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Traditional Ideas in the Sidereal: Trigons and Temperament
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,
thanks for sharing where the idea of above and below horizon and objective/subjective orientation comes from..

when an idea comes from a particular astrologer or time frame do you give it some consideration, or do you discard it? i like to think of it's relevance regardless of who or when the idea came about.. i figure these ideas have a basis in observation, as opposed to imagination, although imagination is an important part of our mind that has been responsible for all sorts of wonderful discoveries.

as for the 3 considerations ala schmidt. - thanks! it would seem it is trigon lords, not trigon lord.. also interesting to me is how the ruler of the part of fortune has gone by the wayside and not being used for temperament analysis by anyone in the list on greenbaums book..well schoener mentions it, but not the ruler but the almuten instead..

i think if i was to point to one area of fascination for the traditional astrologer crowd it would be 'temperament'.. it seems to me since 'modern' astrology has been defined as too psychological for the traditional folks they need to sublimate their ongoing interest in psychology by studying temperament.. i think that is what these astrologers were doing.. they just didn't have carl jungs ideas to kick around like liz greene and etc.. greenbaum does discuss carl jung as well!
what do you think?

Therese Hamilton wrote:

-----------Begin quote-------------

the trigon lord(s) of the sect light.


--------------End Quote-------------

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
therese,
when an idea comes from a particular astrologer or time frame do you give it some consideration, or do you discard it?

I consider the idea over the source. Astrology is so vast that it seems little tidbits or larger ideas come from all sides. I place the most emphasis on observation.

Quote:
i think if i was to point to one area of fascination for the traditional astrologer crowd it would be 'temperament'.. it seems to me since 'modern' astrology has been defined as too psychological for the traditional folks they need to sublimate their ongoing interest in psychology by studying temperament.. i think that is what these astrologers were doing.. they just didn't have carl jungs ideas to kick around like liz greene and etc.. greenbaum does discuss carl jung as well!
what do you think?

I'm not sure what your question is here. I do think there is a lot of overlap between what is called personality and temperament. So considering these together or comparing them is rather complex. It's a whole new discussion that would require a lot of basic research. Although astrologers use psychology every day, very few of them are professionally trained to fully understand what the are saying. Perhaps the same can be said for temperament.

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Sanguine Charts Reply with quote

SANGUINE CHARTS

There are only two children in Greenbaum’s book who are classed as sanguine without modification from other temperaments, Stacy and Darcy. Greenbaum has used Tony Blair as a third sanguine person, so we can look at these three charts.

The Sanguine temperament (Greenbaum)
Friendly, social, shallow, unfocused, cheerful, dilettante, lucky
Hail fellow well met
Networking is an art form.

If the sanguine temperament is linked to a trigon, it would have to be the Taurus triplicity which has the traits of the tropical Gemini trigon. The sidereal Taurus triplicity lords are the Moon and Venus, and traits of these planets are a good match for this triplicity. These sidereal signs, Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn, are also signs of communication, for Virgo (Mercury's domicile as well as exaltation sign), is the second sign of this triplicity. "For in Virgo is also a share for Mercury." (Dorotheus)

To review Moon and Venus traits from Introductions to Traditional Astrology:

Characteristics of the Moon
benevolent
moderate
not concealing secrets (talkative?)
desires joy and beauty and being praised
inexperience of the mind (Dykes’ note: “gossip, chit-chat”)
cheerful to people
with Venus: courtliness, sweetness of mind
with Jupiter: kindness of companionship

Characteristics of Venus
generous, sharing
amiability toward friends
joy and happiness
love of children, love of people
trust in everyone
sweetness of speech
sweetness and laughter and friendship

Stacy
March 3, 1987
8:18 am EST (-5)
New Haven, CT
Asc:5Ari58 (Krishnamurti)
Sidereal MC: 10Cap33
Ignore the MC in the printed chart

Darcy
March 1, 1983
4:59:30 am EST (-5)
New Haven, Ct
Asc: 12Cap16 (Krishnamurti)
Sidereal MC: 7Lib19
Ignore the MC in the printed chart

Stacy
Greenbaum describes Stacy as sociable, graceful, flitting from interest to interest, and comments that “It would be nice to see more significations in air.” As “air” correlates with the sidereal Taurus triplicity and its lords, Stacy's chart has Venus at the zenith point (nonagesimal) squaring the ascendant within a degree.

The Moon is also on the ascendant in Aries. The Moon has no dignity in Aries, but is exalted in Taurus in the navamsa. Of course this is a technique borrowed from India, although the so-called "9ths" appear in early western texts. But there is no hint as to how to use the 9ths.

Stacy's chart shows us the importance of the ascendant angles, for the Venus-Moon configuration dominates the chart angles. Sun and Mercury are in melancholic Aquarius in the 11th sign. Though a diurnal chart, the Sun is obviously eclipsed by the angular Venus and Moon.

(1) Domicile lord of the ascendant
With Aries rising, Stacy's Mars is in the first house widely conjunct the Ascendant and Moon. Both Moon and the Ascendant are in the bounds of cheerful Jupiter. Mars receives the 2 degree sextile from Mercury in the bounds of Venus. The Aquarian Sun forms a wider sextile, and happens to be in the bounds of Jupiter. (It would seem that the bounds would make a useful addition to the study of temperament.)

(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune
Fortuna lies in Taurus, so the elevated sanguine Venus is the domicile lord.

(3) Trigon lords of the sect light
Here we don't have trigon support for a sanguine chart as Saturn in Scorpio is the day lord of the Sun, and Mercury in Aquarius is the night lord. It may be important that both Saturn and Mercury are well placed by house (9th and 11th). (This is taking the equal cusps as the centers of house influence.) Saturn does not aspect the ascendant or Moon, however.

Darcy
The sanguine chart that has the most discussion of traits in Greenbaum's book is that of, her own daughter, Darcy. Greenbaum states that she has admired her daughter’s social skills and ability to make friends since she was the age of three. Greenbaum describes Darcy’s life filled with activity including ballet, various sports, learning French and music.

“Too much on her plate,” Greenbaum says, “who enjoys every minute of it.” Greenbaum adds that it’s easy to see Darcy’s sanguine temperament as both the ascendant and Moon are in [tropical] Air.

(1) Trigon lords of the sect light:
In the sidereal zodiac we are not surprised then to see that the Moon in Virgo in its own triplicity trines the ascendant from the 9th house with a two degree orb. In the terms of Venus, the Moon is made stronger by Darcy being a night time birth. In the navamsa the Moon gains even more strength as it is dignified in Taurus. Venus, the secondary trigon lord is exalted in Pisces.

(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune:
Fortuna is in Gemini, so the domicile lord is Mercury in Capricorn, sign of the Taurus trigon.

(3) Domicile lord of the ascendant is Saturn in Libra. On the surface this looks a lot like a melancholic signature, but there are some important differences from Saturn in the melancholic charts. Saturn is exalted in Darcy's chart rather than being in an inimical sign of Mars (Aries or Scorpio). Darcy's Saturn does not aspect either the Sun or Moon, but it does closely aspect the ascendant. Is it important that Saturn is in the bounds of Mercury which is in Capricorn?

Another plus is that Saturn’s dispositor is an exalted Venus in Pisces in partile opposition to the 9th house Moon with only a four minute orb. So there is a similar Venus-Moon emphasis that is present in Stacy’s chart. It would seem that the Moon making such a close aspect to the ascendant “collects” the energy of exalted Venus.

