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Traditional primary directions example
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: 'Sat Guru' Reply with quote

Good morning,

Indeed, as Mr Morning Sun has underscored in his last post, as soon as one becomes detached from the astrological apron-strings of a 'guru', one notices during all epochs a bewildering variety of astrological definitions, techniques, opinions and schools including basics like the zodiacs, which planets and points, domification systems, etc. It is not difficult to become bollixed and / or to abandon the 'pseudo-science' altogether as a hodgepodge of fanciful speculations.

This confusion coin has another side: the call to develop ones own mental faculties, to learn judgement and discrimination, recalling that, to distinguish it from mantic arts, astrology is called 'judicial'. This is a path of Hermès that helps de-velop the 'inner guide' or 'Sat Guru'. On this path, in my humble experience Neo-Platonic or other 'spiritual orgasms', although 'real' and quite pleasant, can at times be more a hindrance than a help.

Humans have, both quantitatively and qualitatively, vastly varying mental faculties. For this reason, even if several astrologers share a similar 'school', their applications of it will vary. In view of my mental limits, my approach is to prefer simpler solutions involving fewer variables, unless other alternatives can be demonstrated effective by more than mere anecdotal evidence.

If one does not want to learn and even chooses not to see a particular technique like determination of length of life and its consequences, perhaps Hellenistic and Mediaeval astrologies are not ones 'cup of tea'. Indeed, these realistic astrologies are far removed from the world of permanent progress suggested by contemporary advertising with its pastel-coloured, good-better-best intent to keep everyone in a continual mood for buying and consumption.

Best regards,

lihin
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Theories Reply with quote

Lihin,

I am a Mrs. MorningSun!! Rather than “abandon the 'pseudo-science' altogether as a hodgepodge of fanciful speculations” I find it is the astrologers job to wade through all of these differing techniques to find the ones that work and apply to the world in which we live in. To test these techniques to see if they bear fruit or not. This forum does that, and gives the benefit of much experience and knowledge of many charts, many people to test the theories we have been handed down. There are pearls of wisdom everywhere. I have an open mind and test the beliefs to what is actually happening in a persons life. The actual events.


Lihin Quote: “If one does not want to learn and even chooses not to see a particular technique like determination of length of life and its consequences, perhaps Hellenistic and Mediaeval astrologies are not ones 'cup of tea'.”

To discount the entire Hellenistic and Medieval techniques based on one area, would be ridiculous. I just happen to believe that only God knows and should know the time of a person’s death. In addition to I am a worrier and hugely empathic, it would kill me to see that in a chart. I have many clients and a huge family, it would tear me up inside. I doubt if any astrologer would tell a client such a thing! The mind is a very powerful manifester.

Lihin Quote: “Indeed, these realistic astrologies are far removed from the world of permanent progress suggested by contemporary advertising with its pastel-coloured, good-better-best intent to keep everyone in a continual mood for buying and consumption”

Do you honestly think that modern astrology is about “being pastel coloured” ? I have clients that are going through very difficult times, with very difficult aspects. I help them in the timing of choosing when to act, when not to act, when the difficult times will be over, give them warnings not to engage in any altercations or arguments that they will be facing, to stay safe and out of harms way, as dangerous aspects surround them, (also in their natal charts). These are very REAL and serious situations, real life and I assure you, it is not “pastel” by any means, nor “feel good” astrology. I give them work arounds to difficult situations, tell them to stall on any action, when they have malefic aspects and to wait until the planets are in a more beneficial house/aspects where they will have the upper hand. It works.

Regarding Hellenistic and Medieval astrology. The theories developed were from a very different world with very different beliefs, perspectives and very LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of the world.

Our world is very different today. One must take the context of the the world in which they lived in, in which they developed their theories. As an example, an archaeological dig in Greece found many dinosaur bones. Huge thigh bones, with it, the belief that they thought these were bones from “Human Giants” giving rise to Gods that were Giants, mythologies that matched the world in which they lived in their limited view of the world at the time.

Most theories very fear based of what they did not understand, plagues, early death, etc, transmission of diseases, etc. Mythologies and theories based on false beliefs of the world in which they lived.

Not only has Man’s knowledge increased, but humanity’s Consciousness has. The framework of beliefs and theories then HAS to change. They say when the student is ready, the teacher appears.

