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Traditional Ideas in the Sidereal: Trigons and Temperament
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Traditional Ideas in the Sidereal: Trigons and Temperament Reply with quote

For this topic we all need to remember that this is a sidereal forum. Anyone is free to accept, reject or modify material here. But this is not the place to argue the tropical point of view. The sidereal concepts introduced here are unique, and deserve their own study without entanglement with tropical concepts which have an entirely different starting premise.

Part 1: Sorting out the Triplicities (Four Trigons of Signs)

The tropical labels of fire, earth, air and water have no relationship to the sidereal signs. These labels are possibly not even suited to the tropical signs as Rob Hand has discussed in his commentary on Project Hindsight's Tetrabiblos, Volume 1 (p. 16-17) Aristotle placed Air opposite Earth and Fire opposite Water, so the sidereal perspective rejects this element-sign relationship as not being tenable. (In the tropical zodiac air signs are opposite fire, and earth signs are opposite water.)

Element-sign correlations were not used in India, the stronghold of the sidereal zodiac, until B.V.Raman (who studied western astrology) introduced the sign-element relationship in his early books in the mid 20th century. The earliest date I have for a Raman book is 1940 when Astrology For Beginners was published. In that book the signs are called airy, earthy, watery and fiery, but no further descriptions are given.

However, Rob Hand's suggestion (based on Robert Schmidt's translation) is that Ptolemy himself didn't link the elements to the triplcities, but instead in Tetrabiblos referred to the qualities of hot, cold, wet and dry. (Combined these produce Aristotle's four elements.) This is a complex discussion, and it's best to refer to Rob Hand's original commentary for a full understanding of the concepts involved.

A possible Sidereal perspective links Aristotle's basic four qualities to the triplcities. These are in their proper relationship to each other in the zodiac. Hot is opposite Cold, and Wet is opposite Dry. However, these qualities have nothing to do with weather conditions or seasons. Very briefly I'm discussing a possible sign correlation here, but there is more detail in the link below. The article link also contains Rob Hand's quotes on the elements and qualities from Robert Schmidt's Project Hindsight translation of Tetribiblos.

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aatrigonsaddendum.htm
"More on Sidereal Polarity and the Trigons"

Summary of Aristotle's principles that can be related to signs of the zodiac:
Male and Female:

Reflecting the society in which he lived, Aristotle elevated the rational over the passionate or emotional. He discussed gender especially in the History of Animals. Aristotle observed the female to be softer in character, more easily moved to tears, more compassionate, but also more jealous and quarrelsome. (That is, the female displays emotion!) Aristotle respected the male characteristics of courage and rationality over emotional attributes which he considered to be inferior.

Active and Passive:
Aristotle's active and passive don't resemble our contemporary astrological understanding of those terms. Instead, they are related to functions of intellect. One understanding is that the active intellect relates to a fixed and stable set of concepts, a link to a universal mainframe (hard drive), so to speak.

There is the suggestion that the active intellect is linked to the immortality of the soul, a universal constant. A modern commentary states: "The active intellect...is more properly called the Agent Intellect, as it is the force...causing thoughts to pass from the potential to the actual." (Absolute Astronomy.com)

We might call this the creative energy that manifests especially in the arts or in functions such as entrepreneurship, the inward motivation to produce something original and significant over which one has personal control. This is basically a solar function, the Sun being the power and light center of the solar system.

However commentators and students of Aristotle wish to understand the active intellect, the general idea is that it's more central and universal than the passive. The passive is external to the active, and is related more to the outer world. (Thus, the usual astrological understanding of "active" is what Aristotle might term passive!)

Aristotle's passive has been said to relate to matter or the world of forms, the body. The passive intellect would relate to computer data files, but not the hard drive itself. This function can be related to the Moon which collects and reflects light from the Sun.

In our human world this would be the sociability factor where we reach out and link with others, asking opinions, joining energies to produce the finished product. This is the energy needed in team sports where cooperation is essential, committee meetings, conformity to a church or other organization, the helpful secretary, even the person who frequents the lecture circuit sharing concepts with an audience and soliciting response. (This is the type of energy that is called "active" in western astrological systems.)

Wet and Dry:
Aristotle's Dry is said to be algebraic, object oriented, solid, rigid, clear, enhancing distinctions; we might relate these qualities to the rational mind as separate from emotional reaction.