Five degrees away and conjoined to Venus is Mars in Pisces in its own trigon. No doubt this is the signature for Darcy’s love of the ceaseless activities she enjoys with others, which includes the sports of swimming, softball, and horseback riding. With Mars as the primary triplicity lord, the sidereal Cancer trigon carries choleric energy.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for answering my questions therese. those were good answers! i am making a bit of a statement in the 2nd part more then i am needing to get a specific answer.

here are stacey and darcys charts.

it is interesting to see more of a focal point in the 4th quadrant of staceys chart which is described as the 'sanguine' quadrant. in the case of darcys chart i note the sun square jupiter which i would associate with a more sanguine nature.. however it is the moon that is the sect luminary and it is opposite venus/mars conjunction in pisces which i am not sure how to translate in terms of temperament. mostly i think of moon opp venus as more social which is how i think of the 'wetness' as opposed to dryness quality of planets/signs and etc..


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james_m



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the way i understand using the trigon lords doing hellenistic is first looking at the trigon lords off the luminary of sect. in staceys chart this would be sun in aquarius which has as trigon lords saturn and mercury with jupiter also participating - dorotheus triplicity system.

with darcy the moon in virgo has as trigon lords the moon, venus and mars participating..

in staceys chart the moon is very strong on the ascendant degree.. if we use the trigon lords of the ascendant which are the same as the moon we get the sun, jupiter and saturn participating.. either way the 4th quadrant is quite strong suggesting the sanguine temperament on the basis of this alone.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Tony Blair Reply with quote

Sanguine Chart #3: Tony Blair
May 6, 1953
6:10 am BST (-1)
Edinburgh, Scotland
Ascendant: 11Tau43 (Krishnamurti)
Rodden Rating: AA (BC)

Tony Blair is the third sanguine chart, which Greenbaum used as an example chart in her book. Blair was considered a popular, energetic and persuasive leader who won a third term election.

His chart is dominated by planets in the Taurus trigon if we consider the ascendant the main focus point, Jupiter and Mars are just above the Taurus ascendant, and the Moon trines the ascendant from Capricorn. For a person in a high political position, the Sun is exalted in Aries, but in the 12th house. This Sun is eclipsed by the Taurus planets on the ascendant. However, the Moon in sanguine Capricorn closely squares the Sun.

(1) Domicile lord of the Ascendant:
The domicile lord of the ascendant is Venus exalted in Pisces in the 11th house. This is a benefic house, but Venus in Pisces is choleric, very active. It may be cooled somewhat by the opposition from Saturn in sanguine Virgo.

(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune
Saturn in sanguine Virgo is the domicile lord of Fortuna.

(3) Trigon lords of the sect light
This is a diurnal chart with the Sun in Aries, so the Sun is the primary trigon lord. We can suppose it's significant that the sanguine Moon in Capricorn makes the only close aspect to the Sun. Secondary lord Jupiter is above the ascendant in sanguine Taurus in the bounds of Venus.

The Moon itself is in its own trigon in Capricorn (Its dispositor Saturn being one of the planets aspecting the exalted Venus.) The Moon also happens to be in the terms of Venus, and aspects Venus by a three degree sextile. Venus itself crosses from the navamsa chart to the natal ascendant--in sanguine Capricorn (tropical Aquarius).

In these three Sanguine charts--Stacy, Darcy and Tony Blair, there's an unmistakable emphasis on the Moon and Venus and the Taurus triplicity. The symbolism holds together when combining the Moon, Venus, Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn. Tropical astrology is correct in noting the sanguine nature of these sign areas, but in the tropical zodiac these three areas are labeled Air signs whose triplicity lords are Saturn and Mercury.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
the way i understand using the trigon lords doing hellenistic is first looking at the trigon lords off the luminary of sect. in staceys chart this would be sun in aquarius which has as trigon lords saturn and mercury with jupiter also participating - dorotheus triplicity system.

with darcy the moon in virgo has as trigon lords the moon, venus and mars participating..

in staceys chart the moon is very strong on the ascendant degree.. if we use the trigon lords of the ascendant which are the same as the moon we get the sun, jupiter and saturn participating.. either way the 4th quadrant is quite strong suggesting the sanguine temperament on the basis of this alone.

Thanks for getting these charts posted so quickly, James! For myself I wouldn't use the participating trigon lords in a study of temperament, as they really belong to another trigon. I suppose they have their uses, but I don't believe they should be applied for temperament. I'm not even sure we should be looking at the secondary trigon lord for the sect light.

For the time being it seems that planets aspecting the ascendant may have a greater sway than the sect light if the sect light is tucked away in a a less significant area of the chart.

Therese
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that makes sense therese. maybe we can stop and review what we have done so far as opposed to adding more charts to the thread?

blair has sun and moon in the 4th quadrant from ascendant to midheaven which again suggests a stronger sanguine emphasis..


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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, these are all the temperament charts I plan to post for now. Four melancholic and three sanguine. So let's see if they generate some discussion that will teach us something. Many thanks again for posting the charts. Very helpful!

I calculated your chart, James, and your wife is right. You are a grand mixture:
Moon in choleric Scorpio, but opposed by a sanguine Venus in Taurus
Saturn in Scorpio with the Moon: a touch of melancholy
Jupiter at the top of the chart in choleric Cancer
You have a strong Uranian influence. Uranus is on your navamsa ascendant and trine your natal ascendant.

Domicile lord of the Ascendant is Mars in Sagittarius. As far as temperament goes, I haven't figured out the Aries triplicity yet. The only temperament left is phlegmatic, and that doesn't seem suitable for the Sun-Jupiter trigon. But I haven't reviewed charts yet. For the melancholic and sanguine charts there was no particular emphasis on Aries, Leo and Sag. I know that the Cancer trigon is choleric.

Moon on the ascendant is your sect light, so Mars is its trigon lord in Sagittarius. Also sanguine Venus.

Pluto in Leo should be important since it squares your ascendant from house 10, but I haven't figured out Leo yet. (That would be tropical Virgo.)

If I had to limit you to two temperament types, they would be choleric/sanguine. Check out that combination in Greenbaum's book.

The reason you can't figure out your primary temperament is because you are indeed a grand mixture! So enjoy your mixed identity!

The reason we're having these conversations is because your Ascendant and Moon conjoin my Mercury in Scorpio.

Therese
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese, i appreciate it! well, you can see the synastry. that is cool!

i think i am more 'wet' then 'dry'. i have this desire to reach out and connect with others which i associate with wetness. however i can go it alone and have lived like a hermit for a number of years prior to being with my wife susan of 22 years. the moon/saturn on the ascendant seems to suggest this to me.

the 2 wet temperaments are sanguine and phlegmatic. in any mix i would say i am more wet then dry, however when i read those mixed descriptions the one that i relate to the best is the phlegmatic/melancholic.. i admit that i can see some truth to all of them however which is part of the reason i ponder the idea of being a mix of all 4!!!

i like this simple breakdown of wet, dry, or hot, cold for a description of temperament. the 4 temperaments are a mix of 2 in any direction. perhaps i can comment on the charts sometime tomorrow. i have a busy day today. cheers james
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:18 am    Post subject: Elizabeth Melillo and Temperament Reply with quote

It's important to understand that temperament as defined and used in Dorian Greenbaum's book...and this is very important...APPLIES ONLY IN THE TROPICAL ZODIAC. I have used some of the birth charts in Greenbaum's book to help describe the sidereal triplicities because those children have been professionally typed for temperament.

However, in puzzling over the only remaining temperament (phlegmatic), and wondering how it could ever be applied to the remaining Aries triplicity, I did some research on the Internet which was very enlightening. In short, there are other ways to understand temperament.

Here is a very interesting link I found which greatly helps to clarify temperamental dispositions in relation to the sidereal triplicities. The author of the site is Elizabeth G. Melillo, Ph.D, doctor of humanities with a particular interest in medieval culture and ascetic theology. (A very short autobiography is on Amazon.)

http://www.gloriana.nu/temperaments.html

The explanations Dr. Melillo gives regarding the temperaments are truly eye opening, and they make us realize our shortcomings as astrologers in understanding the concepts of temperament. Dr. Melillo's description of the phlegmatic temperament suits Aristotle's description of "Hot" and the sidereal Aries triplicity to a "T." Here are some excerpts:

"Frequently....they can be extraordinary scholars...Those intellectually gifted have the unique ability to be something approaching purely cognitive. Neither passion nor the need for attention will cloud their judgement and speculation...The very lack of passion inherent in the phlegmatic, which can appear to be indifference in relationships with others, will keep their intellectual vision from becoming clouded.

