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Traditional Ideas in the Sidereal: Trigons and Temperament
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
(re: sect) is it a day chart or a night chart? is the sun above the horizon line or below? that is the critical feature of sect. the luminary of the day - sun or night - moon, becomes the luminary of sect based on whether it is a day or night chart. the trigon rulers of this luminary become more important based on an emphasis on sect. hopefully that is enough of a description of sect to give you a good idea.

And this the rule I've been using here, as according to Robert Schmidt the trigon lords of the sect light were extremely important in the chart. I just wanted to be sure that we were clear on the meaning of sect. I have been including the alternate (day or night) trigon lord, however, as Robert Schmidt used the plural form: "Trigon lords of the sect light."

Quote:
It seems to me from the literature i have read on temperament that the moon is given special consideration in helping to define temperament. what this might mean for a day chart is that the moons position is less important then medieval astrologers placed on it. greenbaums book seemed to focus mostly on medieval astrologers, excluding ptolemy who did put strong emphasis on the moon by phase, sign, aspect and ruler of the moon.

After we have a number of charts posted for at least two temperaments, let's look at the individual Moons. That could be very enlightening. I have a total of four melancholic charts and two sanguine from Greenbaum's book.

I must be off to the day's work, so will try to respond to the remainder of your post this evening.

Therese
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:


I believe the current wisdom is that our basic personalities remain the same throughout life. However, if spiritual methods are employed, one can adjust the natural tendencies somewhat.


Oh, I am basically melancholic with some modification!.......I can almost put the times I remember feeling happy in the palm of my hand.

In my opinion, a study of temperament is one of the best indications that the sidereal zodiac is perhaps the only valid zodiac for astrology. Yes, a strong statement!

Therese

hi theresa,

sometimes when i read the last post, i miss the post before it until i make a closer inspection as was the case here!

thanks for sharing your perspective on the possibility of temperament change.. that is my understanding too - it is fixed like stone and unchangeable.. perhaps there is some possibility of some change but it isn't suggested in literature i've read on temperament.

what temperament is very fixed about something being one way or the other and incapable of entertaining the idea it might be 2 different ways? is that melancholic? i think it is choleric before they have another discovery.

i have great difficulty thinking that either the sidereal or tropical is the only valid zodiac for astrology, which is why i ask this question of you!

my chart data is march 29 1956 1050pm toronto, canada..
most people get the impression i am sanguine based on my interaction with people - happy go lucky kind of person.. the fact of the matter is my wife has a much better read on me then others and so i have to go with a three way tie between choleric, melancholic and phlegmatic. maybe this means i am really more phlegmatic in wanting to think of myself this way! i am sure someone could figure it out, but bottom line - after reading greenbaums book, i was no further ahead!
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

accidentally i have stumbled onto page xxi in deb houldings book 'the houses - temples of the sky'.. she discusses the quadrants in connection with the temperaments. they go as follows - counter clockwise

1 ascendant to midheaven - sanguine,
2 midheaven to descendant - choleric,
3 descendant to i.c. - phlegmatic,
4 i.c. to ascendant - melancholic.

she also connects a season with each starting at spring and number 1.

it is interesting as i seem to recall the fall as melancholic while winter was phlegmatic in greenbaums book. i am going to have to look again!

using just this as a guideline according to the way houlding has given it here, ferns chart would be an emphasis on the choleric, while dereks chart has an emphasis of sanguine and phlegmatic.. in dereks chart the moon is in the melancholic quadrant which might explain a partial rationale for why the moon is considered more important.. if one accepts this idea then they have to discount the idea of sect and the importance of sect having much of any relevance to temperament given the fact both there sun position is in either sanguine(derek) or choleric(fern) quadrants.

interestingly both derek and fern have moon in the 'melancholic quadrant.. i have mine in the sanguine sector, lol..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
.....another feature of sect is how the sun works closely with jupiter and saturn - the other 2 planets of the day sect) while moon works closely with venus and mars the other 2 planets of the night sect.. mercury swings either way and is diurnal or nocturnal based on whether it rises before or after the sun - before is diurnal and after is nocturnal.

I would have to study that idea with more charts.

Quote:
dereks mars on the descendant is a planet opposite the chart sect, so one wonders how much this has impact on his temperament?

As it isn't one of the three primary Hellenistic considerations (as noted by Robert Schmidt), it may only affect 7th house affairs and perhaps 10th house affairs as the 10th lord is Saturn with Mars. But we don't know for sure, so this is speculation.

Quote:
ferns venus/moon opposition is brought together very closely via the ascendant axis and again these are the planets opposite the day sect.

Simply because they are angular (aspecting the ascendant), they will be important in her life, and the Moon is always important in the personal psychology. But the Moon in Fern's chart isn't part of Schmidt's three primary considerations. So I'd say go with those three (plus sign stelliums involving the Sun (day) or Moon (night).