Aristotle's Wet is spatial, geometric, liquid, able to assume the shape of the container, fluid, formless, ambiguous, blurring distinctions, "irrational" according to Aristotle Thus, related to what might be understood as feminine or emotional psychology with instant responses to the moment.

Now that a sidereal foundation has been introduced, these qualities can be correlated to the four triplicities of the zodiac It's helpful here to introduce a portion of Rob Hand's commentary from Tetrabiblos:

"The text does appear to be saying that Hot = Masculine, Wet = Feminine, Dry = Masculine, Cold = Feminine. If Ptolemy is completely in accord with standard Aristotelianism in which Hot and Cold are both active whereas Wet and Dry are both passive, then Ptolemy here classifies Hot = Active & Masculine, Cold = Active & Feminine, Wet = Passive & Feminine and Dry = Passive and Masculine. If this analysis is correct it has all manner of interesting symbolic consequences for astrology." (p. 17)

In another post we can look at these qualities in relation to the four trigons and the traditional triplicity lords first introduced by Dorotheus (first century C.E.) These qualities can be illustrated with sidereal charts from Dorian Greenbaum's Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key . (But I have forgotten how to upload charts to the forum!)

Continued in Part 2, Sidereal Trigons and Temperament
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part 2: Sidereal Trigons and Temperament

It is good to review here Rob Hand's comments from Part 1:

"...If Ptolemy is completely in accord with standard Aristotelianism in which Hot and Cold are both active whereas Wet and Dry are both passive, then Ptolemy here classifies Hot = Active & Masculine, Cold = Active & Feminine, Wet = Passive & Feminine and Dry = Passive and Masculine. If this analysis is correct it has all manner of interesting symbolic consequences for astrology." (p. 17)

In Definitions and Foundations Robert Schmidt noted that an entire trigon shared a similar energy. This energy is at least partly reflected in the natures of the rulers of each triplicity and are reflected in the three signs of each trigon. The planetary notes below are taken from Benjamin Dykes' volume, Introductions to Traditional Astrology, Book 5: Planetary Natures. These traits are a fair summary of the characteristics associated with planets from early Hellenistic to medieval times.

Aries, Leo, Sagittarius (sky area of tropical earth signs)
Labeled HOT and composed of:
Active quality: motivation and creative energy drawn from within (the psychological mainframe)
Masculine type: mental orientation, use of the mind
Triplicity lords:
Sun ("I am the center of my universe." From Dykes: benevolent, light, splendor, reason and intellect, strength, victory, lofty mind, wisdom, supremacy of first place, power, forcefulness)
Jupiter (Regal, powerful, moderate, generous, happy, humorous, firmness, wisdom, patience, hope, joy, sharpness of mind, boldness, esteemed)

Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn (sky area of tropical air signs)
Labeled DRY and composed of:
Passive quality: social and networking motivation; outward focus
Masculine type: mental orientation, capacity to think
Triplicity lords:
Moon (benevolent, phlegmatic, desires joy and beauty and being praised; adjusts her nature to others, cheerful to people, flattered by them, forgetful, timid, a flawless heart)
Venus (benevolent, phlegmatic, amiable toward friends, love of singing and amusements, love of children and people, dutiful, gracious, generous

Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces (sky area of tropical fire signs)
Labeled WET and composed of:
Passive quality: social and networking motivation; outward focus
Feminine type: emotional orientation, response through feelings
Triplicity lords:
Mars (choleric, abrupt courage tendency to anger, quickness [spontaneous], lack of self control, showing of friendship, instability)
Venus: (benevolent, amiable toward friends, love of singing and amusements, love of children and people, dutiful, gracious, generous)

Gemini, Libra, Aquarius (sky area of tropical water signs)
Labeled COLD and composed of:
Active quality: motivation and creative energy drawn from within
Feminine type: emotional or intuitive orientation
Triplicity lords:
Saturn (cold, melancholic, moist, solitary, fears, grief, sorrow
Mercury (of a nature open to all planets and the signs; Mercury bends with his nature toward the one who is complected to him; rhetoric and eloquence, sweetness of speech, scarcity of joy, inclination to piety, mercy and calm; infirmities of the soul, horrible thoughts, disquiet of the mind [psychological disturbance])

These sign types are somewhat distinct from the general male-odd, female-even sign polarities. In particular the Gemini trigon requires an explanation. Though these signs are grouped with the other three odd numbered signs which are termed masculine, they have a strong feminine component. This was recognized in antiquity where Valens refers to these signs as "feminizing" (Riley translation), "effeminate" (Schmidt translation) or "womanish" (Gehrz translation).

So this trigon shares the Active quality (inward focus) with Aries, Leo and Sagittarius, but the nature is more toward feminine qualities. This is a very interesting trigon of signs that (as tropical water) has been little understood by astrological writers. Mercury as a triplicity lord reflects this dichotomy as Mercury adjusts to the nature of the sign it transits as well as aspecting planets. Saturn is often seen astrologically as a neutral planet, neither strongly masculine or feminine.

If we take some time to consider the characteristics of the four qualities and compare them to triplicity lords, there is generally a good harmony between the two sets of traits. These can be easily related to temperament, and is naturally a very different schema than that found in the tropical zodiac:

Gemini trigon: melancholic, Saturn as a triplicity lord (sky area of tropical water)
Taurus trigon: sanguine, Moon and Venus as triplicity lords (sky area of tropical air)
Aries trigon: phlegmatic (?) Sun and Jupiter as triplicity lords; This may be a weaker correlation (sky area of tropical earth) But these signs are definitely not melancholic.
Cancer trigon: choleric; This is a strong correlation as Mars is the main triplicity lord (sky area of tropical fire)

Continued in Part 3: Case Studies
Next we tend to find the appropriate sidereal trigon prominent in extreme temperament charts of children described in Dorian Greenbaum's book.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

thanks for sharing. i don't know if you saw the paper that chris brennan shared a month or 2 ago, but you might find it interesting. take a look at page 12 to see how the element positions contrast with the way they are ordinarily placed.
http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/the-planetary-joys.pdf
there was a discussion on this on the news bulletin and etc forum here at skyscript.

i think it would be most educational if you were to use examples from greenbaums book to highlight your methodology for others here. otherwise it seems mostly theoretical and more difficult to appreciate.

i don't know how much of connecting aristotles work to astrology was of benefit to astrology. i suppose that is a separate conversation, but it does weigh heavily on the issue of temperament and the use of the elements to define temperament. i don't know that aristotle was the first to discuss or introduce the elements and the temperaments or just what the astrological history is on this coming together of elements and astrology was.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi therese,

thanks for sharing. i don't know if you saw the paper that chris brennan shared a month or 2 ago, but you might find it interesting. take a look at page 12 to see how the element positions contrast with the way they are ordinarily placed.
http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/the-planetary-joys.pdf
there was a discussion on this on the news bulletin and etc forum here at skyscript.

i think it would be most educational if you were to use examples from greenbaums book to highlight your methodology for others here. otherwise it seems mostly theoretical and more difficult to appreciate.
.

Thanks for the link, James. I'll check it out. I hadn't seen Chris' paper. You are right, of course, that the foundation I've set out can seem to be only theoretical without examples. I decided to put the charts in a separate post so this one wouldn't be too long. Also I have to review the method of posting charts again. I'll try to get them posted today. The work is already completed on melancholic and sanguine charts.

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Melancholic Charts Reply with quote

Part 3: Case Studies

My computer time is really short today, and I have to review how to insert charts into messages, but for the time being here is the chart of "Fern" from Greenbaum's book. I'll correct this message later and find a way of inserting the birth chart.

For a sidereal study we can begin with the most extreme case of melancholia in Greenbaum's book, the sad little child she calls "Fern." Fern's tropical chart is illustrated on pages 61 and 184.

Greenbaum doesn't give the birth data for the children in her book, but it's easy to find the date of birth in order to compute the sidereal charts. I worked out each chart so the ascendant and Moon degree would be correct as adjusted from the tropical charts in the book. I used New Haven, CT as the default place of birth. With these methods a sidereal chart can be calculated for Fern:

October 27, 1985
12:13 pm EST
New Haven CT
Asc 25 Sag 17 (Krishnamurti) Moon 29 Pisces 38

The tropical MC is 15 Lib 23. For an exact conversion to the sidereal 6 deg 23 minutes can be added to this position (then go back one sign) for the true sidereal MC. Not knowing the birth location, the MC using the New Haven coordinates will be wrong. So I set up all charts in the equal house system which will emphasize aspects to the ascendant.

