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Quickie mystery chart from Trad forum
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Quickie mystery chart from Trad forum Reply with quote

This is about the quickie mystery chart posted (tropically) by Tom in Traditional forum on Feb 25.

I worked out the date from a transit search with Solar Fire: date must be 19 August 1935 (unless the guy was born many many centuries ago, maybe) so ayanamsa (Krishnamurti minus 25') must be 22°28' on the date, so ascendant should be 22°33' Cancer, MC 16°26' Aries. (Sun 3Leo, Moon 11Ar, Ma 19Li, Me 12Leo, Ju 23Li, Ve 0Vi, Sa 15Aq, NN 29Sg.). Whole sign houses.

If this person was very famous, I'd say the tropical chart works better (Sun with Ascendant in Leo), but since Tom says it's not fame we're after it seems we may not have heard of him, maybe this chart is OK.

Moon R1 in 10 with MC, and NN in 6 aspecting 10 (full trine aspect) – the man's career(s) and daily work probably most important area in his life; it may be changeable (Moon) and obsessive, driven (NN). No full Indian aspects to ascendant, but Saturn, Mars and Jupiter all aspect 10. Mars (R10, Aries) aspect to 10 and its placement in 4 close to IC is particularly powerful. In Indian, it's the planet not the type of aspect that determines quality of aspect, so I'll try that and say Mars doesn't oppose but greatly helps and maybe determines his career, as for Cancer ascendant, Mars is a great benefic, being ruler of both a trine and an angle from the ascendant. Here placed angular, in 4, so counts as a "yogakaraka" (from the classic text "by" Parashara: "If a Kona lord also happens to be Kendra lord and placed in a Kendra or Kona, becomes a special yogakaraka (bestower of yoga). A yogakaraka needs to be placed in a Kendra or Kona to become specifically a strong yoga karaka, bestowing affluence.")

The multiple aspects to H10 (and to R1 in 10) could explain the change of career Tom mentions (perhaps multiple changes?). There could be a strong Mars quality to his work/career, also Saturn, Jupiter and NN (which partake of nature of Jupiter as it is alone in Sagittarius).
Moon R1 in 10: changeable, public.
R1 in 10: career is very important to him, hardworking and goal-orientated. H10 is an "upachaya" house (improves with time), so he could go from strength to strength and have a long career.
Mars R10 aspect to MC in 10: vocation related to military, sport, engineering and metalwork, surgery.
Saturn (strong in Aquarius) aspect of 3 (dexter sextile: full Indian aspect) to 10 and MC: engineering, hard worker (or menial, servants – but this seems unlikely here…), lots of staying power, sees his projects through.
Jupiter aspect to 10: higher knowledge (University research?), teaching or the judiciary.
(The double aspect of Jupiter and Saturn, according to K.N. Rao, strengthens a house by the combination of the expansive nature of Jupiter and the concentrating nature of Saturn. It's supposed to be about bringing things to manifestation and realisation – it's considered a condition for childbirth).
NN could add more of a "how" (lots of drive) than a "what", but is supposed to indicate foreign travel, engineering and technical things. It can indicate where the deep drives are in the chart, here in 6 (hard work, perhaps in medicine). It is alone in Sagittarius, so it could help to emphasise Jupiter's aspect.
Although it's not a full Indian aspect, the close trine of Mercury to R1 Moon in 10 and also to MC could suggest medicine, trade or computers.
Venus is weak in the very first few minutes of Virgo with the ayanamsa I've used, so if I'm right, perhaps not much interest in fashion, entertainment, music etc. Free time activities probably more martial or sporty (if any time left).

The malefics Saturn are placed in "bad" houses in this chart (Saturn in 8, SN in 12 and NN in 6) (Mars in 4 is strong but is highly benefic for Cancer Asc.). This is probably the best place for the malefics, as they can do less damage, and the 6-12 nodal axis could add practical drive and competitive spirit, and avoidance of isolation, loss, withdrawal from world. Got some of this from an article I like on nodal placements: http://www.astrocounsel.us/articles/?p=241

So I'd say these different careers Tom mentions may be in medicine (Mars R10 aspecting 10/MC; close trine of Mercury to MC; aspect of NN from 6) particularly surgery because of very strong benefic Mars), and engineering (Saturn, Mars), with probably research work and/or teaching associated (Jupiter), with much drive, personal investment and staying power in career(s) (R1 Moon in 10, NN aspect from 6, powerful and benefic Mars + Saturn aspects 10 to and R1 ). The combined Saturn/Jupiter aspect on 10 should help realise career/vocational objectives. Moon R1 in 10 could indicate changes of career, public duties and public recognition, perhaps also a caring profession for some of his life.

