skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Octoscope giving promising statistical results
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1213
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dragonqueen wrote:
http://www.nvwoa.nl/pdfart/ruis/ruisen.pdf

Interesting article on killers.I checked ADB,but couldnt find a clear link betwen Scorpio,Aries and murders,but I only had time to check a few

Papretis was using the sidereal zodiac, but the article in the link you posted is one fine research piece, which very few astrologers can even begin to emulate.

Persoanlly, I see little similarity between sidereal Aries and Scorpio. (Ecliptic area of tropical Taurus and Sagittarius)

Therese
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Phil



Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 51

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spock, Mark, and anyone else,

Schmidt has noted that in Valens, whole sign houses are used with two exceptions. One is the calculation of planetary strength, in which Valens describes an eightfold division, which he himself postulates could be twelvefold (Anthologies III, 2). I’ve often seen this referred to as a harbinger of the Porphyry house system. But it’s always nagged at me -- I’ve always wondered why we think of this as a house system as opposed to just calling it “areas of strength” and leaving it at that.

Spock’s interesting point about the areas of Gauquelin not being indicative of a house system certainly brings this idea to my mind. Valens’ description does meet Spock’s “house criteria” in that there are literally 8 or 12 such sectors. But it doesn’t describe 12 different effects, just gradations of strength (either binary strong/weak or strong/middle/weak). This would go against it being considered a house system. You get the idea.

I’m very curious as to people’s thoughts here. It’s fascinating to me to hear my own poorly worked out thoughts articulated so well by Spock, in a totally different setting.

Thanks,

Phil

PS- Sorry if this question is either inane or shouldn’t be on this thread due to being off topic. I had to ask.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spock



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 51
Location: Evansville, Indiana

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Spock, Mark, and anyone else,

Schmidt has noted that in Valens, whole sign houses are used with two exceptions. One is the calculation of planetary strength, in which Valens describes an eightfold division, which he himself postulates could be twelvefold (Anthologies III, 2). I’ve often seen this referred to as a harbinger of the Porphyry house system. But it’s always nagged at me -- I’ve always wondered why we think of this as a house system as opposed to just calling it “areas of strength” and leaving it at that.

I did some googling, found a link on Chris Brennan's Hellenistic Astrology Website to a pdf of Mark Riley's translation of Valens' Anthologies, and downloaded it. The twelve 'places' (sign-houses, evidently) he describes in Book ll are associated with twelve different sets of effects. In each 'place' he refers to the specific effects of benefics and malefics, of particular planets in that 'place' or ruling it, and other not always clear (from my brief reading) combinations. For instance, for Vl: " If Jupiter [in this place?] rules the Lot or the Ascendant, the native will lose his property in civil suits." Clearly he's speaking of twelve interpretive boxes. In Book lll, section 2, the part you referred to, he first states that, measuring from angle to angle, the first third of each quadrant is 'operative', and 'stars' in this area, whether benefics or malefics, are powerful, with the remaining two-thirds 'inoperative' and impropitious. He then states, "Now to me the following method seems more scientific," and divides each quadrant into thirds, with the first third being 'operative and powerful', the second 'average', and the third 'crisis-producing and bad'. Interestingly, in Book l, in the section on calculating "the houseruler of the year', he similarly gives a standard or accepted method, then follows with "To me it seems more scientific", and describes a different one. Valens was evidently a 'modern' astrologer willing to supersede handed-down methods with what he felt were better ones. He contrasts his 'more scientific' way with the practices of 'the old astrologers'.
Quote:
Spock’s interesting point about the areas of Gauquelin not being indicative of a house system certainly brings this idea to my mind. Valens’ description does meet Spock’s “house criteria” in that there are literally 8 or 12 such sectors. But it doesn’t describe 12 different effects, just gradations of strength (either binary strong/weak or strong/middle/weak). This would go against it being considered a house system.

The 'gradations of strength' described in the 'more scientific' version in Anthologies lll, 2 aren't consistently that. In his tripartite division from the Asc to the IC (and its opposite) the first is operative and powerful, the second average, 'neither completely good or bad', and the third 'crisis-producing and bad'. But with reference to the other two opposed quadrants the third section is 'afflictiing and inoperative'. This resolves the apparent inconsistency. Valens apparently conflates strength and activity, on one hand, and lack of strength and activity on the other with, respectively, goodness and badness.

It is not, however, an aspect system, but an overlay over the house system, much as we see angular, succedent and cadent houses as a continuum from strong to weak. An added complication, and in this Valens really is inconsistent, is that the twelve different interpretive boxes known as places, now known as houses, are assuming Schmidt is correct a reordering of signs starting with the one containing the Asc, that is, sign-houses, whereas his tripartite strength/goodness overlay is a quadrant division. Perhaps what we're seeing here is a snapshot of an historical transition, the merging of two distinct but related systems into the modern quadrant systems which are both twelve different effects and, within each quadrant, angular/succedent/cadent or strong/average/weak.

That's history, of course, interesting as, as close as we can ascertain it, 'the truth' about what our predecessors believed but not necessarily 'the truth' per se about reality. The Gauquelin study, which does represent in my opinion an advance in our understanding of astrological effects, being a test of some of Leon Lasson's house interpretations divided the diurnal circle into discrete sections that made the results superficially look like houses, but actually shows aspect effects which, like Mars hard-angle Saturn for instance, describes a single effect or set of effects that's present when the two planets are within orb of aspect, and absent when they aren't.
_________________
Article: After Symbolism
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2901
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't want to take the thread in a different direction but there are different types of strengths astrologically, and they are not all based on the 'places' or 'house' systems.. my understanding is that the angles are the most powerful place for a planet to be in terms of expressing itself - sort of like the sun at sunrise.. the idea that a planet above the horizon in the area most astrologers now refer to as the "12th house" (or cadent) would automatically turn into chop suey and be no good for anything strikes me as out of sync.. this is one other reason i like the logic of whole sign houses, but regardless of that, i still think a planet ''in the angles'' can be meant to imply a planet that is on either side of the horizon, or midheaven line for it to qualify.. i believe having some synergy with the 'sign' on that line by sharing in the sign does help...

another obvious type of strength has to do with planetary phase which is a longer conversation but might have some connection to the 8 division system that some folks are trying to fathom.. the other way that i associate strength is also thru planets in aspect to one another. it is a type of overlapping of ideas, but a planet in a 10th house type position - upper square - to another planet does seem to have a dominating influence over the planet that is part of the lower part of the square. talking aspects however does seem to be getting off topic to the idea of the 8 house system that is the focus of the thread though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Page 4 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated