47
SolarFire and Janus evaluate correctly that horoscope is preventional. Therefore chosen as hyleg PF. They forget, as Martin said, that Ptolemy recognized as hylegical place 10, 1, 11, 7 and 9 houses. Therefore hyleg is ascendant. Only Porfhyrius Magus hyleg determined correctly. Arab astrologers would consider Moon or PF. Candidates for alchocoden are at Asc - Moon and Mars. Moon gives about 4.9 years of life. Mars gives a little over 7 years. Moon or PF gives as hyleg Saturn. Here it is difficult to assess the effect of the Moon. When you subtract the full years and considering the influence of Mars, we can get into negative numbers. In any event alchocoden shows a small life span (better life force).

48
Martin

Thank you for this example, it was very useful to follow.
Martin Gansten wrote: All of these are calculated in the zodiac, without latitude. Although Jupiter is conjunct Mars within a couple of degrees, the square of a single benefic entering into the mixture is not likely to avert the misfortune.
Also Jupiter is (tropically at least) in detriment and contrary to sect, so we can imagine that Jupiter has little to no benefic power in this chart anyway. Of course sidereally it will still be out of sect and so still has its benefice reduced. If we see the North Node as augmenting what it touches, then again it is just augmenting the general malefice of the Mars Jupiter conjunction anyway.
Last edited by Paul on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Moon aspect to Saturn required

49
Good morning,

The text quoted in my last post is general, the delineation of Saturn referred to later in this thread is specific and depends on a condition, an aspect Moon-Saturn, that is not fulfilled in the natal chart. Here is Prof. Robbins translation followed by Mr Armand's, bold emphasis added, from Tetrabiblos, Book IV:
"... [Saturn] in Virgo and Pisces, or the watery signs, if the moon is in aspect, by drowning and suffocation in water;"
"If Saturn be in Virgo or Pisces, or watery signs, and configurated with the Moon, he will operate death by means of water, by drowning and suffocation;"
In Miss Abigail Gustafson's natal chart the Moon and Saturn are in aversion to each other, not configured. If one thinks the rule be better applied to the solar revolution chart and / or to the death transit chart, Saturn is neither posited in Virgo nor in a water sign in either of them.

My objection, however, to Ptolemy's approach in this Section would often be severe. He based several of his other delineations on the ancient Greek mythological forms of the unequal constellations whilst applying the equal signs of the tropical zodiac of the northern hemisphere. This seems inconsistent to me.

Best regards,

lihin

PS Requesting someone to do homework can be a boomerang. :)
Last edited by lihin on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Non esse nihil non est.

51
Lihin

I do not know why associations of drowning with Saturn are so peculiar to you. Valens say of Saturn that it "causes violent deaths by water, strangulation, imprisonment, or dysentery" - even if it's not always explicit in every author the idea of saturn associating with strangulation or drowning is normally implicit.

I can't help but think you're splitting hairs here.
Last edited by Paul on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

52
varuna2 wrote: Are Mars Jupiter conjunctions generally considered malefic in the system you use?
No, but Jupiter is out of sect and out of dignity, this makes it act more malefically. Its benefic qualities are greatly reduced and some will consider an out of sect out of dignity Jupiter as being an accidental malefic. The conjunction to Mars would then only add to this malefic nature.
I take it that the north node augments whatever it touches - if it touches malefics it increases their malice, and if it touches benefics it increases their benefice. In this case the north node enhances the malefic qualities associated with the conjunction.

I appreciate that not everyone would agree with this interpretation however.

54
varuna2 wrote: Well, in my understanding a Jupiter conjunct the north node is terrible, even if the Jupiter is superb by placement, because the north node will warp the benific traits of Jupiter into malefic traits.
I think classical thinking is that the nodes are hazardous/malefic in general anyway. I am aware that in Jyotish the north node is considered malefic and I suspect that the idea of the nodes being malefic generally is from the same classical thinking. In the medieval literature the north node became more about increase and the south node about decrease so that by the 12-13th centuries in the western tradition there was, in the west, a clearer distinction between the north being benefic and the south malefic, which in turn is likely to be directly from the arabs, who in turn probably got theirs from the greeks and interactions with the indians.

I'm sure the entire thing is from a shared root basically. The thinking is that the north node representing the northward path of the moon links to something positive for (material at least) increase and gain. I suspect this same link is seen negatively by a tradition who may view the whole thing with more spirituality - ie material/physical gain is a negative/malefic thing.

I don't know, I'm just theorising.

Re: Moon aspect to Saturn required

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I'm not entirely sure why I still bother... But briefly: both water generally and drowning specifically have always been associated with Saturn in astrology. Read the texts yourself; I haven't the time to look up references for you. I gave one, to Ptolemy, because I imagined you would be familiar with it (apparently I was wrong), but there are many others.

Other 'watery testimonies' would of course make things even more certain, but neither Ptolemy's Greek nor Robbins's translation reads as though the Moon's aspect is an absolute requirement (and even if they did, other authorities would disagree). Do you read Greek?

Incidentally, there is no Armand translation of the Tetrabiblos that I am aware of. There is an Ashmand translation of a paraphrase of the Tetrabiblos.
In Miss Abigail Gustafson's natal chart the Moon and Saturn are in aversion to each other, not configured.
They are in fact configured by sign in the sidereal chart that I use, with Saturn in Virgo and the Moon in Cancer.
My objection, however, to Ptolemy's approach in this Section would often be severe.
No doubt, and prefaced by 'methinks'. But you (rather aggressively) asked for sources, and I provided one. Whether you agree with it or not is beside the point.

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

(Alexander Pope)
https://astrology.martingansten.com/