Graham


Last edited by Graham F on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Quickie mystery chart from Trad forum Reply with quote

Graham F wrote:
If this person was very famous, I'd say the tropical chart works better (Sun with Ascendant in Leo), but since Tom says it's not fame we're after it seems we may not have heard of him, maybe this chart is OK.

I won't be participating, as I believe I know who the native is; but I would just like to say that I for one would read even the sidereal chart as having the Sun in Leo in the 1st house/ascendant (albeit not in the rising sign). Moreover, in the sidereal chart the triplicity rulers of the sect light are all angular by quadrant division, while in the tropical chart, one is cadent and one succedent.
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Graham F



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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Martin
I did say that the Sun was sidereally in Leo, but as you suggest, I should have made it clear that it's not the sidereal adjustment that excludes the Sun from the first house, but the use of sidereal in association with whole sign houses. I realise that quadrant houses can be used in sidereal, and that in your book on primaries you use quadrants (Alcabitius). I was a bit tempted to try and include the Sun with H1, but since I don't want to keep changing systems to fit the chart, and I usually find WSH work better and are a bit less sensitive to slight birth time errors, and particularly here as I had to work out the ascendant and MC by deduction of ayanamsa from Tom's tropical post, I stayed with WS. I should have said that although technically in H2, the Sun is angular (I do think that is important - using angular placements as measurements of strength, so a planet near MC also would be strong, even if in WS 9 or 11). So maybe he's famous too!
I don't know enough about triplicity rulers, terms etc, which of the variants to use etc, so I'm avoiding them for now - but looking at the quadrant houses in Tom's chart, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, the Dorothean ones (I think) for Moon's dispositors are indeed in 4, 1 and 7, though Saturn is a long way from the cusp. I'd have thought that Moon could be considered powerful by angularity (5° from MC) even though in 9 by quadrant system (in 10 by WS).
Graham
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello guys,

I just displayed the chart sidereally in the traditional forum but I thought you might like it here too. Although I see no need for astrological apartheid on mystery charts.

Frankly, Graham seems to have worked the chart data out precisely anyway.

Its in Lahiri ayanamsa as Graham suggested this was the sidereal 'default'.
I used the Alcabitius house system in the first chart as this was the most popular system during most of the medieval era. In the second chart as I used whole sign as the house system representative of early hellenistic and much of Jyotish astrology.





Mark
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a bit confused about this forum itself.
This is becoming a mish-mash of sidereal western and indian jyotish astrology in a round wheel minus the dashas.

or is this how the sidereal western astrology is described as well.
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Graham F



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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
I am a bit confused about this forum itself.
This is becoming a mish-mash of sidereal western and indian jyotish astrology in a round wheel minus the dashas.
or is this how the sidereal western astrology is described as well.


Well, I guess that's my fault, but this particular forum is just called "sidereal", it doesn't say Indian, Western, traditional or anything. There's another forum for pure Indian.
For the round wheel, let me reassure you: I sketch out the chart straightaway in a South Indian square for easier reading. But I find the round Western chart also useful to show where things are in the sky, close aspects etc.
I'm still learning with dasha, or rather I was, I'm rather disappointed with how they're used by various authors, it alls seems very haphazard. The best I've found is Krushna. Anyway, dasha (without an s, I think) are about timing events, and so far I haven't participated in any event-timing questions on this thread. And in that respect, I'm more interested in primaries and returns at the moment. Call it a mish-mash if you like, but I think Indian astrology has gots lots to teach Western sidereal (and tropical, for that matter) about its own lost techniques - and perhaps vice versa. One person's mish-mash is another's synthesis... (my own efforts are maybe still a bit of a mish-mash, but I have had some modest success in the "guess the profession" charts so far).
One of the authors who got me interested in mish-mash/synthesis of Indian/Western was Richard Houck, and although there are things in his books that I now find strange or a bit muddled (like his haphazard and unconvincing use of dasha), his approach is still a model for me.
Graham


Last edited by Graham F on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's always going to be some overlap within the forums actually. Clearly we don't need to follow Indian style methods to use a sidereal zodiac so this forum could equally be used by hellenistic style astrologers who contend that as measurements were made sidereally they're content to use the sidereal zodiac - though obviously this would overlap with perhaps the traditional forum on discussion of points which don't pertain necessarily to one zodiac or another but for which examples may require the user to draw up a chart in one or the other.

Similarly the sidereal forum clearly has an overlap with the indian astrology forum, though I must say I did scratch my head when Deb made one for "Indian and Asian" and then "Chinese". But at least we have more representation for astrologers who use sidereal and jyotish methods - they have a choice of two forums they can use depending on whether their focus is on the zodiac or on jyotish specific methods I guess.


Apologies for posting there here, but I like to sometimes try to follow what sidereal/jyotish astrologers do whenever I can because I'm quite ignorant on jyotish methods and would at least like to get to grips with some basic terminology that is employed so I can at least follow what's being said. Also apologies for posting in this thread in specific because I do not intend to read the mystery charts anymore as I didn't have a great experience of it the last time around.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham F wrote:
pankajdubey wrote:
I am a bit confused about this forum itself.
This is becoming a mish-mash of sidereal western and indian jyotish astrology in a round wheel minus the dashas.
or is this how the sidereal western astrology is described as well.


Well, I guess that's my fault, but this particular forum is just called "sidereal", it doesn't say Indian, Western, traditional or anything. There's another forum for pure Indian.
For the round wheel, let me reassure you: I sketch out the chart straightaway in a South Indian square for easier reading. But I find the round Western chart also useful to show where things are in the sky, close aspects etc.
I'm still learning with dasha, or rather I was, I'm rather disappointed with how they're used by various authors, it alls seems very haphazard. The best I've found is Krushna. Anyway, dasha (without an s, I think) are about timing events, and so far I haven't participated in any event-timing questions on this thread. And in that respect, I'm more interested in primaries and returns at the moment. Call it a mish-mash if you like, but I think Indian astrology has gots lots to teach Western sidereal (and tropical, for that matter) about its own lost techniques - and perhaps vice versa. One person's mish-mash is another's synthesis... (my own efforts are maybe still a bit of a mish-mash, but I have had some modest success in the "guess the profession" charts so far).
One of the authors who got me interested in mish-mash/synthesis of Indina/Western was Richard Houck, and although there are things in his books that I now find strange or a bit muddles (like his haphazard and unconvincing use of dasha), his approach is still a model for me.
Graham


Thanks Graham,

My understanding of western sidereal astrology was that you convert it to sidereal then use everything eg: exaltations,detriment and aspects the same was as tropicalists.

As you are aware,aspects are not the same in Indian and sidereal astrology.
Mars has a 4,7,8 aspect and Saturn has a 3,7 10 aspect(in jyotish).So the influences of sextile and square can be mixed up !!

If Dasas bother you-start with the Yogini dasa first, it is a bit like Firdaria periods.Vimshottari has to be dealt with the rules mentioned in a book called- laghu Parashari and it is a bit complicated.
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Graham F



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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks pankajdubey
I've never looked at Yogini dasha, I hope to get round to it. I was aware of the Laghu Parashari, but I found the most effective system (but complex, with lots of sub-rules) with vimsottari is Krushna's, based on rulership or occupation of upachaya or "improving" houses (3, 6, 10 and 11 from any house) and on ashtakavarga (I'm more convinced by the upachaya principle than by the AV...). His system is rather unsatisfactory as to how to interpret the periods of the nodes. And it needs lots of time! Maybe one day it can be the subject of a thread in the Indian forum.

I like to able discuss techniques and ideas in an eclectic space, as the forums specfic to, for example, Krushna or around the work of Narasimha Rao (Vedic Astrology/Jagannatha), while very good, require a certain amount of prior obedience to the particular school in question- you're not really allowed to mish-mash, and sometimes asking "why" seems to be discouraged.
I was aware of the full aspects as used in Jyotish, and have been referring to them and using them in my posts. I have also sometimes mentioned very close aspects to e.g. ASC or MC or a key significator planet, but I don't think this is invalid as even in Jyotish, these are still aspects, just not full 100% strong ones, and I think that what they lack in "fullness" can sometimes be made up for by closeness of orb.