Do you think the discovery of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were coincidence? I find they actually support the Medieval and Hellenistic configurations. Uranus and Pluto are as explosive in nature as Mars and Saturn. Try them out, you may discover something new.

I continually test these theories and find it incredible that both modern and Medieval, Hellenistic, give much the same configurations. It is quite interesting. Try testing Uranus out, it truly does takes things away from people, removes things out of their lives, very, very explosive based on the house and sign it is in, as well as aspects. As well as the positive energy, of bringing things into peoples lives. Test it out and see for yourself. As well as Pluto, it is emerging lately, showing itself as indeed having ties to death, mass death, power conflicts, configured with the Moon, very intense power struggles of an emotional nature.

Test it out, before I actually accept a theory, I test it out, to me I am still and probably will forever still be testing all the theories out, to see if they hold true in many, many cases. And this forum is the place to see what others have tested out and find to hold true. That is why I come to this forum to broaden my experience and beliefs and to gain by the benefit of others experience. To keep learning and improving.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lihin,

often i find your posts a distraction in that they take away from the more focused nature of some of these threads.. it is why i believe many of your musings are better suited to the philosophy section, then this one for example which is supposed to be focused on primary directions.. while i am not a moderator, i am curious if you can see how your last post here ends up being a diversion from the main focus of this thread?


morning sun
,

i just finished reading an interesting slice of work from john worsdale.. it was interesting in that he seems to suggest the natal chart will tell us if one has a short life, but then he proceeds to do the primary directions for a child that dies at the age of 2! i am not sure what he was trying to do in the example, but if you believe the natal chart tells of a very short life, then why bother with the primary directions?

i had not thought of your connection to us looking at the charts of young people in this primary direction exercise and the events in newtown, ct.. that is clearly a bit of a coincidence and somewhat disturbing as well. i think one has to have a strong stomach to contemplate death, especially when involving young people.. life doesn't seem fair sometimes and it does make one wonder if there is a god.. thanks for sharing..
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Celestial Philosophy the point of the first example is to show how an early death is NOT shown in directions, but in the nativity itself. But as James points out, Worsdale then claims he predicted death, a year before it happened, to occur at or about age 2. The child was killed in an accident 9 days before his second birthday.

James point is that Worsdale is on one hand telling us the nativity alone will show an early death (before age 5) and directions might not. But how does he square this with his claim of a spot on prediction? It does seem contradictory.

Worsdale tells us, that Ptolemy clearly explains how all this happens, but he does not cite a chapter. The reason is that at this time, according to Worsdale, there were no English translations of Tetrabiblos, so he made his own from the original Greek (why, if he could read Greek? He didn't publish it). Curiously he refers to the title in Latin, Quadriparte, when he says he has a Greek original. He must have had one. Luke Broughton claims he copied the English translation by hand. Since Broughton was born about the same time or slightly after Worsdale died, he would have had the permission of John Worsdale Jr.

Be all that as it may, Ptolemy does have a chapter on this subject titled in the Robbins translation: Of Children That Are Not Reared. And in that Chapter (Book III Chapter 9 - Robbins), Ptolemy discusses indications in the nativity that the native will not long survive. And if we follow those instructions (assuming we can decipher exactly what it is that Ptolemy is trying to tell us), predictions may be safely made.

This should not be surprising even if distasteful, since authority after authority tell us that nothing may be predicted that is not in the natal chart. It's just in these cases, according to Ptolemy, the natal chart is all that we need.
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Natal Chart Reply with quote

james_m wrote:



morning sun
,

but if you believe the natal chart tells of a very short life, then why bother with the primary directions?..


Hello James,

It is not only "if I believe the natal chart tells of a short life....", but "all that a person will enounter, achieve, etc, comes from the Radix" IS THE FOUNDATIONAL UNDERPINNINGS of Astrology, is it not?

Please let me know, as I may be believing a premise that has been repeated over and over again, rather not believing yet, but still determining.

The sequence of chart interpretation is to begin with the Natal Chart, THEN determine when those events will become active, and apply using PD's, Profections, Progressions, Transits, etc.

I realize this is a thread on Primary Directions, but the first step has not been determined. And yes you are right, Lihin's and my comments probably should be in the Philosophy section. However, changing it now would tend to take away from the context.