"The phlegmatic have a degree of detachment that makes for great minds, but does not foster warm relationships....the phlegmatic is the translator, writer, scientist - and quite possibly, creator of illuminated manuscripts."

To compare this to Aristotle's HOT (which can also be related to the Stoic FIRE which had only one designation: Hot)

Aries, Leo, Sagittarius (sky area of tropical earth signs)
Labeled HOT and composed of:
Active quality: motivation and creative energy drawn from within (the psychological mainframe)
Masculine type: mental orientation, use of the mind

Triplicity lords:
Sun (From Dykes: benevolent, light, splendor, reason and intellect, strength, victory, lofty mind, wisdom, supremacy of first place, power, forcefulness)
Jupiter (regal, powerful, moderate, generous, happy, humorous, firmness, wisdom, patience, hope, joy, sharpness of mind, boldness, esteemed)

And there we have it, I believe. The symbolism in the sidereal zodiac is clear and coherent. Dr. Melillo's descriptions of all four temperaments are the best I have seen anywhere, and go far beyond the descriptions of temperament in children in Greenbaum's book.

There is a significant difference in the qualities of the temperaments in medieval texts and Aristotle's early four qualities of hot, cold, wet and dry, as well as the Stoic designations. For example, the Stoic Air was simply Cold, but the medieval Air is hot and wet. This comparison is an interesting study, and also illustrates an important difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs.

Therese
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

note - this is a special edit for therese who has told me privately that she is unable to read my paragraphs as they are too long.. hopefully this works for you therese,

hi therese,

i think greenbaums book is very good in that it doesn't just rely on one period of history to define the meaning and use of the idea of temperament. it is a more thorough study on the topic that would be hard to replicate and is thus an invaluable source for anyone studying this concept..

yes, it is also couched in the tropical zodiac, but that is only a part of it.

i think anyone who reads the book recognizes very quickly that there are some disconnects when bringing planet and sign meanings together to form a perspective on temperament using these ideas of wet, dry, cold and hot.. the language has its limitations.

i did read the link you provided with dr. mellilos comments on the temperaments.. clearly she isn't involved in astrology, or if she has studied it any it is not so obvious.

i thought she had some interesting things to say about temperament, but feel like the biggest disconnect was with her comments on the phlegmatic temperament.

my impression is a desire on your part to use temperament to prove the validity of the sidereal zodiac as the ""correct"" zodiac and for some reason i can't erase this impression from my viewpoint on where you want to go with the conversation here..

correct me if i am wrong. on the other hand i have no such agenda other then a better understanding of how temperament might be found thru the study of astrology.. i don't really care what zodiac is used to do this, but it is making me think about the basis for the 2 zodiacs more strongly as a result..

obviously there is a cross over with many ideas and techniques that may or may not have originated with one or the other. i see them as 2 different reference points myself. the tropic zodiac defines the relationship between the sun and planets as viewed from planet earth, while the sidereal zodiac views the sun in relation to other stars and the position of earth in response to that..

i don't think one zodiac negates the other. however for us to understand the use of temperament in relation to either presents a challenge as the concept might have been coming from a basis in one particular zodiac more then the other.. i don't know the history well enough to comment on this..

what i do know is the common tendency to make a connection between the elements and the 4 temperaments.. whether this was based on a particular zodiac, i tend to doubt it..

it has always been my belief that making a connection with the planets and human behaviour and traits is really the first most obvious connection.. for this to happen, it doesn't require a zodiac!!!

when i think saturn is melancholic for example, i am not thinking it all hinges on what sign or zodiac saturn is in!! perhaps this allows me a type of freedom that those committed to a particular zodiac don't have in seeing the importance of the planet outweighing the importance of a particular sign.

