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Sidereal Sign/Mansion Research: Leo through Scorpio
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:
First off I do find it hard to imagine that humanity only learnt intuition once someone discovered Uranus. Hallucinogens have been used since time immemorial but according to modern astrology they were only invented since the discovery of Neptune.
It takes a great leap of imagination to believe that a zodiac chart is reality. You need to imagine imaginary lines in the sky dividing arbitrary twelfth divisions and then decide where the house divisions lie except that nobody can. To say that judgements based on these criteria are logical is absurd.
Whether this delusion is caused by the moon or Neptune I do not know.


Mjacob

I wonder what modern astrologers ever attested that hallucinogens "were only invented since the discovery of Neptune" or "humanity only learnt intuition once someone discovered Uranus".

Modern astrology tends to link intuition with Uranus, and Neptune with hallucinogenics, but I do not think the claim is widely made that such things ceased to exist before we discovered the outer planets. Similarly many modern astrologers link Pluto to death, but nobody ever said death is only a recent feature of the 20th century.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
RodJM wrote
Quote:
Paying attention to accepted definitions would be first step towards hauling it into academia.

Do you think that would good for astrology? Or not? I expect that very debate to eventually surface within astrology. Do astrologers want astrology to eventually be a respected topic of study? Or would they be happy to let it continue to be "to each his own?"


Respected by who I wonder?

For me, I don't really care what other people think of astrology, provided I continue to be free to study it myself. The only thing I think of is that if it was more widely popular we'd have more access to discussions and translations and more people working on those and more discussions generated and ultimately more opportunities for learning. Outside of that, I don't really mind or care what people think of astrology, whether they respect it or not. I'm not sure why I would either.

From your context I presume you mean academically respected. Well ultimately I do not think academic acceptance accounts for a great deal. There are many forms of expression or bodies of knowledge that academia have little to say on or express cynicism for. I am fundamentally against the notion that is so often prevalent in society that academic pursuits have something more worthy or more 'true'. I am taking academic here to mean acknowledged by major universities as a worthy pursuit of study.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said paul re the respect issue.. i often compare astrology with music. do i care if people 'respect' music? i could care less, lol.. when i go to see metalica, or pavorati or whoever performing, am i concerned if they don't have a degree pasted on the backstage showing their cred? lol - it is about the music, or in this case astrology folks!
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Mjacob



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="PaulI wonder what modern astrologers ever attested that hallucinogens "were only invented since the discovery of Neptune" or "humanity only learnt intuition once someone discovered Uranus".

[quote]

Perhaps you are taking this too literally. Someone must have first stated that Neptune had something to do with drugs after the discovery of Neptune. You are taking a single quote out of context. I was responding to this from Therese Hamilton on the 6th May

Quote:
Intuition isn't a concept found in ancient texts. It's a modern concept, and most likely belongs to Uranus or Neptune or both. That is exactly where Rex Bill's The Rulership Book places intuition: "Uranus, Neptune, 9th house."


I was perhaps sending this up a little but it does seem to suggest that modern astrologers believe that things only exist after the modern planet is discovered that symbolises them

In the interests of balance I also replied to Therese on the subject of Gauquelin by criticising Traditional practice

Regards
MJ
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Mjacob



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:





Similarly many modern astrologers link Pluto to death, but nobody ever said death is only a recent feature of the 20th century.
somebody changed the meaning of the eighth house from death to transformation didn't they? Seems like death no longer exists at all
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:

I was perhaps sending this up a little but it does seem to suggest that modern astrologers believe that things only exist after the modern planet is discovered that symbolises them


Okay, I don't want to make a big deal out of it either. I just get a little uncomfortable when we take pot shots at other forms of astrology. One thing I notice is that traditionally inclined astrologers really do not like when modern astrologers misrepresent their views, and I think it's important that we don't misrepresent the modern view either.
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Mjacob



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Modern Reply with quote

Fair enough but I was responding to a particular post before I made a general point. I do find though that modern astrologers sing from the same hymn sheet and often repeat the same dogmas and doctrines almost word for word over the decades. If I have ever been offended it is by ad hominen attacks rather than than me as a spokesman of traditional astrology which nobody has said I am
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that traditional astrology didn't recognize intuition as such doesn't mean that intuition didn't exist before modern times. It means that as a process intuition was not mentioned in the old teachings or texts. Rather, attention was paid to the outer world that was easily observed and understood. That's why astrology tended to deal with the prediction of events.

It's only since the birth of modern psychology that unconscious or super-conscious mental processes have been recognized and discussed. We can say that as these realms of consciousness became recognized for what they are, concurrently we had the discovery of the trans-Saturnian planets. Astrologers (correctly, I believe) have placed unconscious and super-conscious processes under Uranus and Neptune.
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese wrote:
Quote:
Astrologers (correctly, I believe) have placed unconscious and super-conscious processes under Uranus and Neptune.


What about Pluto and hypothetical further planets?
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
RodJM wrote:
Paying attention to accepted definitions would be first step towards hauling it into academia.

Therese replied:
Do you think that would good for astrology? Or not? I expect that very debate to eventually surface within astrology. Do astrologers want astrology to eventually be a respected topic of study? Or would they be happy to let it continue to be "to each his own?"

Paul asked:
Respected by who I wonder?

