skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Traditional primary directions example
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3741
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Traditional primary directions example Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Abigail was shot in the head (Mars), then drowned (Saturn), on the day that the transiting Sun perfected a square to Mars in both charts.


lihin wrote:


On comparing this data with Professor Gansten's list, it seems one cannot quite confirm the transit of Sun to natal Mars on the date of death, it apparently having occurred during the prior day, 30 November, at about 08h45.

Best regards,

lihin


lihin is initially talking about a 'transit' being incorrect... he then goes on to wax about rectifications and close is relative using an example to do with primary directions, not transits.. one could be forgiven for being distracted i suppose...

lihin wrote:


"Close" is relative. Five minutes difference (rounded) of Right Ascension in the above primary directions of Mars mean, using Ptolemy's key of 1 degree RA = 1 year as has done Professor Gansten, a timing difference of about 30 days.

Best regards,

lihin


and for the record it was martin who mentions the use of sidereal in his initial post
Martin Gansten wrote:
Casting the revolution for Abigail’s 7th birthday (I use the sidereal/precessed revolution)


but also clearly states
Martin Gansten wrote:

I won’t post the chart, but rather allow everyone to cast it themselves using their choice of zodiac, house system, etc.


as i understand it, this thread isn't a conversation about which zodiac we are using and it isn't about rectification via primary directions something peripheral that lihin brings up for whatever reason who knows.. i suppose we can have a conversation about this stuff too, but it would appear tom would like this section to not focus on the sidereal zodiac!

whew!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3741
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would like to continue on with another example of primary directions and i want to see if i can somehow learn something here in the process by following martins example..

i would like to take a look at the chart of william gustafson, the 5 year old brother of abigail who was used in martins example who also happened to die on the same day - dec 1 1987 at approx 130-5pm as lihin notes his post from tuesday 913pm.. here is a linkto his birth data and chart rated AA astrodatabank. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gustafson,_William

Martin Gansten wrote:


The first thing an astrologer would traditionally look for in a nativity was the length of life, determined by the hyleg or apheta. I will follow Ptolemy here in disregarding the tangled question of the alcochoden, which in my experience does not work consistently anyway.


i believe this would be the part of fortune in williams case, but others can correct me if i have it wrong..

one can note williams solar return for 1987 where a close mars opposite jupiter in the 12/6 houses of the solar return chart, lands in the 2/8th houses of williams natal chart. mars is the ruler of his natal 8th and the ruler of the ascendant in the solar return chart.. below is a chart with natal on the inside and solar return 87 on the outside.



now unlike abigails chart, the primary direction data is not as easy to decipher and the transit data more challenging to integrate with as well, as i see it. perhaps someone would like to offer a perspective on how the transit data highlights williams final moment. i note t jupiter in the 8th close to the mars/jupiter opposition in the solar return chart and in opposition to the part of fortune - 2 degree orb which i believe has some bearing. i note t sun conjunct the i.c or 4th house cusp which has an association with the end of life. this is as much as i get off the transit data.

regarding the primary direction data, my impression is that any direction involving mars as ruler of the 8th would have bearing and seeing as how it is positioned in the solar return chart. unfortunately unless one uses semisextiles, the outer planets, or midpoints, it is difficult to get a clear read using a traditional approach off the primary directions in this particular example.. i note the position of uranus at 3 sag 57 is very close to the mars/saturn midpoint at 3 sag 16, but this is not something traditional astrologers would rely on. the primary directions involving mars semisextile natal uranus would not be in use and neither would the primary direction of the midheaven in opposition to natal uranus.. i don't believe many traditional astrologers would work with the semisquare aspect, so the mars directed to sun via 45 would probably not be included. perhaps the part of fortune directed square saturn would be, but this is for april 7th 1987, while the event happens dec 1 1987..perhaps the mc directed to a sesquisquare to saturn would be included by some, but not by others. the date for this in my link below is oct 18/87 and again dec 2/87 one day off the event. anyone want to chime in on the most relevant primary direction using their particular aspect and planet set for this particular example? martin?



thanks lihin.. hopefully this fixes the size problem..now the primary direction data page is too small! i am uploading images at a different site and just figuring this out.. thanks!


Last edited by james_m on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:42 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 319
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 8:22 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:13 am    Post subject: Bucket of cold water? Reply with quote

Good morning,

Casting appropriate charts and placing them at the disposition of fellow forum members is, methinks, a service. As Professor Gansten himself mentioned, he used a 'precessed' solar revolution which means the sidereal year, a bit longer than the tropical. He did not mention which of the few dozen 'sidereal' zodiacs readily available in computer software or a custom one he used.

There was no intent whatsoever to engage a discussion in this thread about the various merits of tropical and 'sidereal' zodiacs, criteria for defining and selecting these, or the many variants of the latter. Methinks so-called 'sidereal' zodiacs are attempts to approximate in equal signs the unequal astronomical, real sidereal constellations. But this is the subject of another thread.

