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Traditional primary directions example
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Sorry Reply with quote

Hello James,

Yes, I know you were not referring to me, very clearly. I just assumed everyone read the previous post and knew it was worsdale. Sorry, I try to save room in a post, not to make it too long.

And yes, I see that my statement does look like part of Lihin's quote, didn't look that way as I was typing, but I see now, Sorry.

I need some hints on using the quote button, for quoting several people. Sometimes my brain goes faster than my typing and I type pretty fast.

Sorry again, will be more careful . Thanks so much for clarifying it for others and pointing it out to me. Very helpful
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2638
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hopefully varuna and my private message to you will help with the quoting morning sun!

here is the chart of the child that died close to their 2nd birthdate that was given as an example in the slice of john worsdale literature i had read from last night and touched on earlier today on this thread, for anyone that wants to consider the chart.

a topic that could be discussed around primary directions more at length might be the difference in the positions given in zodiac, verses their mundane position.. solar fire has an option that helps give you the positions in mundane, by treating the ascendant in a chart as zero aries and showing the planets as positioned according to their mundane position, as opposed to their zodiac position.. as you can see in this chart with james attersals birth chart on the inside in zodiac, while the outer wheel is in mundane - the positions are sometimes quite different and a distance away from where they would be in one or the other system. while attersals rising saturn appears to not square mars in the zodiac chart, mars is squaring saturn and the ascendant in the mundane chart - outer wheel...

this chart also gives declinations for one to see how planets that don't immediately appear to connect by zodiac, do indeed connect with the declination of these planets.. take a look at saturn to mercury in zodiac verses in mundane, but also take a look at how they form a parallel in the declinations.. parallels, and contra parallels are yet another conversation for folks getting interested in doing primary directions as it is yet another option for one to consider including when doing primary directions..


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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Death by Drowning Reply with quote

MorningSun wrote:
Geoffrey,

Being the modern astrologer that I am, yes, I could make a very good case regarding Neptune in both of these charts. (opposing Asc in one, and in the 4th in another. However as this is the Traditional and Ancient Techniques,Posts, I try to keep those out of it as the Traditional Astrologers do not use Neptune and I believe it annoys them.


The first sentence of my quote was included for completeness. The second sentence was the point of my posting. Lithin doubted Saturn as the anaretic in cases of drowning and wanted some 'authority' on it. Here it is - evidence from actual charts gathered and analysed by a highly respected and capable astrologer.

While Carter may not be 'traditional' in the sense that he died less than three hundred years ago, I do not see that as a factor here. The fact that he used the term 'anaretic' indicates that he identified Saturn as a primary killer in drowning in a 'traditional' sense.

Geoffrey
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope I will not corrupt the thread by posting my own example since I found my chart very similar [at least in planet's position regarding the horizon] to the one Martin posted in the beginning of the thread.

This is my own chart:


Primary Directions:


Around age 4, when Mars as promitor at about 6 Scorpio hit by primary motion a square with my Sun [hyleg] at 2 Aquarius I almost died.
I had [as I was told] broken Large Intestine and problems with defecation and I fell into unconscious state several times out of pressure and constrictions. In one of that cases physicians thought that I am lost.

This is related to the event regarding Sun square Mars. I have some documents which says that these events took place in 1987, which would say that I was 3 years old, but my parents say that this is actually 1988 and is either an error in the documents or it is some other intervention in the hospital prior that crisis year.

In the same time, Ascendant moving by secondary motion, that is, in direction of the zodiac, encountered opposition to the Sun around the same age. I'm taking approximation of a degree per year.

Now, nothing related to my body happened at age 16 when Saturn by primary motion hit square to Sun, though, this was very, very hard period for me and my "esse" [state of being] if you know what I mean.
Although, my father had health problems in that time, and very great life crisis.