There are theories, (the Theosophists) that believe it is possible to overcome and rise above ones chart. And the other group of Free Will to choose ones fate. These I am still testing. They are huge philosophical questions or the attributes of the planets and aspects, directions, are not coming true due to our understanding and we need to find new interpretations or is it, due to overcoming ones chart, free will, divine intervention such as when people pray for an individual? These are all things I consider when looking at a chart.

PS. Thanks for your reply regarding the PD's, I appreciate that.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That the thread is no longer on topic is really not a decent reason to continue being off topic as it encourages others to do so. Also starting over in the philosophy section is a way to clarify the thinking.

The points raised about the nativity and subsequent primary directions are valid, but fate, free will etc, are stretching things a bit. People that are interested in the original topic will be driven off rather than wade trough lengthy and largely irrelevant posts and that isn't right.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 959
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Theories Reply with quote

Quote:
Regarding Hellenistic and Medieval astrology. The theories developed were from a very different world with very different beliefs, perspectives and very LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of the world...


Most astrologers today have a very limited understanding of classical philosophy.
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Worsdales account Reply with quote

Tom,

Yes, I totally agree with you. Well said and put. Yes I am familiar with Ptolemy's chapter, "Of Children That Are Not Reared. And in that Chapter (Book III Chapter 9 - Robbins), Ptolemy discusses indications in the nativity that the native will not long survive. "

I just wanted to know if anyone had followed those indications and found them to be true. The reason I do not want to do that, is because it gets assimilated in my subconscious, and I will then see it clearly in a chart, if it is there, and I don't want to.

Tom, you once remarked that you knew of people who could predict from a chart by looking at it, and you weren't sure how they could do it. I have read, sometimes voraciously, many of the classics, Medieval, Hellenistic, etc. Somehow it all gets assimilated and my unconscioius mind organizes it and when I look at a chart, things just absolutely pop out very clearly, before I even start to methodically, examine the houses, aspects, configurations, etc. So that is why I dont want to read it, but would like to know if someone else has and if the Natal Charts do indeed show a short life.

In addition, My sisters son only lived 12 days, I don't really want to see that again. (many years ago)
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Primary Directions Reply with quote

Tom,

In my mind, the conversation has EVERYTHING to do with Primary Directions.

That you cannot use them willy nilly, after the fact of the event. Its a huge premise.

Now to post an example that someone says: The natal chart predicts a short life, and here are the primary directions that show when and how the early life is extinguished. That is the POINT of these conversations and feedback. Very relevant I believe to the use of Primary Directions, which would be very helpful, IF the natal chart indicated it.

The perplexing issue of WHY these children had an early life in THIS THREAD has not been determined as of yet, as I see it.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morning Sun wrote:

Quote:
And yes you are right, Lihin's and my comments probably should be in the Philosophy section. However, changing it now would tend to take away from the context.


My remarks were directed at the above.
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: PD's interpretation Reply with quote

I believe that Martin choose the correct charts. In my opinion, both charts of the children do NOT have a hyleg indicating a short life. Martin earlier in the thread suggested this possibility and I agree with him, at least I believe it was Martin that indicated that. No one was willing to come right out and say that.

That is if you do not use the Ascendant, and you follow Ptolemy’s rules.

I will venture my take on this, even though I do not feel as qualified as all those in this thread when it comes to hylegs and PD’s, ((I haven’t even learned how to do them yet, but I want to learn.)


Williams chart is entirely ruled by Mars trining the Asc, in the chain of rulerships. A very exalted Mars in Capricorn in the 4th house (endings). Saturn, the ruler of that placement is also very exalted in Libra. Unfortunately, both of the malefic rule this chart. The PD’s as well as the solar return and transits do bear this out.

Abigails chart also does not have a hyleg, in my opinion If one uses the Asc. The Sun is opposing the Asc in the 6th but on the descendant. The Sun is also squaring the Mars/Jupiter conjunction in the 4th hse (endings), with Jupiter also squaring the Asc, expanding (increasing)/combining Mars malefic energy to the Ascendant, via Jupiter conjunction, and Jupiters square to the Asc. In Abigails life I believe this is not the first time a critical event happened as her SR in 1981 was also very dangerous.

Regarding Lihin replies, yes, he can be arrogant, pompous, condescending and the like, but sometimes they can be quite enlightening to the conversation, he is also learning by our replies as I am by his and all others opinions and responses I rather welcome others opinions and perspectives.
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a neat little book called "The Astrology of Accidents" by CEO Carter. This is actually a statistical study done on a collection of accident charts that Carter had compiled.

