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Traditional primary directions example
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: This thread has 'gone tropical' Reply with quote

Good evening,

Although by no means a fundamentalist 'devotee' of the tropical zodiac of the northern hemisphere, methinks we have decided to use it in this thread. A parallel thread has been opened in another Section using a 'sidereal' zodiac.

If one is seeking amusement through astrological infotainment, it is probably a vice to attempt to read texts carefully, notice whether and where they are generally applicable or subject to conditions.

As often stated, there seem to be nearly as many schools of astrology as there are and have been astrological authors. To be a candidate of evaluation as 'correct' or 'less correct', each school should, methinks, be coherent within its own framework. Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos was cited in connexion with Saturn as a possible natural significator for watery deaths. Ptolemy's general text was not applicable and a specific condition required for validity of the other text is not fulfilled by the chart within the 'tropical' framework of this thread.

Of course there are astrological authors who have in detail described the types of death signified by the Great Malefic Kronos. One such author was the Englishman Dr William Joseph Simmonite, 1837 - 1863, very briefly and in my humble opinion too summarily and negatively mentioned on page 24 of Professor Martin Gansten's book Primary Directions. It is perhaps noteworthy that neither Dr Simmonite nor Mr John Worsdale were, unlike many if not most later English astrological authors, under the influence of Mme Helena Petrovna Blavatsky's theosophist movement and that astrology never fully 'died out' in 18th - 19th century England.

On page 135, Sections 451 to 460 of Chapter XXIX The Kind of Death of Dr Simmonite's excellent and pedagogically exceptionally well written 420-page textbook of natal astrology, The Complete Arcana of Astral Philosophy or the Celestial Philospher, much of which is devoted to primary directions, we find the following text concerning Death and Saturn:

Quote:
"If Saturn be in fixed signs, oriental, and in semisquare, square, sesquisquare, or opposition of Sun, he will produce death by suffocation, occasioned either by multitudes of people, or by hanging, or strangulation ; so likewise, should he be occidental and the Moon be succeedent to him, he will operate the same effects.
...
If Saturn or Herschel be in Cancer, Virgo, Scorpius, or Pisces and evilly configurated with the Moon, he will operate death by means of water, intoxication, by drowning and suffocation ; and if found near Argo, by shipwreck."


In the natal chart we are studying, it looks to me that none of the three sets of conditions quoted (excluding Argo) are entirely fulfilled. But perhaps i have overlooked something.

Best regards,

lihin
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Moon aspect to Saturn required Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
. But briefly: both water generally and drowning specifically have always been associated with Saturn in astrology. Read the texts yourself; I haven't the time to look up references for you.




For what it's worth I agree too with Martin's opinion. Fritz Saxl in his Saturn and Melancholy makes this connection saying at page 143 that "further, the assignment to him of tears, of those working with moist objects, of damage and illnesses caused by cold and wet, of the bladder, of glands of death by drowning and so on it is based on the Pythagorean and Orphic interpretation of Kronos as a sea and a river god". CCAG VII, p.215

For this reason the Melancolia engraving shows the sea and ships, because as Melancholy are under Saturn's rulership.



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Konrad



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have thought Saturn being connected to drowning would be obvious even without referring to texts. That is of course, if you understand the fundamentals of planetary significations. Saturn constricts and limits and what is drowning but a limiting of breath via liquid.
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: New Thread Reply with quote

Perhaps a new thread exploring the Length of Life, would be more appropriate. Any Takers?

Many years ago in reading on length of life and discussions at the time, it seemed the Length of Life formulas did not hold up well in most cases. Perhaps that is where the answer would be in these childrens charts. And some brilliant minds here on the forum that can tweak the Length of Life from what has been handed down.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.............

Last edited by james_m on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks for your ongoing posts and insights here martin.. i think it is fair to say primary directions have had a long sleep of a few hundred years and some are trying to stimulate a renewed interest in them, including yourself. personally i am all for it which is my reason for being motivated in learning more about them here on this thread and elsewhere.

Traditional astrology, including the traditional use of directions, has certainly had a long sleep in the west. But I wouldn't say my goal is 'stimulating interest' as much as making the knowledge available to those who want it, and weeding out misunderstandings.

Quote:
getting back to william's chart, regardless of how we define a 'weak' chart, i am sure some 'weak' charts don't end up resulting in death at an early age..

Well, I specifically meant weak in regard to sustaining life.

Quote:
if you feel so inclined, i would be curious to read your impression of daniel laplantes primary directions in the same context.

No, I think I'm done for now, thanks. Other tasks are jostling to get my attention...
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MorningSun



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Moon aspect to Saturn required Reply with quote

Thank you Margherita, that is quite helpful. Even though, read it before, and yes, just read it in Bonatti today, I never actually associated Saturn with Drowning, but your depiction and explanation below make very good sense. Thank you!
I will forever hold that one in my memory.

margherita wrote:
Martin Gansten wrote:
. But briefly: both water generally and drowning specifically have always been associated with Saturn in astrology. Read the texts yourself; I haven't the time to look up references for you.




For what it's worth I agree too with Martin's opinion. Fritz Saxl in his Saturn and Melancholy makes this connection saying at page 143 that "further, the assignment to him of tears, of those working with moist objects, of damage and illnesses caused by cold and wet, of the bladder, of glands of death by drowning and so on it is based on the Pythagorean and Orphic interpretation of Kronos as a sea and a river god". CCAG VII, p.215

For this reason the Melancolia engraving shows the sea and ships, because as Melancholy are under Saturn's rulership.



margherita


Saturn being the Timekeeper, the Grim Reaper, would be a good study! How instrumental in Length of Life? When does he devour it, (time) from a person.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: This thread has 'gone tropical' Reply with quote

lihin wrote:
Although by no means a fundamentalist 'devotee' of the tropical zodiac of the northern hemisphere, methinks we have decided to use it in this thread.

No, we haven't (although you may have). Both zodiacs are certainly traditional, and if anyone has a problem with that, he or she is welcome to start an exclusively tropical thread. In this one, started by me, the choice of zodiac and house system is left to individual participants as stated in the very first post.

As for Ptolemy and the rest, broader reading and reflection would be useful. Methinks.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

feel free to give me feedback on what i conclude with here on laplantes primary direction data. it is always great to get martins feedback, but maybe someone else out their is astrologyland can offer some unique insight i and others might be missing..

i don't know whether one considers the 45- semisquare a trad aspect or not.. your choice of aspects is going to affect the data you get.. there are a couple of primary directions involving venus to the sun in these charts for 87/88.. if one looks again at laplantes chart they can note how in the trop zodiac many planets are in taurus, along with jupiter in libra - both signs ruled by venus.. the sun rules the ascendant.. i believe the movement of venus, or the sun by primary direction is going to have some significance to this chart and i am not going to exclude the 45.. if you think about it, laplante would have to wait another approx 45 years before he could see the direct or converse direction of a square between these 2 in his chart.. that said he would see pd venus directed( or pd sun converse directed) to a conjunct of these two late 20's or thereabouts..

on a different note i was having a conversation on how some similar data shows up in solar arc directions and wonder just how much of what is seen in solar arc directions is actually happening in the primary directions.. i have seen this some in my limited exposure to primary directions.. they are 2 completely different predictive techniques and the motions in the one are the reverse in the other.. a converse primary direction might show up as a direct solar arc direction.. a direct pd might show up as a converse solar arc d.. it is interesting for me, coming from familiarity with solar arc directions..

anyway, back to laplante.. i wonder how much directing planets by primary direction has any relation to the houses they are being directed to in the natal chart.. you see, if you direct the sun to a 45 to venus, this puts the sun in late aries - the 9th house of laplantes natal chart and a house with a connection to the law as i understand it. if you do a converse direction of venus to 45 the natal sun, it will put venus in cancer and the 12th house, which definitely fits with the idea of incarceration as i see it.. now, the sun is the ruler of the ascendant, while venus rules the 3/10 houses.. putting the 10th and 3rd house ruler in the 12th by direction would seem to me to throw a light on the fact laplante is still locked up in a penitentiary somewhere..

i have a lot more questions then i do answers on the primary direction data and how best to use it..

the first pic is converse primary directions for the time of venus 45 to the sun. the 2nd pic is primary direction of the sun to a 45 to venus.. all these primary directions happen between dec 87 the time of the murders to jan 90..the 3rd pic gives the data off morinus software..


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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject: Saturn as anareta (killing planet) Reply with quote

Good morning,

Apparently with insufficient clarity until now, i have attempted to distinguish between two items relevant to the chart we are studying:

1. Saturn as general anareta (killing planet)

2. Saturn as killing planet by drowning in the native chart of Miss Abigail Gustafson.

As to 1., there has no doubt to me that A) Saturn is often the killing planet and, in the chart at hand, the prime candidate. Saturn is described, in analogy to its long cycle round the Earth (geocentric), in many astrological treatises as a killer by chronic diseases like dropsy. As Saturn is described as 'cold and dry', is it consistent to attribute death by excess water to him? Perhaps, as in dropsy, there is insufficient warmth to produce dryness but, on the other hand, Saturn is intrinsically dry.

There have been very many astrological authors in and since antiquity, often copying each other. Methinks it intellectually 'lazy' to accept definitions and delineations by any of them including Ptolemy Smile on blind faith without examination of a) inner coherence b) applicability in astrological practice, and c) effectiveness based on much more than 'anecdotes'. Without such verifications, the writings of even the most ancient and famous authors remain in my humble opinion speculations, at best working hypotheses.

Concerning 2., It seems reasonable to me that other items that Saturn would concur to produce sudden deaths from ex. gr. drowning, a form of suffocation. Such concurrences have not YET been adequately demonstrated, methinks, in the charts we are studying. However, the involvement of Mars, the killer mostly held responsible for sudden events and domicile ruler of the water sign Scorpius, in the event might be helpful.

As to the use of several zodiacs in this thread, Mr Tom's view seems less confusing to me and a parallel thread in the 'sidereal' section has been opened. However, i prefer to leave the thrashing out of this matter to our esteemed Moderators. Smile

Best regards,

lihin

PS To the best of my indeed very feeble knowledge, semisquares and sesquisquares were actively propagated by the famous Renaissance German astronomer-astrologer Herr Johannes Kepler. Whether he 'invented' them is another question.

PPS Thank you, Mr James M. The posted charts now appear nicely formatted to the width of an A4-sized window. To further enhance legibility you might consider setting Morinus' background colour to a somewhat brighter value.
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lihin



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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Kronos God of Water? Reply with quote

Good evening,

Here are links to he Wikipedia article on Kronos and on the Roman Saturnus. Perhaps i have overlooked something but there appear to be no references to "Kronos as a sea and a river God". Perhaps those familiar with ancient Greek literature can give us references to the Orphic texts mentioned by Mr Friedrich Saxl.

Since drowning and strangulation are forms of suffocation, privation of air, it seems for the time being more plausible to me that Kronos' signification of death by suffocation including drowning might be based on his domicile rulership in the Air sign Aquarius as well as on his kingship ('exaltation') in the Air sign Libra and his diurnal rulership of the Air triangle.

Mr Morning Sun has asked about exploring the Length of Life in another thread and is welcome to open one if he wishes, although perhaps this has already been discussed at length in this forum For those particularly interested in this subject, may i suggest investigation of the astrology software Porphyrius Magus developed by the Bulgarian astrologer Dr Rumen Kolev? It contains automated algorithms to determine the Epikratetor and Kurios according to the writings of several Hellenistic and Mediaeval astrological authors in a clear presentation of each graphically showing the steps taken. One can access the original ancient Greek and Latin texts for each author with a mouse click. The methods are complex but, unique amongst astrological software programmes to my feeble knowledge to date, rendered rather clear by Porphyrius Magus. The results DO differ considerably amongst the authors and to some extent depending on the parameters one sets.

Obviously, appropriate use of primary directions to predict death depend on correct determinations of the Epikratetor and the Anareta. In his 800-page Rectification Manual, Dr H of Regulus Astrology drew some preliminary conclusions about methods to determine the Epikratetor and did not rely exclusively on one author.

Best regards,

lihin
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just reading some worsdale at present and note a comment about the death of young people.. he appears to be quoting ptolemy, which may have been thru placidus as martin has mentioned elsewhere, if i have that right...

“But though I have given the hostile primary directions in this geniture with their true
computation as far as the orbs of the benign stars are in operation (which ought to be
strictly regarded in all nativities), yet I would not have the students to entertain ideas that
all children who die in their infant state are destroyed by violent directions to the giver of
life, etc; for those who die in infancy, or before the end of the fifth year, are generally
destroyed by those malignant and destructive positions that are formed in the heavens at
the time of birth, as Ptolemy clearly informs us
, and not by directions which was the case
in this unfortunate geniture, there are also other sidereal causes of the utmost
consequence, which have great and manifest power in destroying life within the above
period: …”
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That quote is from Worsdale's Celestial Philosophy. I believe he is basing it on Ptolemy's chapter from Tetrabiblos titled something like, IF the CHild Shall Be Reared. It is one confusing chapter.
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lihin,

I mention length of life study, as No one mentioned it. I never have wanted to learn the methods, as I don't want to have that knowledge and ability. I do not want to see it in a clients chart, nor my loved ones.

Its rather backwards to do primary directions without first making the determination from the NATAL CHART, that a short life is indicated.

My inquiry was to ask those that are familiar with the length of life formulas, if both children's charts indicated a short life using the trad length of life formulas.

I see the dangerous and volatile aspects in both charts on that day, and in the solar return in Abigail's chart , however I see similar and even worse aspects that did not lead to death.

So the question remains, what is the definitive indicator of death in looking at these charts.

I do not have experience in death charts to say yes this is it and here is why.....someone who has experience as in all of these previous charts of death, they could say: the same indicators are there. (for those that have made a study of it..) I have not.

If the length of life indicates a short life, then I can see where the aspects, PDs would possibly lead to death on that day. If not, then the chain of conjunctions, houses, and signs, SR, transits, in my opinion didn't definitively state this is a death chart.

I have Robert Zoller's class material, on determining length of life and there is Ptolemy, but as I previously mentioned I don't want to learn it, don't want to see it.

I was curious if anyone felt they could say for sure, they could have predicted, from the NATAL CHART, such an early end to life.

If not, then the premise of "if it's not promised in the natal chart, it's just not going to happen. " would not hold true.

Or: Sidereal is better than the Placidus, or whole signs; does one method show the young death better?? Is this a reason to switch methods?

Or: length of life formulas work, don't work?

Just some thoughts.

NOTE: Did anyone think it's odd that this thread currently discussing the horrendous death of such young children, in the New England area, in December, and Now we have a mass killing of children in Newtown, Ct. Odd I think.
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MorningSun



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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:16 am    Post subject: Great info Reply with quote

James,

I just noticed your post, after I posted mine.

That is the POINT I have been making throughout this thread, the short life should show in the Natal, just as your quote states!!
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