Likewise, there was no intent to transform this thread into one on rectification. As Mr Graham Fox has stated, using the death event and primary directions to rectify the chart might assist our understanding of the nativity and has been common practice amongst astrologers who work with primary directions.

Those who opine that this thread should be restricted to analyses within the framework of a 'sidereal' zodiac should indeed request its transfer to the Sidereal section of the forum. Professor Gansten, the originator of the thread, has made no such request and to my understanding had no such intent.

Unless i misunderstood, Professor Gansten compared the position of Sun in the death chart ('transit') to those of Mars in the natal and solar revolution charts. Is this correct?

Could we return to the charts, please?

Question: to what extent does the eighth place of the natal chart indicate the potential of the actual death event indicated by the primary directions?

Tropical, northern hemisphere, whole sign places:

Venus is posited in 8, Saturn the domicile ruler and Al-Mubtazz (using Ptolemy's elemental triangle rulers, Mars using Dorotheus').

Hipparkhos 'sidereal', 'classical' fields:

Venus posited in 8, Jupiter domicile ruler and Al-Mubtazz

Best regards,

lihin
_________________
Non esse nihil non est.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 319
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3741
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: getting back on track Reply with quote

lihin wrote:


Question: to what extent does the eighth place of the natal chart indicate the potential of the actual death event indicated by the primary directions?lihin


lihin, at the beginning of martins thread, martin pointed out his first consideration
Martin Gansten wrote:


The first thing an astrologer would traditionally look for in a nativity was the length of life, determined by the hyleg or apheta.


this led him to the sun as hyleg for abigails chart.. this is why the directions involving the sun direct to saturn is of particular relevance as it combines the ruler of the 8th - saturn, with the hyleg associated with length of life.. same deal to a certain extent with any direction involving the other malefic mars and the sun, and then i suppose one could say mars is exalted in the 8th sign of abigails chart too.. not sure if this helps you out, but that is my take..
Martin Gansten wrote:


Although the Sun is the main significator of life, it is pertinent to note that, since the Sun is so close to the horizon, the ascendant will be involved in the same directions at approximately the same times. Thus, the ascendant is directed by direct motion to the square of Saturn with an arc of 9°17ʹ and by converse motion to the square of Mars with an arc of 8°44ʹ.

We thus get a train of deadly directions involving both the malefics, as follows:
Sun converse to the square of Mars 7°52ʹ
Ascendant converse to the square of Mars 8°44ʹ
Ascendant direct to the square of Saturn 9°17ʹ
Sun direct to the square of Saturn 10°09ʹ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Information for image posters Reply with quote

Good morning,

To obtain a 'column width' of the posted images suitable to a forum format such as here, before the upload one can select Message Board (640x480) from the Resize options in TinyPic.

Here is an image of the menu at TinyPic:



Best regards,

lihin
_________________
Non esse nihil non est.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3741
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

let me know if that primary direction data pic is too big.. it works on my screen, but i have a bigger screen..

here is my rationale for using the semisextile and sesquisquare/semisquare aspects on william gustafsons chart.. from my pov a chart where the planets are bundled together tightly will not have some of the standard aspect connections with planets taking place until a mature age in the primary directions given this bundling of planets so close together... one will not find oppositions or squares happening in the pds until a much later date in the persons life.. conjunctions, direct or converse, one will see however.. for someone of age 5 and with a chart like this, one needs to consider working with the semisextile and semi-square as i see it.. now, i am sure some will view my position as non-trad, but that's how i see it.. feedback on my position is most welcome as maybe i will learn something different from others here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1303
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't time at present for more than a few assorted comments:

Zodiac
The choice of zodiac is irrelevant to primary directions as such, except for directions through the terms. Directions have been used with several different definitions of the zodiac. (Lihin, I do wish you'd stop saying so-called 'sidereal' every time you mention the sidereal zodiac. Like it or not, it's an established term, both in astrological and in academic discourse.)

Rectification/precision
Directions were never used traditionally to time events to the day, or even close. Usually it was just a matter of finding the year of an event or a series of events. (As for transits, I personally have no problem with a margin of a degree one way or the other in the transit of the Sun.)

Revolutions
Irrespective of the ayanamsha (I use Krishnamurti, no secret), the time of a precessed/sidereal revolution will be the same. The Persian originators of the (full-fledged) technique apparently used a sidereal year as well; but even in the tropical revolution, there are strong arguments of an unfortunate year.

My choice of primary direction options
As I said on another thread,

Quote:
I direct by the semi-arc method and use only zodiacal directions, generally without latitude, though I do include conjunctions and oppositions with latitude based on experience. (A zodiacal conjunction/opposition with latitude will be identical to a mundane conjunction/opposition.)


The choice of anaereta
I didn't select the killing planet on the basis of house rulership, but simply went for the malefics, the way Ptolemy does. Personally, I do consider rulerships, particularly in the radical analysis; but I can't bring those up without getting into the tropical/sidereal issue.