Just as reminder or for the benefit of interested parties, the Indian aspects are always counted in zodiacal order (i.e. dexter, in Western terms, though I believe there is some disagreement when retrogrades are involved) by whole sign, and (apart from the conjunction) are always 100° for the aspect of 7 (opposition), always 0° for aspects of 2 (30°), 6 (150) 11 (300) and 12 (330). Then Mars also has special full aspects of 4 (90°) and 8 (210); Jupiter has also the trines (5 and 9), and Saturn has also 3 (60) and 10 (270). For the nodes it depends on the authorities, I was taught that both Rahu and Ketu can aspect by trine only, which makes sense, as that makes 6 different contacts in all (including the conjunctions) and sidesteps the problem of retrograde movement (I think Krushna uses these trines).

Of course there are other principles of combination which can connect planets not aspecting, and then there are the Jaimini techiniques which use a completely different system of aspects, considered as being from sign to sign (so anything in a given house/sign would aspect anything in a certain other one). There are so many techniques, one hardly knows where to start; at the moment I suppose I'm applying what I learned rather unquestionly from Indian astro (what I can remember of it), and seeing how I can try to sift out what is clearest and most coherent/effective by combining/comparing it with what I'm now learning about traditional Western (which I'm pretty convinced was and should be primarily sidereal - but's that's my problem, not the forum's...).

Graham
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Krishnamurti paddhati (is different) and I found it too complicated - too many subdivisions for me.

Even in Vimshottari , I generally do not go beyond antardasha.If the main and sub are not giving you the answer there is no point looking at the sub-sub period.

I use Jagannath hora - the software but I do not find the either the systems approach or that of the author of the Jagannath Hora very practical. I think that it is an attempt to quantify or become all encompassing to be acceptable to the foreign students or audience.
But that is entirely my opinion.

If some one could assure me that essential dignities go with sidereal western, then I would just use the western concepts of the dignities, aspects and lots etc to sidereal astrology.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
If some one could assure me that essential dignities go with sidereal western, then I would just use the western concepts of the dignities, aspects and lots etc to sidereal astrology.

Well, it depends on what you mean. If 'Western Sidereal' is taken to mean the modern school of astrology formulated by Fagan et al., I couldn't say whether all the traditional essential dignities are preserved there. But the dignities as such antedate the historical use of the tropical zodiac as commonly understood (i.e., the zodiac equating 0 Aries with the vernal equinox), and the Persians certainly seem to have used them with a sidereal zodiac, as did (and do) Indian Tajika astrologers, to whom these dignities are known as the pañca-varga or 'group of five'.

Of course, the Indians and Persians were hardly 'western' in any meaningful sense of the term; but then again, arguably, nor were the Hellenistic Egyptians or the medieval Arabic authors on whom almost all traditional astrology outside of India rests.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin, I've always been unclear, I know you use the sidereal zodiac, but are you more or less 'western' in approach (if we concede the misnomer to include arabic, hellenistic etc.) or principally jyotish in approach? Or a fusion of your own or some mix?

This isn't important, just because I'm curious. I know you're very familiar with the main jyotish texts and well versed in sanskrit so I think perhaps a fusion or more jyotish?

Apologies again, I'll try not to reply here as I don't want to derail the thread any more.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the crux lies with the detriment concept and special aspects.
In the chart above, is the 10th lord Mars in detriment and does Saturn aspect Mars.


PD
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I began studying astrology for real almost 25 years ago, it was the classical Indian branch (jyotisha); but nowadays my approach is more Perso-Arabic in nature (with Indian and Greek ideas included, as they were in Baghdad 1200 years ago). Because I do basically Perso-Arabic astrology in a sidereal zodiac, I sometimes loosely identify my style of astrology as Tajika (Perso-Indian).
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
When I began studying astrology for real almost 25 years ago, it was the classical Indian branch (jyotisha); but nowadays my approach is more Perso-Arabic in nature (with Indian and Greek ideas included, as they were in Baghdad 1200 years ago). Because I do basically Perso-Arabic astrology in a sidereal zodiac, I sometimes loosely identify my style of astrology as Tajika (Perso-Indian).


That avoids the detriment conundrum and could swap varshaphala for vimshottari but how do you treat the 7th house aspect.

PD
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