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Sometimes astrology works too well.

 
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Debra



Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:01 pm    Post subject: Sometimes astrology works too well. Reply with quote

I have read in numerous sources that a natal chart will show potential, but that the free will of the individual is always a factor.

I also have read that the charts progress in several ways and transits are made to the natal chart and lessons are to be learned.

But, I think that sometimes if we just listen to our natal charts we can save ourselves a lot of time. For instance, when I first started looking at astrology at the age of 12 I always found that I would excel in the business world, i.e, banking, wall street, etc. Being a child of the 70's I fought this urge and instead went to the mountains to live off the land. (I exaggerate, but you get the idea). It was years after college that I settled into my carreer on wall street.

My oldest child has the sun, mars, and venus in the 6th house of his natal chart. At the age of 14 he began volunteering at the local hospital. Finally, after floundering in college, at the age of 27 he decides to go to medical school.

I think my question here is: Is it best to just trust the natal chart? Are the progressions and lessons to be learned really valid? Couldn't we just save time by believing a bit more in the natal chart in the first place?

If the natal chart is the real key, what is the purpose of forcasting using progressions and the like???

Don't misunderstand, I certainly do progress charts, looking for insight and answers. But lately I am finding that the same things were in the original natal chart.

I am not sure if I am correct in this new assumption, or if I am missing something.
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Debra,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've put forward here.

Astrology, as with all other things in life, rests on one's ability to listen as much if not moreso than anything else.

The natal chart is a representation of our energy dynamics, potentials etc. And if we're not listening to ourselves, actually pausing every so often to hear what's going on, who are we listening to? And if we don't listen to ourselves, why should anyone else listen to us?

There's truth in "empty vessels make the most noise" just as there's truth in "still waters run deep".

Too much noise easily diverts attention from being able to listen. It is important to pause and take a breath.

Warmly,
TS.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it best to just trust the natal chart? Are the progressions and lessons to be learned really valid? Couldn't we just save time by believing a bit more in the natal chart in the first place?

The problem with believing in the natal chart and trusting it is that our interpretation skills will dictate what we think and believe concerning the chart. Insufficient or bad interpretation skills can take us down the wrong road indeed! We could end up creating a new person, and not seeing the person whose chart we are looking at. There must be a deeper foundation for the trust and belief. The process of working with the chart, and accepting and rejecting interpretations of it, can be a contemplative process which takes us to that deeper place.

Another possible trap is considering the chart as a comprehensible whole, and therefore extending that thought to ourselves as comprehensible wholes. The chart consists of many interacting parts. So do we. I like the idea of a person as a boarding house with its various characters. The action lies in the separate characters and their interactions, not in the boarding house itself.

Quote:
If the natal chart is the real key, what is the purpose of forcasting using progressions and the like???

Possibly as indicators of appropriate and/or necessary times to better understand the boarding house characters who are involved in the progression or transit.
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it best to just trust the natal chart? Are the progressions and lessons to be learned really valid? Couldn't we just save time by believing a bit more in the natal chart in the first place?


With the natal chart being a reflection of our potentials and so forth, I think there’s a direct correlation between the trust one has in what they see in their chart, and the trust they have in themselves - their own life.

We could save a lot of time by believing a bit more in the natal chart (or in other words, believing in ourselves, having more faith in oneself and one’s own potentials), however we don’t always see ourselves and our own potentials clearly.
How we view ourselves and our potentials is influenced (especially in the early years of growing up) by what others tell us, teach us to believe about various things etc.

Considering our own natal chart is a way of putting ourselves before us (or in front of us ... out in the open on a sheet of paper or computer screen) and gives us a different perspective.
It's a way of seeking our own objective opinion on ourselves - well, as much as one can be objective.
But it does introduce an element of objectivity and in a way transforms what we feel or think intuitively into something that can be seen, getting it out into the open in such a way where one’s able to make a little more sense of what’s going on etc. We know how we experience the energies that course within us - we feel them - a natal chart gives us a diagram. The combination of personal experience with objective knowledge (the diagram etc) helps towards developing understanding.

Doing so also helps clarify how much of other people’s dialogue one’s taken on board and is allowing to direct their life - which has the potential to lead one off track, away from what one intuitively knows or feels to be right and true, as much as it has the potential to keep one on track.

The better someone knows themself, the more confidence they have in themself and the greater their ability to fulfil their potentials. Self-doubt has less of a chance to creep in and undermine fulfilment of potentials. Examining a natal chart offers us a new perspective on getting to know oneself, and confidence in self is gained through experience. As we activate our own lives, we activate the natal chart.

And while a natal chart offers an objective look at an individual, including ourselves, it's not separate from the individual. In a sense it’s the story of one’s life and people are always fascinated by stories, especially in how the story might end.

Quote:
If the natal chart is the real key, what is the purpose of forcasting using progressions and the like???


The insight gained through progressions etc provides a certain level of comfort for people by illuminating choices they have as their development through life unfolds. The information gained helps them to make informed choices in their life.

It gives perspective on “today” by looking ahead towards how it unfolds, over time, “tomorrow”. What someone does today, built upon by the choices they make between these two points in time, influences the outcome tomorrow. And the ability to make better choices leads to better outcomes. Besides, what astrologer doesn't enjoy a quick jaunt in the time machine?

