of Essex is an interesting question. All we really know is that he is described as a 'man of honour' and he clearly strongly supported the Parliamentary side. He may well have been a prominent member of the Parliamentary cause.

The chart I highlighted 'If Presbytery Shall stand' is quite different in that here Lilly has no client and is asking the question himself.

Mark
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey, Goca, Mark, Paul, and other Forum artists who have not as yet joined in, this is definitely an 'out on the limb' topic as far as Elections go. As in the Fertile Cresent where Anthony Louis's first book points out is the first gleanings or usage of horary, and latter Europe there were no elections for Monarchs or any records of Roman or Greek Senator horarys on their election, nor is there possibly any horarys to note on elections to delegates in the House of Commons, or anywhere to our knowledge, perhaps because those possible records were burnt when the foolish leader destroyed the library in Alexandria.

Mark said:

"The way I was taught horary by Deb there ideally has to be real passion and personal connection coming from somewhere to make a question genuinely radical and likely to produce an accurate horary reading. Of course if people want to carry on regardless its their choice. I just think this kind of cavalier approach is very hit and miss. Moreover, when you are dealing with a hot potato like the US Presidency you can get into horary wars where people pull up different charts appearing to give opposing outcomes at times. In mundane astrology like an opening of poll or prior ingress we are dealing with objective events that cannot be subjectively plucked out at random choosing."

(The benevolent Forum will have to forgive my inability to quote Mark correctly today, I'm away from base, and this computer I'm using appears rather pre-historic in that I'm having a few problems getting the gal to co-operate!) Grin

Mark, you ought to know and others here that I deeply respect Deb's knowledge, wisdom, generosity in such a benevolent manner for the sake of a Divine science and art. I say Science because Lilly placed astrology within the 9th as a matter where he also put science, even if he calls it an art. And all the diligent horary students here who are in quest of horary excellence as if they were earning their Doctorates in the Holy Art.

Yet even that Taurean, Lilly, a mountain of horary wisdom, admitted to errors as in his reluctance of buying Master B's house with the matter's lord Rx. And Lilly did advocate a concept that has rocked the minds of the most devout Traditionalists in his method of 'a planet can perfect if within orb to a planet in another sign and bring about a matter's end'; something that most find Lilly was in error today. Which devoted artists have argued heavily years ago on Angelicus Merlin Horary Forum owned by Dorothy Kovach.

Paul within the medical profession they hypothetically believed the squat exercise was the culprit that damaged the knee back in the 70's when a noted physician presented his research upon the knee injurys. At present the Medical Profession has been pushing the concept that it was not the squat exersize yet the leg extension as it's an unatural movement. My point is they, the Medical profession like horary are practicing medicine, they are Not the Holy Jehovah that created the body nor are they the Heavenly Creator who justly handed out afflictions and benefic aspects in each native's natal horoscopes from earnings done in prior incarnations. In truth many times the physicians Do Not know as they are practicing medicine just as we are practicing astrology built upon the premises of the Masters or Ancients who laid our foundations.

When Siraxi, from Romania, cited my work in I believe the topic 'Do UFOs exist?', about 8 months after Bush's re-election via this Forum under Moderator MarkF as in:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1015&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=0d8020a06cbdb222e7359f11e1211ca6

7th SECTION DOWN, SIRAXI......


"siraxi

Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 96
Location: Romania
Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:29 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've seen a horary on the US presidential elections published on Oct 15 by an astrologer named Clinton Soule on the email list HoraryHour:

QUESTION: Will Bush be re-elected as President in 2004?
TIME: 5:44 pm PLACE: Reno, NV DATE: 10 / 14 / 2004

He delineated this horary chart correctly...

I asked a similar question last year on the presidential election in my country and the horary chart was accurate. I didn't delineate the chart at that time, only afterwards, but the chart was quite clear.

So there seem to be no problem in asking political horary questions as long as the interest is genuine. "

Having taken statistics 6 times and finally got my good grade, I'm well aware a few trials or even thousands Do Not nessasarily prove any hypothesis. And Forum forgive me if this sounds as Heresy in Traditionalism, but in that particular horary, cited above, the Moon(lord of the Election) was aspected adverse to Neptune showing the election's Fraud and Deception. And as documented on C-SPAN, U.S. Congresswoman Boxer of California, and Congresswoman Tubbs Jones of Ohio in their coalition brougth forth a hearing in Congress globally aired on television of the fraudulent actions by police and the voting polls simular to Bush's alledged tampering with ballots in the Florida election by Bush's brother the Govenor. In other words, even if I have Not studied the deviations of John Frawley who uses Outers in some fashion in what many of his students claim is a vein of Traditionalism should I shut my eyes when I see a horary manifest involving the Outers.

Yet in that horary, Chad Henry had pointed out to me, it's Not the election but will the President retain his position, or the 10th of that map. And the 10th is what transpired as Bush deceptively lost in a strong hypothesis demonstrated by Congress the election in Ohio which he needed the electoral votes, he thru dishonest means won the election simular to Henry the VIII's deception in having Ann Bolin executed when the facts are he definitely by the Christian precepts was an adulterer.

In the same way as the querant who was a citizen of England asked as in CA II, page 448, 'If one shall continue to the Office or Command he is in?' I have as a citizen who will be drastically affected by either President who is in office, as the present Transiting Pluto will perfect an Opposition to the USA's radical Sun in 2014. I and all of my nation's citizens and espeacially the Middle-East are are in a critical situation. Just as much as when Europe was under Charlemane in the VIII's century, or citizen's of France under Bonaparte, or when a brilliant leader became a gangster almost conquering Europe in the 40s, this office of President matters to me and the planet.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope my prior post did Not offend any Ultra-Trads, as I have met a few via this Forum and others that are quite sensitive to any mentioning of Outers or their use in Natal, Transits, or Progressions and Directions.

But just as when we have a horary about a relationship we do not consult the 5th as John Gadbury did, we use the 7th even if the couple may have no intention of marriage or co-habitation. In other words in this horary the Election is only to means and not the subject as political positions elsewhere are appointed or inherited rather than elected. The matter here follows Lilly's Tenth house question "If one shall continue in the Office or Command he is in?" Found in CA II on page 447-448.

Quote:
Behold herein the Lord of the 1st and the 10th, and see if they be in any aspect, or neer to a corporall conjunction; and see if the more ponderous Planet of the two, that is, the receiver of the Disposition be in any angle but the 4th; say then, he shall not be removed from his Office untill his appointed time comes out: but if that Receiver of the Disposition be under the earth, or in the descending part of heaven, it imports he shall depart from his Office, or for a time loose it; but shall returne thither againe more confirmed in his Place: and if the receiver of the Disposition be received againe, then he returnes with more honour then before, and also very speedily.


In this horary it so happens the first and tenth are both ruled by Jupiter yet the Moon Squ Jupiter, Moon representing the querant we all understand and as noted the public. In reading this it seems to me that because Jupiter's depositor is Mercury and it has a separation of 6 minutes rather than the 3 minutes I had said earlier, and Lilly accepted a 7 minute separation, then Venus may still influence Mercury. and I thank Johannes for pointing out what Lilly said about the marriage horary with a one minute seapation; there had to be other factors within the horary that out weighed the other varibles.

Lilly's usage of the term 'disposition', is this meaning depositor or something else in that Old English that I'm missing?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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