I'm a total beginner with the primary directions, so if some of the more experienced here find this example interesting, let feel free to comment.
_________________
My personal blog:
http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/
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"Iunge testimonia & iudica ex superabundanti" ~ Cardano


Last edited by Ile on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Petr



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Czech Republic

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ptolemy says:

The consideration of the length of life takes the leading place among inquiries about events following birth, for, as the ancient says, it is ridiculous to attach particular predictions to one who, by the constitution of the years of his life, will never attain at all to the time of the predicted events.

It is therefore appropriate to be able to answer the question of what age the native will live. This information is for us, not for the client. It has long been doing research on ancient astrological methods. I examine their potential, truthfulness.
Sample of 100 children was studied in question 3 category of birth. It's not much, but it can make a statement.
Functionality and methods hyleg alkochoden and almudebit is from my view and experience demonstrated. Course, the result may not always be perfect.
Variations may occur due to incorrect birth time, poor estimation or insufficient knowledge of the properties of individual elements of the chart, and finally a number of circumstances, that we may not be at the level of our knowledge or understanding available. It is important to use these methods with caution, as possible indicators and not absolute. This is an estimate attributed vital force and not a determination of whether a child or a person dies near specified time.
Even if they met all the conditions given category does not mean that child has to die, but is a high probability that it will be strongly handicapped.
Modern medicine can rescue and prolong life in many cases where it at an earlier time was not possible. The question is in what quality.
My thesis is available at (unfortunately only in my native language):

http://fragmenty.johannes.cz/

As for the primary direction.

Technique primary direction had originally dual purpose:

1) Description of human life from birth to death. It was a continuous the time course.
The basic method used to determine the ruler of the time (chronocrators) for the whole period of life.
The basis was the primary direction to the term and the second factor has been applied primary direction to the body and aspect of planets.

2) Determination of the only events in a person's life and that of his death. In this case it is only a single discrete time period. Ptolemy writes about this in part III. Tetrabiblos.

The first basic use was gradually forgotten.
Primary directions(described in point 1) are the first step prediction for many ancient astrologers. Similarly Firdaria or other techniques. They are inextricably bound up with the solar revolution, profection when prediction.
Primary directions are many types. I am using the most primary zodiacal directions without latitude to the angles and I add, when I rectify birth time, mundo parallels. Key Naiboda gives me the best results.
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Petr



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Czech Republic

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, a little reminder. Stars can act as anareta. Look at the primary direction Aldebaran and Antares in the chart Abigail. Both stars have the character of Mars.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2638
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ile,

i note pluto is in a direct square to your natal sun from 2 degree scorpio 05... when mars gets directed to the square of the sun, it also conjoins pluto.. i realize some folks don't use these outer dwarf planets, but i am passing this along, as i happened to take a look for myself..

here is a bastardization of one thing i do when i look at an astrology chart. i note the degree difference between things.. the reason i refer to it as a 'bastardization of things' is it is a simplified 1 degree= 1 year formula that seems to bear fruit.. using your chart, the 4 degree gap shows up not only from mars to sun- 90 + 4, but also with mars to pluto = 4, descendant to sun = 4, ascendant axis to pluto = 90 + 4, pof to midheaven = 4, and etc. etc.
this is a type of solar arc direction with the eyeball that i am doing.. as i was saying earlier on in this thread, there are some direct connections between primary directions and solar arc directions, however those who practice primary directions exclusively seem loath to want to acknowledge this and those who practice solar arc directions exclusively without looking into primary directions, will not be aware of this.. at any rate, it is something for anyone who has taken the time to read this thread or my post to consider and explore further..
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 355

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James writes:
Quote:
one thing i do when i look at an astrology chart. i note the degree difference between things.. it is a simplified 1 degree= 1 year formula that seems to bear fruit.


This seems very sensible, and I do it too, as I'm sure many do - for one thing, it's a good and quick way to make a rough guess at what primary directions are worth checking, even though of course many of the leads will turn out to be false once it's all expressed in semi-arcs in RA.

Graham
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
Ile,

i note pluto is in a direct square to your natal sun from 2 degree scorpio 05... when mars gets directed to the square of the sun, it also conjoins pluto.. i realize some folks don't use these outer dwarf planets, but i am passing this along, as i happened to take a look for myself..

here is a bastardization of one thing i do when i look at an astrology chart. i note the degree difference between things.. the reason i refer to it as a 'bastardization of things' is it is a simplified 1 degree= 1 year formula that seems to bear fruit.. using your chart, the 4 degree gap shows up not only from mars to sun- 90 + 4, but also with mars to pluto = 4, descendant to sun = 4, ascendant axis to pluto = 90 + 4, pof to midheaven = 4, and etc. etc.
this is a type of solar arc direction with the eyeball that i am doing.. as i was saying earlier on in this thread, there are some direct connections between primary directions and solar arc directions, however those who practice primary directions exclusively seem loath to want to acknowledge this and those who practice solar arc directions exclusively without looking into primary directions, will not be aware of this.. at any rate, it is something for anyone who has taken the time to read this thread or my post to consider and explore further..


Hi James,

Thank you for sharing your views regarding my chart.
I don't use outer planets but don't make war against those who uses them.

There are some striking transits to my personal points which are shown by the outer planets, though I was able pretty well to note them with the traditional techniques.

For example, somewhere in the early February when Pluto conjunct my natal Mercury, I become strongly involved into traditional astrology, and almost obsessed with it, leaving all else and engaged myself in intense studies from the early morning till the late night everyday since Very Happy
Now, this kind of passion is usual description for Pluto; also the keyword 'transformation', deep studies [Pluto/Mercury] and etc.

I'm betraying my traditional fellows at this moment, but speaking symbolically this pretty much fits the whole story Very Happy

As I said, I'm doing good with using only the 5 planets and the 2 Lights, but I really don't want to be with a fixed opinions that this is the only workable approach.
Though, I must admit I have problems with some descriptions of the houses, like 8th for sex and transformation and etc., just because I can't find any logic of this fitting into the whole story of house interrelationship.

Another interesting 'coincidence' with the modern planets is that I started to be interested in Astrology (back than in modern) when Uranus transited 9th house.

As I said, I have back-up for this into my favorite traditional techniques.
For example, since we are at primary directions. This year Sun through primary motion came to the place of Mercury. So, Sun as almuten of 10th, coming to Mercury ruler of 3rd, can also indicate my engagement into learning, collecting, researching, using my reasoning faculties and even pursuing this as a career (Sun almuten of 10th).

For the Uranus thing. When I started with Astrology, the zodiacal releasing of Spirit (actions, work, the intellectual place), came in the 10th from Fortune, which is indicator of actions, profession and etc., and here I have Jupiter as ruler of natural 9th (astrology) alongside Mercury, natural significator of astrologers.

So, it is a matter of symbolism in my opinion [for my current humble opinion Astrology is a symbolical interpretation of the astronomical events into metaphysical, or if you will, philosophical language]. I choose to use this symbolism and for me it works and it is right. But I do not fight with the others who use different approach [though I must admit I was in temptation several times to do that]. I really think there is no need for that.

Regards,
Ile
_________________
My personal blog:
http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/
-------
"Iunge testimonia & iudica ex superabundanti" ~ Cardano
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2638
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ile wrote:


So, it is a matter of symbolism in my opinion [for my current humble opinion Astrology is a symbolical interpretation of the astronomical events into metaphysical, or if you will, philosophical language]. I choose to use this symbolism and for me it works and it is right. But I do not fight with the others who use different approach [though I must admit I was in temptation several times to do that]. I really think there is no need for that.