William Gustafson's nativity
I have only had time to glance at it, but it seems to me the ascendant must be hyleg. There doesn't seem to be a lot going on by primary direction at the time of his death, though I think the converse direction of the ascendant to the trine of Mars that year has some relevance. But this merits further investigation.

For what it's worth, some earlier authors state that the deaths of young children are due to radical positions rather than directions. I don't know what the age limit would be for considering the effects of directions on that view.
_________________
http://www.martingansten.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3506
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thread is titled Traditional Primary Directions example. Taking a sidereal discussion to the sidereal Forum does not make it less lively.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 374

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lihin writes:
Quote:
Mr Graham Fox has stated, using the death event and primary directions to rectify the chart might assist our understanding of the nativity and has been common practice amongst astrologers who work with primary directions.

This is indeed true, where directions to the angles are concerned, but in fact the point I was trying to make was that regarding the directions Martin used in the case of Abigail, rectification wouldn't seem to be a relevant issue: with interplanetary directions as here, small (10-15 minutes) rectifications will only make a few days difference, and as PDs are not supposed to be timed to the day, I felt that to bring up rectification in this case was a bit of a red herring.
Best wishes
Graham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 374

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tom
Could we clarify: if we make no reference to tropical or sidereal placements (for example, as in Martin's analysis of Abigails directions using "natural" qualities of the planets only and not drawing on house rulerships), we can post in this forum. I we base an analysis exclusively on sidereal considerations, and partciularly if we want to "push" a sideral agenda, a new thread should be created in the sidereal forum. But what if we mention sidereal rulerships in a discussion not centred on that and also mentionaing tropical ones? If Martin had wanted to draw on rulerships for Abigail's case, would he have had to change forum? Which forum should a case dating back to say 300AD fall in (probably no need to mention which zodiac one were using, unless to get into detail). And is not the question of house systems a similar problem? If you work with whole sign houses (as more and more traditional and Hellenistic astrologers seem to be doing), this will give very different dispositors and house positions than Placidus or Alcabitius, for example (ruler of 1 in 12 in the latter can often be conjunct the ascendant in the fomer, which makes a big difference). Should there also be a whole-sign forum? For example; Lihin has given an example in tropical/whole sign on the one hand and sidereal Hipparchos/"classical fields" on the other (not sure what "classical" means, nor why the sidereal example didn't also get whole signs, or vice versa, but never mind). I'm not tryng to be difficult, but I've found it so useful studying traditional techniques set out by tropical astrologers (here in the forum, or in the books of Joseph Crane for example) and simply doing my own little conversions into sidereal, that I don't want to miss out on these. If we want to join in, do we have to stay in the closet?
Yours hopefully
Graham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3506
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thread is titled Traditional Primary Directions Example. The sidereal discussion got way beyond mere mentioning. It began to turn in that direction entirely. I prefer not to wait until it is so far gone that transferring the discussion is way too cumbersome. Plus it gets confusing as to what the topic is supposed to be. So mentioning is one thing. Taking the discussion to a non-traditional topic is another

To repeat the purpose of this Forum was to have a place where non-traditional topics did not intrude and ultimately ruin the Forum. If I were moderating the sidereal Forum I would have no problem with the discussion as it exists and where it is going.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 374

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Sidereal forum Reply with quote

Fair enough, Tom.
I've posted some sidereal considerations on this new example on the Sidereal forum.
But I do not consider sidereal per se to be "non-traditional".
Graham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Let us continue to analyse the charts! Reply with quote

Good evening,

For once, exceptionally, i agree with our Moderator Mr Tom. Smile Further, no demonstration is known to me to date that for example 'Western' (including the Near East) Mediaeval astrological authors worked with primary directions in connexion with other zodiacs than the tropical zodiac of the northern hemisphere, although, as has been mentioned, if the key used is the same there should be no differences in the arcs in RA. If there are such really conclusive demonstrations, i should like to know about their exact sources.

Although i much esteem his published work and fully respect his right to opinions and practices different from others, i lack the conviction requisite to sincerely fulfil Professor Martin Gansten's terminological request concerning 'so-called sidereal (equal sign) zodiacs' and / or 'sidereal' zodiacs for reasons already given.

Since in my feeble knowledge the determination of the Epikratetor (al-Hilaj, Hyleg) is a central technique leading to selection of appropriate primary directions indicating length of life, i (obviously) concur with Professor Gansten's use of it. However, important differences of opinion existed already amongst Hellenistic authors concerning the determination of the Epikratetor, not only of the Kurios, 'Lord of the Nativity'. In my humble experience the Placidus-Porphyrius Magus software developed by Dr Rumen Kolev has been greatly useful to understand these methods.

However, i have another specific question to Professor Gansten and / or to other knowledgeable fellow forum members to help better understand his delineation of the chart:

What are reference sources for Saturn as natural significator of death by drowning, please?

Best regards,

lihin
_________________
Non esse nihil non est.


Last edited by lihin on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 2 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated