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John Worsdale's Prediction Methods
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:59 am    Post subject: John Worsdale's Prediction Methods Reply with quote

Over a different thread or maybe two, we discussed John Worsdale and his prediction methods. For those who don’t know him, Worsdale wrote and published a book circa 1828, the year of his death (we think) titled Celestial Philosophy or Genethliacal Astronomy Containing the Only True Method of Calculating Nativities Made Plain and Easy. In the 1790s he also published a book that is sometimes confused with this one titled Celestial Astrology. They are different books

Celestial Philosophy contains over 30 charts with explanations and almost all of them are concerned with death. However I think the book has more value than a manual for predicting “dissolution,” as he liked to call it. It seems if we can predict death with Worsdale’s methods, we ought to be able to predict other things as well. This thread then will be devoted to Worsdale, examples of his work, and eventually application of his methods to events other than death closer to our own time.

We can add other techniques to support what we’re doing. But support is not a synonym for substitution. I also don’t wish this thread to become sidetracked debating whether or not he agrees with this or that particular author. He is what he is or was what he was. End of story.

Some of his methods are basic and the sort of thing we’ve all heard before. The rest, to me anyway are just common sense. Our goal is to see if they have value.

1) Delineate the natal chart. We’re looking for death so look for the death stuff in the chart to see if the native will be long lived or not.
2) Select the hyleg. The hyleg is the giver of life and is usually the Sun or Moon. We’ll explain as we go along.
3) Observe the condition of the Sun and Moon whether either one is hyleg or not. Weak luminaries are an indication of a short life.
4) Look for other afflicted planets that engage the Sun and/or Moon. They are dangerous to life as well.
5) Note the condition of the part of fortune. Among other things, it represents the body.
6) Do not ignore the ASC or its ruler. Like the POF they are the body.
7) Note primary directions to hyleg and other things mentioned above. If several harmful directions afflict one or more of those significators within a short period, the possibility of death is strong.
8 ) Look to secondary progressions and solar returns for support of the prediction.

Joseph Kent
June 6, 1817
11:30 PM LAT
53 N 22
2 W 57
8 Aquarius 27 Rises




Worsdale used Local Apparent Time (LAT). Most programs will default to Local Mean Time (LMT). Solar Fire and Janus will calculate to LAT. In SF In the dialogue box, simply type in LAT. LAT can be selected in Janus. If the option isn’t offered use LMT and just adjust the chart to the ASC above. Use Placidus cusps.

Both the Sun and Moon are below the horizon. Worsdale selects the Moon as hyleg as it is in the first house, albeit in a different sign than the ascendant. Clearly he is not a whole sign advocate. Note, too the Moon is between the two malefics. Apparently it didn’t bother him that Mars was in a different sign than the Moon and Saturn. But given his methods this makes sense. Rather than be concerned about meeting a particular definition of besiegement, he is aware that at some point in the life both malefics will contact the hyleg by direction. This is a red flag. And so is the fact that the Sun and Moon/hyleg are in a tight square. Also the Sun is near the IC in the 4th house (“endings”-although he doesn’t specifically use this word) and near “violent stars.” The only one I can find is Bellatrix (Swiftly destroying).

Mercury becomes an accidental malefic by virtue of the mundane square from the hyleg (who is besieged). The converse square from the Moon to the Sun is applying which makes it dangerous. The Sun squares the ASC in mundo, and he tells us the part of fortune opposes the Sun-Mercury conjunction which is also in a mundane square to the Moon.

A word on this last is in order. Worsdale calculated the POF in mundo, not in zodiac, the way all of our computer programs do and the way all authorities tell us to calculate it save one. Placidus said he could not get the POF in any nativity to mean anything, so he began to calculate it in mundo. That gives us a POF that is often nowhere near the usual one as in this case. Worsdale claims he learned to do this from Ptolemy, but that can’t be true. Ptolemy never calculated it this way. However Placidus was a Roman Catholic monk and Worsdale had no use for Catholics. Although Worsdale owes a great debt to Placidus, poor Placidus never gets a single mention in Worsdale’s book. Just bear with us when it comes to the POF.

Worsdale concludes his delineation:

“ … both luminaries, the ascendant and the part of fortune are all afflicted in this geniture, which forebodes a sudden, and violent death, by suffocation or drowning, which happened … .”

He does note in several places in each geniture that the benefics can prevent death by aspects or intervening directions etc. This appears to be the case here, but it will not be enough (see below). Now we move to the relevant primary directions. The child died at age seven years, one month, and six days

Beginning at approximately 6½ years of age the planets start ganging up on Kent.

Moon to the body of Saturn in Zodiac Converse 6 years 5 months
Moon to the Quintile (72°) of the Sun in Zodiac 6 years 9 months
Moon to the Sextile of Mars in Mundo 6 years 10 months
Moon to the Parallel of Mars in Zodiac* 6 years 10 months

*Parallels in zodiac are what we call antiscion, but he may not mean that. The Moon in the nativity is about a degree away from the contra antiscion of Mars. He lists an arc of direction of 6 degrees 59 minutes. It isn’t that much in the nativity. I’m not sure what he is referring to here.

All of the above are directions of the hyleg to malefics and the Sun as accidental malefic. Clearly a dangerous period for the native.

Sun to the Quintile (72°) of Mars in zodiac 7years 0 months

The importance of the luminaries. Plus the Sun is in mundane aspect to the ASC in the nativity.

Moon to the trine of Jupiter in Zodiac 7 years 2 months

This is just past the time of death by no more than three weeks. Worsdale does have this to say:

“ … and though the giver of life applied to the sextile of Venus and trine of Jupiter, yet those applications could not produce any important assistance because both the benefics were afflicted in the Nativity; for Jupiter is retrograde, near the heart of the Scorpion (Antares-tc), in square of Saturn and in mundane parallel to the Sun and applying to his opposition. Venus is also retrograde, near the Pleiades, and in exact parallel with Mercury in mundo where she becomes posited in the terms of both the enemies.”

How she could become posited in the terms of anything in a mundo parallel is a bit of a mystery to me. The terms are a zodiacal measurement. However in addition to being retrograde, Venus is smack on Algol. Whatever the reasons, the applications by the benefics are of no help.


From here he goes to secondary progressions. That’s for the next post.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: John Worsdale's Prediction Methods Reply with quote

Hello Tom,

thank you for this very fine beginning of an surely instructive thread! Thumbs up Very Happy

Tom wrote:

[...]Venus is also retrograde, near the Pleiades, and in exact parallel with Mercury in mundo where she becomes posited in the terms of both the enemies.”

How she could become posited in the terms of anything in a mundo parallel is a bit of a mystery to me. The terms are a zodiacal measurement. However in addition to being retrograde, Venus is smack on Algol. Whatever the reasons, the applications by the benefics are of no help.

Could it be that parallels in mundo are identical with declinations? If so, this parallel would hit the ecliptic in two points (one to the right and one to the left) and indeed in two different signs and in two different terms.

Johannes


Last edited by johannes susato on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cannot give any quotation, but to the best of my remembrance there is the traditional (?) rule, that planets in the same declination are treated as if they were in conjunction. And if the distances of the parallels from the equator are equal, the one north of it, the other south, then planets on these declinations or parallels in mundo are treated as if they were in opposition.

Johannes
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: John Worsdale's Prediction Methods Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Just a few remarks in passing:

Worsdale's first book (2nd ed. Newark 1798): the title is Genethliacal Astrology.

The mundane Part of Fortune: this will generally differ from the zodiacal one, though they will often be in the same or adjacent houses. The reason for the great discrepancy between your chart for Joseph Kent and Worsdale's is that you have used the night formula. Worsdale followed Ptolemy in always using the day formula (though as you say, Ptolemy didn't come up with the mundane calculation; that was Placidus, following Negusanti).

Zodiacal parallels: also known as parallels of declination, they are 'antiscia with latitude'. Antiscia are pairs of points in the ecliptic that have the same declination (and therefore the same semi-arcs) as each other; parallels of declination are pairs of points in the ecliptic that have the same declination as the body of a given planet. In other words, a planet's traditional antiscium/antiskion will be close to, but generally not identical with, one of its zodiacal parallels.

Worsdale's terms: he is adamant that his mundane method of calculating the terms is the only correct one, and that the traditional one is ridiculous and a misunderstanding. Unfortunately, as far as I have been able to find out, he never explains his method...
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lihin



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:08 am    Post subject: Chart Reply with quote

Good morning,

The plot thickens. Mr John Worsdale perhaps safeguarded the calculations of confines in mundo as a trade secret.

Here is Master Joseph Kent's chart generated by Astro PC, Auréas, Paris, using Worsdale's geographic data and LAT for Liverpool, England, Placido houses, all points displayed like our author:



One may observe the coincidence of MC and Asc but differences of several minutes of ecliptical arc for the beginnings of the intermediate houses. Astro PC properly displays the Part of Fortune (day formula only) in mundo as selected in the user options. Janus cannot yet display such a PoF in charts but allows one to select it for primary directions calculations as follows:



Later i hope to post the mundane primary direction lists from both programmes with Mr Worsdale's choices of aspects and points, of course using LAT in Janus.

Best regards,

lihin
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not possible, by definition, to give a zodiacal position for a mundane point with any accuracy. The best that can be done is an estimate. When Worsdale says the POF is opposite Sun-Mercury, he is referring to the mundane position of Sun-Mercury. So roughly, the mundane POF is in mid Sagittarius, just to give an idea. In the charts in the text, the POF is noted, but no zodiacal position is given.

The purpose of this thread is not to check Worsdale's calculations against those of a computer, much less to compare one program to another. The purpose is to a) learn what he is doing, and b) apply that to other charts for the purposes of prediction. We know his calculations are not going to perfectly match a computer's. It doesn't matter if he does or not, as long as they are close. There is no astrological prediction method that produces hits on the day of an event each and every time. The question is, do the cosmos gang up on us as an indication of things to come?
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Wolfgang



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fom page 85 from "Celestial Philosphy" an example of Mundan - direction, end of page" Sun to the Body of Mercury in Mundo, by Direct Direction Arc = 8° 22 Year month is 8 1

here a picture from Placidus Program




Wolfgang


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johannes susato



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
It is not possible, by definition, to give a zodiacal position for a mundane point with any accuracy. The best that can be done is an estimate. When Worsdale says the POF is opposite Sun-Mercury, he is referring to the mundane position of Sun-Mercury. So roughly, the mundane POF is in mid Sagittarius, just to give an idea. In the charts in the text, the POF is noted, but no zodiacal position is given.

You are completely right, the POF is in the middle of Sagittarius - but not in your chart you give above, Tom, POF there being in Taurus.

Johannes


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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, because the chart I gave calculated it the usual way. I may have my program set to calculate the day formula only. I fool around with different formulae and then forget where I left it. I'll look into that.

The chart I gave also says "Lincoln." That's an error too. It should have said "Liverpool." I changed the coordinates to match Worsdale's and did not change the name of the town - my bad.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: John Worsdale's Prediction Methods Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

Moon to the Parallel of Mars in Zodiac* 6 years 10 months

*Parallels in zodiac are what we call antiscion, but he may not mean that. The Moon in the nativity is about a degree away from the contra antiscion of Mars. He lists an arc of direction of 6 degrees 59 minutes. It isn’t that much in the nativity. I’m not sure what he is referring to here.
[/color]


Very easy, you should search the point with the same or opposite declination and then direct to that point.

In the given example, I redid it with Morinus (but I double-checked with Phasis, they give the same result.



I believe the difference is due to the latitude, I used underthepole with significator latitude.

In the hit-date Mars is "like" arrived to 23.6 Aries. In practice it is the Mooon which moved carried by the primum mobile, against the signs



If we check the latitude for 23.6 Aries (no latitude, they are zodiacal) we find it is 8.59.

Moon and Mars are in contraparallel because the natal Moon declination was -8.59. So same absolute value, different signs.

Quote:
When Worsdale says the POF is opposite Sun-Mercury, he is referring to the mundane position of Sun-Mercury. So roughly, the mundane POF is in mid Sagittarius, just to give an idea. In the charts in the text, the POF is noted, but no zodiacal position is given.


when you work with mundane positions zodiacal longitude has no importance. They would be opposite because they are distant 6 hours.

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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Worsdale used Placidus under the pole of the significator directions and the Placidus key and that's what I'm using for now.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Martin

Quote:
also known as parallels of declination


I thought parallels of declination were measured in degrees above and below the equator, and therefore would not have a zodiacal longitude. But antiscia is measured on the ecliptic. I know there is a connection between them, but I've never been strong in this area. I probably should dig into it.
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lihin



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: A mystery? Reply with quote

Good afternoon,

To me it is a mystery how we can hope to, as Mr Tom said:

Quote:
a) learn what he is doing, and b) apply that to other charts for the purposes of prediction. We know his calculations are not going to perfectly match a computer's. It doesn't matter if he does or not, as long as they are close. There is no astrological prediction method that produces hits on the day of an event each and every time.


if we don't know what 'close' means. The various data from different computer programmes seem also to differ by perhaps more than 'close' from Mr John Worsdale's. Primary directions are extremely time sensitive. Small changes in ephemerides, algorithms, data of place and time, can easily reflect in differences of event times of months.

My approach to the problem has hitherto been somewhat different and perhaps suboptimal. Expecting data differences from the outset, i restricted the primary directions considered to those Mr Worsdale found effective and that he analysed in the text, eliminating the others from the list. Using as much original data (place, time) from our author as possible, i then rectified the birth time (using Janus but some other programme might also do) to obtain primary directions data most closely resembling Mr Worsdale's.

Concerning the primary directions data differences amongst various software programmes, it seems to me far too much expected from mere students like yours truly to develop much confidence in the astrological tool of primary directions if experts and software engineers obviously significantly diverge on their implementations. This perhaps potentially inharmonious topic should therefore be directly addressed rather than deliberately ignored and / or avoided. What might be gained by sticking our heads into the sand?

Best regards,

lihin

PS In my limited knowledge, conversion of equatorial positions into ecliptical ones is not only possible but frequent. Even the Sun occasionally has ex. gr. 1 second of ecliptical latitude as He orbits round a barycentre. Smile
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: A mystery? Reply with quote

lihin wrote:

if we don't know what 'close' means. The various data from different computer programmes seem also to differ by perhaps more than 'close' from Mr John Worsdale's.


The problem is: different software are really traditional? I only checked Morinus by redoing by hand calculation , and it is traditional.

Morinus fits with Placidus and Phasis- so at the moment they are the only ones I trust (they all give the same results), about others I don't know

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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite the fact that this is the sort of discussion I want to avoid I'm going to reply and then the subject will be dropped.

Quote:
if we don't know what 'close' means.


"Close" is a common English word it means "near" or "approximately." Once we define it to the nth degree it is no longer close, but precise. Far too many astrologers expect astrological methods to be more precise than any astrologer has ever been able to accomplish. We're not engineers. We're astrologers.

Primary directions are time sensitive, but our purpose is to see how they are used, not to overstate the obvious. In the example above several directions involving the hyleg occurred within several months of each other and then shortly after the last one, the native died. Hyleg is the giver of life. Nasty directions took it away.

Furthermore he didn't stop with the directions but looked to progressions and (we didn't get there yet) a solar return in order to pin point the event in question. That's the method. The method does not stand or fall based on a single technique's ability or failure to pinpoint the date (why not the hour?). Several months is close enough to give a warning that something is going to happen. That's what Worsdale did.
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