I meant "respect" in a general sense. From my point of view, it would be very helpful for astrology if a person who wanted to become a professional counselor, for example, could have the option of adding astrological courses to their studies and get credit for them. At this time many members of the public still place astrology in the realm of fortune telling or the daily Sun sign column.

It would be nice if the public could say, "Oh, he's studying astrology to help with his understanding of....( marketing, or business or counseling or whatever....") If astrology had some educational standards, it would eliminate those who really don't know much about astrology, but set themselves up as astrologers anyway. That pulls the entire subject of astrology down and turns it into superstition or entertainment.

I do care greatly about astrology as a subject, even a Cosmic Science. Thus, I don't like it remaining in the realm of entertainment. Respect?? I was thinking of general respect among astrologers and the public. The advantage of academic respect is that there would be grant money for studies (not necessarily statistical) that would benefit astrology in general. Yes, this would mean standards that would have to be met, but even now astrology schools have fairly high study standards before certificates are given.

It's probably true that astrologers who would like to see professional standards have degrees or certificates themselves, and those who want to bypass standards and formal education haven't earned those certificates or degrees. So it comes down to personal experience, which of course influences attitudes. Yes, I value education, but shouldn't be criticized for that view.

Quote:
Paul wrote:
For me, I don't really care what other people think of astrology, provided I continue to be free to study it myself. The only thing I think of is that if it was more widely popular we'd have more access to discussions and translations and more people working on those and more discussions generated and ultimately more opportunities for learning.

We need a lot more than discussion. We need research and working together to discover which facets of astrology are truly helpful, and which can be safely discarded as having no value. This is what education and research are all about. Academics build on each other's work, and knowledge increases for everyone in the field.

As astrology is today, each astrologer is an isolated unit following his or her own path. The result is a standstill for astrology. Or the endless bickering which often appears on forums. Not, "Oh, that's interesting. I'll look into that idea further to see if it's valid." No, more likely an opposing argument is presented, usually without supporting data. That is not an academic approach to learning.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:12 am    Post subject: EDGAR CAYCE ON PLUTO Reply with quote

Cyril Fagan and his associates had some interesting views on Pluto which I'll post on the "Notes from Cyril Fagan" topic. In the meantime:

EDGAR CAYCE ON PLUTO:

14. (Q) Just what are the effects of Pluto, in conjunction with one's ascendant?

(A) This as we find is entirely amiss from what we might call a physical expression, - but, as we find indicated, these are a development that is occurring in the universe, or environs about the earth - Pluto. Not as some have indicated, that it is gradually being dissipated. It is gradually GROWING, and thus is one of those influences that are to be as a demonstrative activity in the future affairs or developments of man towards the spiritual-minded influences, or those influences outside of himself.

These in the present, as might be said, are merely the becoming AWARE of same. Rather within the next hundred to two hundred years there may be a great deal of influence upon the ascendancy of man; for it's closest of those to the activities of the earth, to be sure, and is a DEVELOPING influence, and not one already established.
(Edgar Cayce Reading 1100-27, 2 December, 1939)
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Thu May 08, 2014 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 1:19 am    Post subject: EDGAR CAYCE ON PLUTO Reply with quote

Thank you, Therese

One thing we do have in common is an interest in Edgar Cayce! Smile

Michael
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: EDGAR CAYCE ON PLUTO Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Thank you, Therese

One thing we do have in common is an interest in Edgar Cayce! Smile

I've been a student of the Cayce readings since the 1970s....have all the books on Cayce's astrology and the CD with all the readings. But I'm not happy with the current direction of his organization, the A.R.E.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun May 11, 2014 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RodJM



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Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I do care greatly about astrology as a subject, even a Cosmic Science. Thus, I don't like it remaining in the realm of entertainment. Respect?? I was thinking of general respect among astrologers and the public. The advantage of academic respect is that there would be grant money for studies (not necessarily statistical) that would benefit astrology in general. Yes, this would mean standards that would have to be met, but even now astrology schools have fairly high study standards before certificates are given.


To say Astrology needs a good injection of academic research is a bit like saying how valuable water is to someone dying of thirst in the desert! In other words - Bring it on!

Therese Hamilton wrote:

We need a lot more than discussion. We need research and working together to discover which facets of astrology are truly helpful, and which can be safely discarded as having no value. This is what education and research are all about. Academics build on each other's work, and knowledge increases for everyone in the field.


Once again, well said Therese! IF only that message could get through some stubborn heads... or are they afraid the great delusion of "believing what other astrologers say" because its been around for thousands of years therefore it MUST be true...without proper educated research such as "academia" entails, the cycle of self delusion will continue..

Therese Hamilton wrote:

As astrology is today, each astrologer is an isolated unit following his or her own path. The result is a standstill for astrology. Or the endless bickering which often appears on forums. Not, "Oh, that's interesting. I'll look into that idea further to see if it's valid." No, more likely an opposing argument is presented, usually without supporting data. That is not an academic approach to learning.


Yep, just have a look around the internet or any other public discussion platform, the proof is in the pudding. I think some astrologers actually enjoy bickering and arguing without proper academic research to support claims. If only for one's "Pride"...
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for your reply, Rod! I'm happy that at least one person understood the point I was trying to make. Sadly, it does seem that some members on astrological forums are there only because they seem to enjoy arguing or having a say, even if that say adds nothing to the conversation. Most of the astrological forums I've participated in over the years have disappeared. Skyscript is one of the few remaining.

Therese
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