The description of Fern's temperament is on page 60. In part:

"Fern is an almost classic melancholic, according to her teachers. Thin, gangly and slightly stoop shouldered, she believes that life is a series of disappointments. She feels that no one understands her....During the 4th grade year, she cried almost every day because of one slight or another. She had no concept of empathy or how to be social..." (Anyone who has the book can read the full description.)

The tropical chart illustrated in the book contains a stellium of planets in Scorpio, a sign ruled by hot, dry, choleric Mars in traditional astrology. The sidereal stellium moves to "cold" Libra. The bright sun is in its fall here, and the sign reflects the melancholic nature of Saturn's influence on Libra. (This melancholic nature can be generally observed in tropical Scorpio.)

Fern's tropical chart also has a pleasant looking Venus in it's own "sanguine" sign of Libra, but in the sidereal zodiac Venus (the dispositor of the Libra stellium) is in its fall in Virgo in square aspect to the ascendant. The Moon is in "choleric" tropical Aries, but in the sidereal chart is in the last half degree of "wet" Pisces.

Robert Schmidt has noted that the Hellenistic astrologers considered three positions of primary importance in charts: (1) the domicile lord of the ascendant; (2) the domicile lord of Fortuna; (3) trigon lords of the sect light. So we can experiment with these positions in Fern's chart in the sidereal:

(1) Sagittarius rises (in the bounds of Saturn), and ascendant lord Jupiter is in its fall in Capricorn, a sign of Saturn.

(2) The Lot of fortune is in Gemini: Domicile lord is Mercury with Saturn in an unfriendly sign for both, Scorpio. There is no sect or rulership affiliation for either planet in Scorpio.

(3) Trigon lords of the sect light, Sun: day lord Saturn is in Scorpio. (From previous posts, note that Scorpio is a sign of the Wet trigon.)

Night lord Mercury is in Scorpio with Saturn, as above for the domicile lord of Fortuna.

So if we consider the Gemini trigon as primarily melancholic, in the sidereal chart there is a clear picture of melancholia. It doesn't seem necessary to bring in a number of diverse factors searching for a melancholic temperament as was done in Greenbaum's book.

The principle of sidereal planetary debilities (falls) operates in this chart: Jupiter in Capricorn, Sun in Libra, Venus in Virgo. None of the other planets are in their own triplicity or sect. This child carries a heavy psychological burden.

I am not sure the bounds have anything to do with temperament, but noted that the ascendant and Moon are in the bounds of Saturn while Saturn and Mercury in Scorpio are not helped by being in the bounds of Mars.

Fern's chart is especially interesting when contrasted with sidereal Sanguine charts.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

here is the chart for fern using
October 27, 1985
12:13 pm EST
New Haven CT
Asc 25 Sag 17 (Krishnamurti) Moon 29 Pisces 38


windows 7 screen shot

solar fire program rates this as a choleric chart based off 4 considerations -
1 - sign of ascendant sag is hot and dry
2 - ruler of ascendant is in cap - cold and dry
3 - sign of moon pisces is wet and cold
4 - phase of moon is gibbous which is hot and dry

that adds up to 2 hot, 2 cold and 3 dry.
choleric is hot and dry.

when i do the chart in tropical it comes up with the same final total, although it is gotten differently.

in greenbaums book 6 different astrologers methods are used to arrive at temperament. of the 6 the dry quality predominates using the tropical chart. hot shows up more then cold with the 6 different astrologers approach in a 19 to 12 ratio.

i wonder if fern changed over the course of her life and if it is possible that a young girl analyzed in grade 4 would be different as an adult?

i feel like i am no further ahead using the different methodology of any of this!

i associate the melancholic temperament with cold and dry characteristics.. i think of the fall as the season that captures this the best.. if you go on the basis of an emphasis on the signs from libra to sag with a greater weight of planets and or midheaven and ascendant in these signs - both tropical and sidereal support this idea.

if i go with tropical capricorn with the ascendant ruler saturn in an angle in the sign scorpio i can get a melancholic emphasis. i have a harder time with this with sag rising and jupiter in capricorn in the 2nd..

i know we are not debating sidereal and tropical, but it would be nice to be allowed the freedom to speak openly on this somewhere on this site@!

perhaps you or others have some pertinent thoughts on how one arrives at a melancholic temperament off the sidereal chart. it isn't making sense to me yet.. it doesn't make sense according to the software or the scoring systems of the 6 astrologers methodology working with the tropical chart either..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the chart, James, but you are following tropical methods with the sidereal chart. So you're not "getting it" from the sidereal point of view. We are supposed to be looking at the quality of signs as per Aristotle, not the tropical hot, cold, etc.