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two more melancholic charts in Greenbaum's book, Daniel and Tess, and they are both nocturnal births. Data:

Daniel
June 7, 1980
3:37 am EDT (-4 hrs)
New Haven, CT
Asc: 20 Aries 55 Krishnamurti
(be sure to ignore the MC as it will be wrong)

Tess
October 8, 1986
2:07:30 EDT (-4 hrs)
New Haven, CT
Asc: 23 Cancer 45
(Ignore the MC)

In these charts we don't have the Gemini trigon emphasis, but we do have the ascendant lord conjunct Saturn.

(1) Domicile lord of the ascendant:
Daniel has Aries rising with Mars in Leo conjunct Saturn, and Tess has Cancer rising with the Moon in Scorpio (fall) between Saturn and Uranus (for moderns). Saturn, of course, has no dignity in a sign of Mars, especially in Leo, whose domicile lord is the Sun. So for the moment, the important consideration is the ascendant lord with Saturn.

(2) Domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune:
Daniel's lot of fortune is in Cancer, so disposited by the Moon in Pisces. Though Pisces has no relationship to melancholia as such, it's placed in the 12th sign without support from nearby planets. (No planets in Aquarius, Pisces or Aries.) This is an unfortunate Indian Yoga that seems accurate in my experience. A healthy Moon seems to need the support of other planets nearby. Daniel's Moon has no close major aspects from other planets. The one aspect, a 6 degree square, is from Mercury in Gemini--Saturn's trigon. As this is a dexter square, I personally would not give it much importance.

Tess' lot of fortune is in Taurus. The dispositor Venus is in Libra, sign of the Gemini trigon. Venus is actually quite strong as it is angular on cusp 4, so the only indication that it might have a Saturnian tone is its sign position. I suspect that Venus might be her way out of melancholia, although it receives the trine from Jupiter in Aquarius. Venus has no relief from aspects from a more cheerful trigon.

(3) Trigon lords of the sect light
Daniel's Moon is in Pisces, so the nocturnal trigon lord is Mars (also ascendant lord) applying to Saturn in Leo. Mars is also separating from Jupiter which is well placed in Leo. Venus as secondary lord is in Gemini in the third sign.
Tess' nocturnal Moon is in Scorpio, so Mars is her primary trigon lord. It's exalted in Capriocrn, but in the 6th house (7th sign).
Venus as secondary trigon lord is on the 4th cusp in Libra.

Neither of these charts has a significant stellium in Gemini's trigon of signs, though both charts have Venus and Mercury in those signs. (Daniel: Ve-Me in Gemini and Tess Ve-Me in Libra)

As these are both nocturnal charts, the Moon takes on greater significance than the Sun.

Tess' Moon as ascendant lord is in its fall with Saturn in a sign without dignity.

Daniel's Moon is extremely significant because no other planets are joining it above the horizon in his nocturnal chart. As the lesser light symbolizing the emotions and mental state, it stands alone in the 12th sign without support. In neither of these charts does the Sun seem to have as much significance as the Moon. (So James, that is a valuable suggestion on your part regarding diurnal and nocturnal charts. We need more research regarding sect.)

The primary sidereal melancholic signature for Daniel and Tess appears to be the ascendant lord with Saturn in an inimical sign. In these two cases the sidereal signs of the ascendant lord have nothing to do with melancholia. So another melancholic signature possibility is Saturn strongly configured with the ascendant lord or otherwise prominent in the chart, but not in a sign of dignity. In both charts the Moon seems to be the primary signature of a difficult psychology.

It's also a possibility that the 27 lunar mansions are more important for the Moon than signs of the zodiac as such. Whereas the Sun is always on the ecliptic, the Moon has latitutude, and it's possible that the mansions (background stars) tell us more about the nature of the Moon.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Schmidt's three primary considerations....
Therese


therese, you've mentioned this a few times.. please quickly summarize what these are to you. thanks!

i note both derek from earlier and daniel's chart immediately below have a mars/saturn conjunction squaring onto the sun in a dominant position - the overcoming square that was discussed on another thread previously.. it is an interesting consideration giving greater weight to saturn as i see it in these 2 charts and supportive of a more melancholic emphasis..


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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
what temperament is very fixed about something being one way or the other and incapable of entertaining the idea it might be 2 different ways? is that melancholic? i think it is choleric before they have another discovery.

In my experience this trait belongs to the Sun and the sidereal fixed or solid signs. Being fixed isn't melancholic because my family calls me "the embodiment of change!" The only fixed planet in my chart is Mercury, my 7th lord, and I married a man with Scorpio rising with the Moon and Jupiter. Talk about fixidity!!

I have a sister who has the Sun on a Pisces ascendant, the ascendant lord Jupiter in Leo. Very, very fixed, combining the Sun and Jupiter! But she will adjust to other people on the surface but underneath she is as solid as stone. With this Jupiter toned combination, she's been a nun since her late teenage years. (Jupiter-Sun mutual reception, Pisces and Leo)

Quote:
i have great difficulty thinking that either the sidereal or tropical is the only valid zodiac for astrology, which is why i ask this question of you!