Carter's conclusion (page 49 of the 1960 edition) "These (the charts) seem to indicate clearly that peril from water is shown by an affliction of Neptune either to the ruler or to the lord or occupant of the 4th

However, Saturn, not Neptune, would seem to be the chief anaretic agent in drowning...."


Geoffrey
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Theories Reply with quote

tom reads my comment correctly on the slice of worsdale i referred to.. he comes across as contradictory in it all.

morning sun the quote of mine, aside from being shortened to remove the context is actually referring to worsdale, not you! let me quote the slice you offered without the rest of the context again :
[quote="MorningSun"]
james_m wrote:



morning sun
,

but if you believe the natal chart tells of a very short life, then why bother with the primary directions?..

that is in reference to worsdale, not you.. go back and read my post to get the proper context of it all.. but in reference to your response to me here, i can give you a response.
MorningSun wrote:


Hello James,

It is not only "if I believe the natal chart tells of a short life....", but "all that a person will enounter, achieve, etc, comes from the Radix" IS THE FOUNDATIONAL UNDERPINNINGS of Astrology, is it not?


indeed! this i don't think you will find anyone disagreeing with either..

speaking of quotes that are shortened or out of context, it would be nice if the author of the quote could be included when folks are quoting others too, so a person could go back and see the context if they wanted to..

the example below is actually a quote from morning sun, but you would need to pay attention or do some reading to know this..

zoidsoft wrote:
Quote:
Regarding Hellenistic and Medieval astrology. The theories developed were from a very different world with very different beliefs, perspectives and very LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of the world...


Most astrologers today have a very limited understanding of classical philosophy.


astrologers could be accused of having a very limited understanding of the modern world too i suppose. the context is very important to understand, especially if one is going to rely on techniques used from the past. mind you there is a thread that runs thru the history of astrology that ought to tie it all together somehow. i tend to think most astrologers have certain strengths and weaknesses that interfere with their ability to understand what they are doing fully. i would say this about the experts too, as while they may be an expert in one area, their expertise can potentially exclude them from having a more rounded and balanced view on the many in's and out's to doing astrology in the present moment.

MorningSun wrote:
The sequence of chart interpretation is to begin with the Natal Chart, THEN determine when those events will become active, and apply using PD's, Profections, Progressions, Transits, etc.

I realize this is a thread on Primary Directions, but the first step has not been determined.


i tend to think an astrologer will look at the natal chart and quickly imagine primary directions, or solar arc directions when they see close connections like conjunctions in the natal. i would do this without actually having to put up a 2nd chart when angles to planets form close aspects. i don't know that i am all that different then other astrologers, but this is what i do.. mind you, i am not offering my views and would be aghast at the idea of some astrologer offering a negative view on a chart that would be harmful to the person. i think of astrology as meant to be of benefit to a person.. also, i am not looking for death when i look at charts!

to me this thread is a study on primary directions. one can ask when one decides to examine them in individual charts. i don't have an immediate response for the real world.. in this thread i have worked with 2 other examples connected to the first chart that martin offered in this thread. it happened to engage very little conversation in regard to the primary directions, but a lot of conversation on a separate interest involving death in very young persons charts.. i don't have an answer for this and i am loath to think one can see an early death just looking at the natal chart.. however, that is what some authorities from the past are suggesting.. worsdale is a bit odd in echoing this same sentiment, while offering primary directions in an example on the death of a 2 year old regardless..
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:55 pm    Post subject: Death by Drowning Reply with quote

Geoffrey,

Being the modern astrologer that I am, yes, I could make a very good case regarding Neptune in both of these charts. (opposing Asc in one, and in the 4th in another. However as this is the Traditional and Ancient Techniques,Posts, I try to keep those out of it as the Traditional Astrologers do not use Neptune and I believe it annoys them.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The outer planets are not forbidden here. However the objection that I have and other traditionalists have is their use to the near exclusion of everything else. If it is part of a delineation - fine. Just don't make it all of it.

I once attended a lecture where the speaker used a chart said to be that of the Emperor Nero. The object of the lecture was to show how a contemporary of Nero's would have read the chart. He put up a chart that, understandably only had the 7 classical planets. The vast majority of the audience was seriously confused without Uranus Neptune and Pluto in the chart because those three planets represented about 80% of what they knew. That is what I want to avoid.
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