The potentials one’s born with are never lost but are something that are worked towards, gradually unfolding over time. They may appear to lie dormant , but energy builds towards their ripening for eventual expression.
For example, the natal chart could be said to show a seed and it’s potentials, progressions etc help show how that seed develops into a tree.

Quote:
“But lately I am finding that the same things were in the original natal chart.”


Yes? I'm a little confused as to why this is confusing. Still the same natal chart, yes?, just a different point in time.

Perhaps, this is more a situation of life coming full circle where the intial understanding as to the importance and truth of these potentials is being expanded, taking on a whole new depth of meaning as to how true they really are which subsequently opens up a new dimension to be explored yet again?

I think this is the sharper focus and perspective one acquires over time, the experience of which makes all the difference.
It’s one thing to identify potentials such as when one first learns to interpret a natal chart, but it takes the actual experience of that chart coming to life - being brought to life - through time for those initial potentials indicated to be realised and really mean something to us.

In a way, it could be seen as a fresh re-affirmation of one’s faith in one’s self.

And we believe in, trust in, have faith in, those things that mean something to us ... the deeper the meaning it holds, the greater the belief/trust. It's always a good thing to gain more trust in oneself, regardless of where in time we might have progressed to.
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Debra



Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that our interpretation skills, as Kirk mentioned, may be lacking when looking at a natal chart. But that holds true for all interpretations, even progressions or transits. I don't think I will ever know everything. ('Sad') But I'm not sure if I am filled with a lot of characters or just different aspects of the same person. Hmmm.

What I seemed to have discovered in my old age (and I just had a birthday so I am feeling it crying ) is that the forecasting can be done with the natal chart. Not that I can do that, but, I've seen where, for instance someone can be so stubborn (Mars? Saturn?) that they refuse to look at some other aspect such as an indication of what area of career might best suit them. All this is shown in the natal chart. Perhaps what the forecast shows us is when that awakening transit arrives that hinders the stubborness long enough to declare the right major. But even that can be predicted in the natal chart, perhaps without the addition of timing, such as, "some day you will see the light." Or, "if you continue to ignore the wisdom of your mother, you will never attain your potential." (this last point is a fantasy)

I can and often do, as others I have known, get bogged down when I see a negative aspect approaching. Even when I know that it can mean so many things. How bad is bad? At 35 I could deal with the death of my mother, after her long illness, but I never could have quite as well at 16 when she first got ill.

When the negative transit approaches, isn't it our natal chart that shows us how best to attain the strength to deal with it? If we look? If we interpret, albeit as best we can? Maybe all the forecast charts point out are things like when an event will happen. But isn't it more important to develop the abilities and qualities of the natal chart within us so that when the bad things, and the good things, happen, we are ready enough to understand and accept?

I so agree with Tumbling Sphinx when I read:

I think this is the sharper focus and perspective one acquires over time, the experience of which makes all the difference.
It’s one thing to identify potentials such as when one first learns to interpret a natal chart, but it takes the actual experience of that chart coming to life - being brought to life - through time for those initial potentials indicated to be realised and really mean something to us.


Consequently, I think, ( more and more as those birthdays mount up), that the natal chart holds the key, and the forecasting charts give us a time frame. But knowing when something is going to happen is not as good as being ready for it. We sometimes need to focus on the traits we need to develop and keep the ones that can hold us back in tow. These are all found in the natal chart. And even those "negative traits", like stubborness, are so needed when we're up against an injustice, such as that awful car dealer who tried to get me to pay too much. Boy, did I stick to my guns. The deal of a lifetime!

And when I thought years ago that I had it all figured out, and put the natal chart aside in favor of forecasting, and predicting, I was kidding myself. Becasue I look at the natal chart now and I clearly see my husband, my children, my friends, my career, my studies, my choices, my lack of choices, my relationships with my parents through time; and even my own stubborness, my sense of humor, my being too analytic and not feeling enough, except in the 5th house, and even my love of bright flower print skirts and second hand jewelry amidst the dark suits of the business world (that Uranus 'Lala Happy', and I get away with it! ), all pointing at me in such a drole way.

"Look", the chart says, "I had the answers all along."
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very beautiful, sensitive thoughts.

Quote:
"Look", the chart says, "I had the answers all along."


Welcome home! Very Happy

And many happy birthday wishes too.
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Debra



Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Tumbling Sphinx for the birthday wishes!
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foreteller



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 30

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the natal chart tells us what are our fears, what size is our ego.
those two factors (or maybe they are simply two sides of same coin?)
are the factors that create our fate.

but... one can overcome fear and go after his dreams. it's not easy, yet it's possible, for few.

a Belated Happy Birthday! Leery
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Debra



Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the belated birthday wish. Very Happy

I was reading an article about natal charts this morning, and the author gave an example of two young men, both great runners. One runner, A, always beat B, but B went on to pursue a running career, and won many medals, while A went on the become a construction worker.

With other indications being present, the author pointed out that one should look to the humors in the natal chart to show disposition. A was more inclined to chose a safe career while B was more inclined to chose the riskier path.

I thought this was very interesting.
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foreteller



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 30

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A was more inclined to chose a safe career while B was more inclined to chose the riskier path.


It will be very interesting to see the charts.
sometimes being on the riskier path shows an insecure person lacking mental stability, but sometimes it is Intelligence as revealed by an ability to give correct responses without delay as with strong mercury.
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