You'll find many Fagan school astrologers very fixed in saying the tropical zodiac doesn't exist. I worked in the tropical zodiac for ten years, but now I believe there is no particular benefit to using that zodiac. BUT...the observations of tropical astrologers are both valid and valuable because they show us the nature of the underlying sidereal signs. So I have some affection for the so-called tropical zodiac. Much tropical sign theory is wrong, however.

However he three modes (solid or fixed, tropic or moveable and double-bodied) simply don't work in the tropical zodiac. This is my observation. If they worked, my chart is 90 percent fixed, and I'd be an unchanging rock. I have many examples of fixidity working only in the sidereal zodiac.

Thanks for your chart data, James. I'll be checking it out. Are you living in Canada now?

Therese
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,
i live on vancouver island and have lived on the westcoast most of my life.
thanks for your additional notes and viewpoint on all this.. i can tell you my impression is that you are quite fixed, but obviously it is a superficial read based on only the internet interaction i have had with you.. you may not recall, but i remember having some conversations with you at the astrodatabank forum many years ago!!
cheers james
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote (from Deb's book):

1 ascendant to midheaven - sanguine,
2 midheaven to descendant - choleric,
3 descendant to i.c. - phlegmatic,
4 i.c. to ascendant - melancholic

I don't tend to accept this quadrant arrangement. I have no planets between the IC and ascendant. Everything brackets the MC, and I'm neither choleric nor sanguine. There may be something to planets being above or below the horizon in relation to being objective or subjective, however. That is a tropical idea.

Therese
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, yes, I will come across as fixed on astrological forums. My Mercury is in Scorpio in mutual reception with Mars. And I do have fixed astrological opinions after more than 40 years working with astrology. But in living situations I'm flexible and frequently change my mind. If you are a "James" from ADB, then I remember you and somewhere I have your birth chart! I don't remember details, but I have vague memories of conversations.

Therese
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
There may be something to planets being above or below the horizon in relation to being objective or subjective, however. That is a tropical idea.
Therese


i am curious to know why you think this has to be described as a 'tropical' idea? there is no mention of any zodiac.. i've heard this idea expressed many times before and tend to agree with it.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
am curious to know why you think this has to be described as a 'tropical' idea? there is no mention of any zodiac.. i've heard this idea expressed many times before and tend to agree with it.

I mean this idea developed among tropical astrologers sometime since the time of Leo and Carter.

Nice to be in touch again, James!

Therese
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
James, yes, I will come across as fixed on astrological forums. My Mercury is in Scorpio in mutual reception with Mars. And I do have fixed astrological opinions after more than 40 years working with astrology. But in living situations I'm flexible and frequently change my mind. If you are a "James" from ADB, then I remember you and somewhere I have your birth chart! I don't remember details, but I have vague memories of conversations.

Therese


Sidereal of course ?
Would that be Mercury in Tropical sagittarius and Mars in Libra or cancer ?

PD
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
Therese Hamilton wrote:
James, yes, I will come across as fixed on astrological forums. My Mercury is in Scorpio in mutual reception with Mars. And I do have fixed astrological opinions after more than 40 years working with astrology.Therese


Sidereal of course ?
Would that be Mercury in Tropical sagittarius and Mars in Libra or cancer ?

PD


Yes, those are sidereal positions. In the tropical zodiac Mercury is about 27 Scorpio, but Mars is in Libra, so no mutual reception there, and no aspect between Mercury and Mars.

My tendency to change shows in the many astrological systems I've transited through over the years: Tropical first, followed by the Fagan western system, then to India's various systems, then to Hellenistic, and now I'm studying Ben Dykes Medieval translations, but keeping it all in the sidereal.

When I read charts, I tend to take concepts from different systems, but now always in the sidereal zodiac. When I see sidereal Aries, for example, I'll still automatically think "tropical Taurus traits." I'll use India's Vimshottari dasa system, but western orbs and transits. I don't use India's whole sign houses or aspects from sign to sign. And so forth. Over the years I've found that each system has something superior to offer, so I put it all together now in my elder years.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, you asked about Robert Schmidt's three primary considerations in reading a chart. Here is his note from the ACT forum:

-----------Begin quote-------------

In several Hellenistic texts, three planets are singled out for special importance in a delineation of the chart.

These are the domicile lord of the Ascendant
The domicile lord of the Lot of Fortune
And the trigon lord(s) of the sect light.

These three planets are so important that they are often collectively called "the planets having a relation to the nativity." this implies that the trigon lord of the sect light (and possibly of other planets) represents a mode of rulership for planets analogous to that of the planetary rulership of a topical place (house).

--------------End Quote-------------

We also know from Robert Schmidt that the planet exalted in a sign was often considered to be a co-ruler of the sign. Certainly the characteristics of an exalted planet show up in the (sidereal) sign itself as do traits of the trigon lords. From that quote it looks like I should have been using only one trigon lord for the temperament charts instead of two, depending on whether the chart is nocturnal or diurnal.
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