The planets in signs are the key, not (for example) the ascendant sign which has no planets. We look at the lord of the ascendant instead. I don't think you read the earlier posts very carefully. Maybe try again? Or maybe I wasn't very clear on how to approach the charts sidereally.

You wrote:
solar fire program rates this as a choleric chart based off 4 considerations -
1 - sign of ascendant sag is hot and dry
Comment: We don't use the ascendant sign by itself with sidereal methods. As in ancient times we look at the lord of the ascendant. In the sidereal system Sag isn't hot and dry in the sense that tropical Sag is said to be.

2 - ruler of ascendant is in cap - cold and dry
Comment: "Cold and dry" is only in the tropical zodiac. The point here is that Jupiter is in the sign of its fall, thus not able to express its cheerful nature. This placement is a point for Saturn. We have to combine the planet with the sign. We can't take the sign placement alone. Is the planet happy there? Able to have full expression of its qualties?

3 - sign of moon pisces is wet and cold
Comment: If you read the first two posts, Pisces is an emotional sign in the Mars ruled trigon. "Wet" referns only to its feminine emotional nature. The sign temperatures (cold and wet) are only used in the tropical system.

4 - phase of moon is gibbous which is hot and dry
Comment: This has no meaning in the sidereal system. We are testing here the trigons and planets only.

It's difficult to adjust one's thinking to sidereal concepts. This is because the temperament and humor development has been only in the tropical system. The sidereal system follows earlier Hellenistic concepts with emphasis on planetary dignities and rulerships.

I think it's a good idea to be able to "speak freely" as you say, as long as the conversation remains civil. It looks like the topical will have to come into the discussion as it seems to be a difficult jump to think only in the sidereal. Thanks for your thoughts, James. But we need to adjust our minds to think sidereally.

Therese
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
"I associate the melancholic temperament with cold and dry characteristics.. i think of the fall as the season that captures this the best.. if you go on the basis of an emphasis on the signs from libra to sag with a greater weight of planets and or midheaven and ascendant in these signs - both tropical and sidereal support this idea."

I would agree that the fall season would tend to produce a melancholic disposition, but winter is worse as that's when seasonal affective disorder (SAD) sets in. But as I said in my previous post, we're looking at Hellenistic methods for the basic temperament. In Fern's chart there are no really good planetary placements. It's a good idea to use Robert Schmidt's principles mentioned previously.

Dispositors are also used as a way to rate planetary influence. Sun is in its fall in a sign of Saturn's trigon. The dispositor is Venus in Virgo. This is actually an interesting placement and one of the puzzles of ancient astrology as Venus rules the Taurus trigon, but is in its fall in Virgo. So we look at the dispositor which is Mercury and see in Fern's chart that it's badly placed in Scorpio with Saturn. It's all in reading the flow of the chart without reference to software rating sytems which tend to be mechanical.

In Fern's chart I'd definitely use Pluto, which earlier astrologers understood to be very isolating and apart from others, very internalized. It is with the Sun in its fall. Also Ketu (Moon's south node) is with Pluto and the Sun. It's all quite a dismal combination. (And of course this is not found in Hellenistic astrology!)

We would need to use a system of progressions to see if Fern's disposition might have been better in adulthood.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who don't have Greenbaum's book, I neglected to post Melancholic traits:

Succeeds through hard work and patience
Don't get your hopes up
Nothing is ever good enough
Really good at analyzing and organizing
The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train
Idea of a fun time is reading the dictionary
Likes to play the blame game
Lost to the sanguine in the Student Council election

So the Melancholic temperament sounds a lot like Saturn with some Mercury thrown in. These are the triplicity lords of the Gemini trigon. This is the point I was trying to make: Each trigon of signs can be generally linked to one of the temperaments in the sidereal zodiac. And the planetary trigon lords have a lot to do with the nature of the signs.