on the other hand i do think that the 4 seasons and these ideas of wet, dry, hot and cold have an obvious connection so in this sense i can see an immediate connection with the basic ideas of temperament and the seasonal focus that defines much of the tropical zodiac..

i have a harder time seeing it with the sidereal zodiac if i emphasize the sign positions which is what it seems like you are most intent on doing! if we leave out sign positions what happens? i don't think the astro symbolism breaks down as quickly as others might..

if astrology is primarily focused on the planets, nothing has changed! if planetary aspects or relationships with other planets is an important consideration, it still hasn't changed.. if it is about the planetary position relative to the time of day - houses and ascendant or midheaven axis, it still hasn't changed...

for this reason i see the importance of signs as over-rated and in particular by those who want to resolve what i said earlier i believe are 2 equally valid reference points to viewing astrology.. i suppose i am a dis-believer in the divide and conquer mindset and go back to wanting to see the relativity in either way of believing or practicing astrology..

one word that the article mentioned that i would like to comment on is the word 'react'.. to quote from your first link

"A dear friend of mine had an excellent way of expressing the differences between the temperaments that I shall quote here.

The basic difference between each is the amount of time it takes one to react and the duration of the resultant reaction. The sanguine reaction will be quick but brief, the phlegmatic's long and brief, the choleric's quick and enduring, and the melancholic's lengthy and permanent.

This simple definition has more relevance than appears at first glance."

i believe it is the moon that 'reacts' more then any other planetary body in use by astrologers.. this might explain why the position of the moon and the aspects it forms, or the house and sign position are more central to a study of temperament..

it has to do with the semi conscious or unconscious expression of the moon and our inability to recognize how our 'temperament' is something inescapable only in so far as we remain prisoner to it in not being able to see it consciously..

this to me is one of the great benefits of astrology - we are given the opportunity to get a more conscious read on our own or others inclinations, or predisposition to respond or react as certain way..

of course response implies a greater degree of objectivity then react does. in so far as we are able to respond, we have greater freedom from our tribal or ancestral patterns that again i believe reflect the moon and the family patterns we have a deep and less conscious awareness of..

so, i thought her focus on her friends comments on this way of defining temperament was most interesting for these reasons i have tried to articulate here.


Last edited by james_m on Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:

Quote:
hi therese,
my impression is a desire on your part to use temperament to prove the validity of the sidereal zodiac as the ""correct"" zodiac and for some reason i can't erase this impression from my viewpoint on where you want to go with the conversation here.. correct me if i am wrong.

Well, of course you are right, James. This is a sidereal forum, isn't it? Why would I want to support tropical concepts here? There are many thousands of posts on Skyscript that do that. In contrast sidereal astrologers have only this one very small section of Skyscript where they can post their ideas.

Therese
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

This is a sidereal forum, isn't it? Therese


yes, you have come to the right place therese.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Why would I want to support tropical concepts here? Therese


did i ask you to support a tropical concept? please point that out to me as i missed it! i believe i mentioned in my last post, i don't think the concept of temperament hinges on which zodiac a person uses.

greenbaums book which you have opted to focus on was written using the tropical zodiac... perhaps you'd like to debate greenbaum and her choice of doing this? i am not able to comment about why greenbaum opted to do the charts in her book in tropical zodiac, but i think it is fair to discuss the tropical zodiac in so far as all the examples are from her book!

i haven't made which zodiac is the best zodiac the focus of the conversation but i get the impression now that you'd like to..
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
James wrote:

Quote:
hi therese,
my impression is a desire on your part to use temperament to prove the validity of the sidereal zodiac as the ""correct"" zodiac and for some reason i can't erase this impression from my viewpoint on where you want to go with the conversation here.. correct me if i am wrong.

Well, of course you are right, James.
Therese


if you want to discuss temperament, let me know.. if you want to discuss which is the right zodiac to use, im not interested..
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