Regards,
Ile


thanks for your comments Ile.. i especially like this quote.. i agree with your line of thinking for the rest of your comments too.. it's up to the individual astrologer to find what works and has meaning and to work out from this vantage point.. the beauty of a more traditional approach is it is steeped in some type of tradition that has given a lot of meaning to other astrologers down thru history.. if we were able to go back in history it might be that we would find much diversity and variance in these past astrologers approach and indeed i think that is what we find.. i myself am into diversity and letting each person find meaning in their own personal way. i think this is what we are all doing here to the best of our abilities.. thanks again for sharing.
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Kevin Leo



Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 2
Location: China

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Back to Basics Reply with quote

MorningSun wrote:
Back to Basics, the deaths, short length of life should be in the Radix. The Natal Chart should show it. It is a maternal familial death of both children. Their destiny is strongly tied to their mothers fate.

The closest explanation I feel, is Petr's below, but still not there. We are missing something. An opportunity to discover a new concept in interpretation is presenting itself to us. I don't think we've figured it out yet.

Petr wrote:
SolarFire and Janus evaluate correctly that horoscope is preventional. Therefore chosen as hyleg PF. They forget, as Martin said, that Ptolemy recognized as hylegical place 10, 1, 11, 7 and 9 houses. Therefore hyleg is ascendant. Only Porfhyrius Magus hyleg determined correctly. Arab astrologers would consider Moon or PF. Candidates for alchocoden are at Asc - Moon and Mars. Moon gives about 4.9 years of life. Mars gives a little over 7 years. Moon or PF gives as hyleg Saturn. Here it is difficult to assess the effect of the Moon. When you subtract the full years and considering the influence of Mars, we can get into negative numbers. In any event alchocoden shows a small life span (better life force).


Martin"s Statement: " There is a little more in the profections, primarily Mars on the MC squaring the ascendant, with the Sun (ruler of the ascendant in my, sidereal, book) opposing this Mars by transit."

Also gives a good explanation using profections. Still no cigar though, Back to the Natal Chart.

Lihin,

I also agree with Lihin, regarding Saturn and drowning. I is puzzling me also. Saturn in Virgo, earth sign also. Saturn is generally associated with cold and dry. Saturn with the Moon, the moon giving the water element, not Saturn, then I could relate to Saturn/Moon and drowning, that would make sense Perhaps cold muddy water, which I have seen/read as a significator of Saturn. . But Saturn in Virgo, not so much.

Williams chart is a bit easier to see his fate as Martin stated, it is very weak, as both charts are, however I still don't feel there is an adequate explanation for an early death FROM THE NATAL CHART.

Its got to be there and very clearly, for such a horrific, shocking death, which made major news in the area.

In Abigails, Solar Return, eight days after her death Mars is conjunct her Natal Saturn in Virgo, a very violent aspect, I could also make a good case for Pluto and Saturn, however, most of you would discount that. I do have to say, even though Pluto is not longer a planet, I do find lately, the theme of death with Pluto coming up all over the place lately. If many of you use points, fixed stars and any number of lots, why would it be so difficult to associate Pluto with death or even use Pluto. Lately its been very active in pointing death out to me. Any one else? something to look at possibly. I have an opened mind.

Its in the Natal, I don't believe we have discovered the reason yet, but close. Any other Theories out there? We are as intelligent as Ptolemy, Valens, Morin, Lilly, and as experienced. Ptolemy wasn't even an astrologer! He sat back and reviewed others work, and made his own conclusions, albeit pretty good ones. But ....... there is more to this, we just have to keep at it, and we may discover something new!


Very agree with you!!!
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Hsn1983



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 44
Location: Home

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish someone can explain what these directions mean :
Saturn trine converse direction to sun "my hyleg"
Mars sextile converse direction to ascendant
Both are malefic directions happen in 2018 , Mars is the out of sect malefic in my tenth house Aries conjuntcs MC Saturn 2:45 scorpio. These two planets will be in capricorn my seventh house in my 2018 solar return chart squaring the natal sun&Mars in Aries

Thank you
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