In the tropical zodiac Saturn and Mercury are the trigon lords of the AIR triplicity, which has been observed to be sanguine. The trigon lords don't match the nature of the signs.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

thanks for the feedback. i found it interesting your comment that the phase of the moon isn't a consideration.. i am curious how you integrate many of the ideas in greenbaums book.

as was shown in the book immediately following the example of fern, 6 astrological approaches to temperament were explained in a manner in keeping with that astrologer, ptolemy, montulmo, schoener, garcaeus, lilly and patridge. it is unfortunate the book didn't include the works of an astrologer working in sidereal as i would have been curious to know the basis for their perspective.

on the one hand i can agree that a software program is more mechanical and less intuitive then a person can be, but this is good for certain things which is something that many people forget.. when you get 6 different astrologers giving a different view on the temperament of a chart it is probably helpful to get a mechanical or astro software viewpoint as well!!

well, we agree on the seasonal emphasis having relevance and this is also something that is discussed by these same astrologers. not to tip the apple cart, but a seasonal approach to astrology seems more supportive of tropical then sidereal to me. what do you think?

here is a question for you - do you think temperament is fixed and can't change, or do you think it is capable of changing? i was sort of asking this with the example of fern. it sounds as though you think it can based on your response, but i am more curious for a specific answer to this.

i am curious how you would define yourself with regard to temperament?

i have great difficulty doing it with myself and if pressed for an answer would probably say a mix of 3 with the least emphasis on sanguine, but i think i have some of that in me too!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Derek, a Melancholic Reply with quote

Here is another chart of a child who was typed as melancholic.
Derek
22 February 1986
11:13 am EST
New Haven, CT
Asc 21Tau47 (Krishnamurti)

James, could you kindly post this chart?

Derek's tropical birth chart is on p.180 in Greenbaum's book. The MC is 18 Pisces 25; the adjustment for Krishnamurti is 6 deg 26 min. The MC will fall between Venus and Mercury, two degrees from Mercury.

Dorian Greenbaum writes (about his tropical chart):
"...his chart remains somewhat of a mystery in regard to his temperament."

As with Fern's chart, Derek's sidereal chart contains elevated planets in a sign of the Gemini trigon, Aquarius: Jupiter, Sun, Venus, MC and Mercury. Dispositor Saturn is in Scorpio, a sign which as no affinity to Saturn. Using early Hellenistic emphasis according to Robert Schmidt:

(1) Domicile lord of the Ascendant is Venus, here placed in Saturn's sign of Aquarius
(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune is also Venus. Fortuna itself is in the 6th house in Libra.
(3) Trigon lords of the sect light:
Saturn is in unfriendly Scorpio opposing the ascendant and squaring the Aquarian stellium
Mercury is part of the stellium in Aquarius. Saturn and Mercury exchange their bounds.

The major aspects to the Moon in (Wet-feminine emotional) Cancer include the trine from Saturn-Mars in Scorpio. There is also the Pluto and S. node emphasis (as in Fern's chart) in the square from Libra. These Libra planets also trine the Aquarius stellium.

So Derek's planets fall almost entirely in the Gemini trigon with the Saturn aspect (with Mars) from Scorpio. Using sidereal signs and Hellenistic triplicity lords there is no need to look at additional diverse methods to see the dominant influence of Saturn in Derek's chart for his melancholic temperament.

This is helped by the Moon's placement in a sign of the emotional feminine trigon. India's astrology would peg the Moon as problematic as it has no support from planets either in its own sign or in the two adjoining signs of Gemini and Leo.
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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therese,

one thought i had which i would like to continue to explore is the idea of the sect of the chart and the impact this might have on temperament. the other idea is the position of the planets by quadrant as possibility giving us more information on temperament and which doesn't get talked about any by greenbaum, or the astrologers she worked/studied on temperament..

it seems to me that these unique astrological factors which are taken into account more generally, are ignored with regard to temperament. i wonder if this is an oversight, or if they implies that the 'sign' position is considered more important then the house or quadrant position?
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
thanks for the feedback. i found it interesting your comment that the phase of the moon isn't a consideration.. i am curious how you integrate many of the ideas in greenbaums book. as was shown in the book immediately following the example of fern, 6 astrological approaches to temperament were explained in a manner in keeping with that astrologer, ptolemy, montulmo, schoener, garcaeus, lilly and patridge.
This made me smile, James, because I DON'T integrate them. The point is that all those methods developed in the tropical zodiac aren't necessary in the sidereal. The signs themselves have much more sway due to the triplicity lords. (And also the domicile lords.)

Quote:
well, we agree on the seasonal emphasis having relevance and this is also something that is discussed by these same astrologers. not to tip the apple cart, but a seasonal approach to astrology seems more supportive of tropical then sidereal to me. what do you think?

That is exactly right! And this is a reminder that the entire seasonal emphais is part of the foundation for the tropical zodiac, and has no relevance in the sidereal zodiac.

Quote:
here is a question for you - do you think temperament is fixed and can't change, or do you think it is capable of changing? i was sort of asking this with the example of fern. it sounds as though you think it can based on your response, but i am more curious for a specific answer to this.

This is a question for professional psychologists. True, I have a master's degree in psychology, but I am more or less out of the professional loop now. I believe the current wisdom is that our basic personalities remain the same throughout life. However, if spiritual methods are employed, one can adjust the natural tendencies somewhat.

Quote:
i am curious how you would define yourself with regard to temperament?i have great difficulty doing it with myself and if pressed for an answer would probably say a mix of 3 with the least emphasis on sanguine, but i think i have some of that in me too!

Oh, I am basically melancholic with some modification! Sun and Moon in Saturn's triplicity, Libra. (That's why I understand that sign as tropical Scorpio.) Ascendant lord Jupiter with Saturn. But this is modified by Jupiter in Aries in its own triplicity. Aries has a lot of power to use the mind (Aristotle's hot and active). So I'm basically a scholar (Mercury, triplicity lord of the Gemini trigon), and can override the melancholia, but not always. I also meditate daily. I can almost put the times I remember feeling happy in the palm of my hand. Ascendant lord Jupiter with Saturn in its fall. Also (for Jyotish astrologers) the majority of my navamsa planets are in Saturn's signs.)

In my opinion, a study of temperament is one of the best indications that the sidereal zodiac is perhaps the only valid zodiac for astrology. Yes, a strong statement!

James, if you want to post your birth data or send it to me privately, I'll be happy to look at your sidereal chart for temperament.

Therese
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:52 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
one thought i had which i would like to continue to explore is the idea of the sect of the chart and the impact this might have on temperament. the other idea is the position of the planets by quadrant as possibility giving us more information on temperament and which doesn't get talked about any by greenbaum, or the astrologers she worked/studied on temperament..

it seems to me that these unique astrological factors which are taken into account more generally, are ignored with regard to temperament. i wonder if this is an oversight, or if they implies that the 'sign' position is considered more important then the house or quadrant position?

Thanks very much for Derek's chart, James. I guess I can depend on you to post the charts on this topic as I list the birth data? That would be a big help as I get tired mentally from all this writing.

I'll think about how sect might work into temperament, but first we need a definition of sect here on the forum. Martin? I haven't looked at quadrant analysis. Maybe someone who has looked into that can post a message? I'll try to find time to review quadrant analysis within a day or two. But we have to define quadrants. Are they measured in the zodiac (10th cusp is the ascedant degree in the 10th sign) or is the MC/IC used for division? Every idea brings up new questions!

Therese
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

definition of sect -

is it a day chart or a night chart? is the sun above the horizon line or below? that is the critical feature of sect. the luminary of the day - sun or night - moon, becomes the luminary of sect based on whether it is a day or night chart. the trigon rulers of this luminary become more important based on an emphasis on sect. hopefully that is enough of a description of sect to give you a good idea.

it seems to me from the literature i have read on temperament that the moon is given special consideration in helping to define temperament. what this might mean for a day chart is that the moons position is less important then medieval astrologers placed on it. greenbaums book seemed to focus mostly on medieval astrologers, excluding ptolemy who did put strong emphasis on the moon by phase, sign, aspect and ruler of the moon.

as for quadrant emphasis - yes this could be another question based on whether one uses whole sign houses, or houses based on the fluctuating position of the midheaven in relation to the ascendant axis.. i mostly think of quadrant emphasis based off the actual midheaven axis, so not whole sign house based for me.

the charts of fern and derek are both day charts putting greater emphasis on the sun.. another feature of sect is how the sun works closely with jupiter and saturn - the other 2 planets of the day sect) while moon works closely with venus and mars the other 2 planets of the night sect.. mercury swings either way and is diurnal or nocturnal based on whether it rises before or after the sun - before is diurnal and after is nocturnal.

dereks mars on the descendant is a planet opposite the chart sect, so one wonders how much this has impact on his temperament?

ferns venus/moon opposition is brought together very closely via the ascendant axis and again these are the planets opposite the day sect..

in both these charts one wonders what impact, if any this would have on temperament. hellenistic astrology would suggest a clash of some sort based just off this, all as i understand it.
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