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Phew! "First horary" success
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:12 am    Post subject: Phew! "First horary" success Reply with quote

I'm pleased to report that the first "serious" horary I did for someone else turned out to be accurate.

A colleague of mine (a criminal lawyer) asked: "Will I get a defended hearing in the next 3 months?" (This would be called a magistrates trial in the UK, I think - the hearing of a relatively minor criminal matter before a judge sitting alone, not a jury). Not many cases get to this point because they resolve in some way (eg no defence; change of plea; charge withdrawn etc). It's actually quite hard to get one.

He is still quite young and is wanting to advance in his career by moving up legal-aid categories. He desperately needs another defended hearing on his "CV" (it's actually a pretty stupid system but I won't go into that here).

Data for question: Auckland, New Zealand, 31 December 2004, 10:44 am, NZST.

First issue was to decide which House rules defended hearings in general, and figured that would have to be the 7th (I think this site gives one meaning of the 7th as "the accused on trial.")

Ruler of the 7th, Mercury, although in detriment, is placed in the quesitor's 10th House of career, which I took to be a good sign. Moreover, in legal charts, the 10th house rules courts: so literally, Mercury in the 10th here could be viewed as "the defendant placed before the court"!! Thought that was some nice clear astrological language in the chart.

Pisces is rising, so the quesitor's significator is Jupiter (kind of appropriate for a lawyer)!! Jupiter is placed in the 8th House; I took this to mean that he was in a weak position in terms of the outcome - there was little he could do to influence the situation; perhaps a case would be passed on to him by another lawyer.

But more importantly, Jupiter is almost EXACTLY sextile Mercury in the 10th!! And another meaning of the 8th House in a legal chart is "friends and assistants of the defendant or accused". So here we have, literally, the perfect symbol of the criminal defence lawyer: Jupiter in the 8th - sextile (in harmony with or connection with) the defendant (Mercury in the 10th).!!

I'm a beginner at this and there are a whole heap of technical rules I'm still learning but I found myself saying YES to his question - I didn't hedge, couch or equivocate.

Last week he told me he had just been handed a case by another barrister, who is too sick to do it himself. The case will almost certainly go to a defended hearing: the defendant is adamant she wants to defend the charge, she has a good defence, yet the case is technical enough so that the police probably won't concede and withdraw the charge...so he's very happy!

Main thanks must go to this site however Very Happy Otherwise I would not have been able to intepret all those house meanings!!
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foreteller



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 30

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good start kurgal.
I am running my business (and other aspects of) life by the horary for the last 30 years. you can trust horary to work... you may ask where/when ever you are ready if you can trust my horary predictions about this inside tip:

as good as gold...


always be lucky Very Happy
-----------------------------

edited: the answer is yes, in 3 years, and I posted it in a new topic now.
sorry for not answering earlier...

foreteller
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Last edited by foreteller on Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well horary seems to be great for precise answers to precise questions. ordinary natal and predictive astrology just isn't specific or detailed enough.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"FortuneTeller"

About the links to web sites that you spice your messages with: I think you are skimming very close to that line between pointing to tangential web sites and outright spammng and scamming.

What's next? The old one about how there's this woman in Africa who wants to give me $10,000,000 if only I give her $10,000 first? Puh-lease.
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Mark F


Last edited by MarkF on Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree so I've removed the links. The intention might have been well meaning but there shouldn't be any links in the forum to sites that are not astrological in content or directly related to the discussion in hand.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further to what I said above, the problem with natal astrology is often the lack of information. Someone might come to me with a career question, but if nothing is going on in the 10th House, or with the ruler of the 10th, I can't do much. Saturn might be squaring Venus in the 7th, so I know it's a bad time for relationships, but that won't help me with the career question......
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read Lilly's CA, book three. He has a lot to say about the 10th house, in particular about the Sun.

He also says to look to see if either Mercury (mind), Venus (the arts) or Mars (labor) is in it's own dignity in either the 1st, 7th or 10th houses. If any of them are strong that shows an apptitude for that kind of work.

Lilly has pages and pages about careers, and our success at them, much beyond whether there are any planets in the 10th house.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF wrote:
Read Lilly's CA, book three. He has a lot to say about the 10th house, in particular about the Sun.

He also says to look to see if either Mercury (mind), Venus (the arts) or Mars (labor) is in it's own dignity in either the 1st, 7th or 10th houses. If any of them are strong that shows an apptitude for that kind of work.

Lilly has pages and pages about careers, and our success at them, much beyond whether there are any planets in the 10th house.



This is interesting. It's probably high time I read some Lilly!

When I said "nothing going on in the 10th" I meant by way of transit. Unless you are saying that a transit to Mars might bear on career issues, even if Mars is not in the 10th or ruling the 10th? Hmm must say I would not have thought of that.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About you first horary chart, I guess I am not so sure about the significators that you mentioned. You got the right answer, so who am I to argue? But I just dont see this as a lawsuit chart. It sounds more like a work chart. In essence this is no different from someone who works in any office asking if they will get a plum assignment. If your friend were suing someone, they would be shown by the 7th house. The key word of the 7th house is the other. That could mean a rival, or an enemy in court. For your friend, court is a place of work, so Id look at this as a 10th house question. Once he got the case and asked if he would win, then it would become a court question. But his original question was more about his career.

Oh. I dont know. Im not sure at all. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Ive never done legal charts, so I have a lot of questions about them. If a defense lawyer in a criminal case asks Will I Win This Case?, which house would we use to represent the case? Which house would the prosecuting attorneys be shown by? The 9th? The judge and the verdict would be the 10th house. Thats pretty clear. Where would the lawyers client, the defendant be? Id guess that they would be the 7th? Help!
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well the reason why i used the 7th house ruler as significator was because it was a very specific question about getting a DEFENDED hearing. he didnt want to know if he was getting another sentencing, or some other type of case. He only wanted to know if he would get a case that would end up as a defended trial. Surely the 7th house must rule defended matters? This site mentions lawsuits, defendants, and the accused on trial.

If i had only looked at the 10th house and the significator of the 10th, I don't think that would be specific enough to the question.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I might be wrong about this. The 10th House is pretty packed here so any astrologer could see this was a career question. Mars is on the MC, which I interpreted as his ambition, but that by itself doesnt mean his ambition will be satisified.

Maybe I was wrong to use the 7th like this. Hmm. If i'd used the 10th, then Jupiter would be both the significator of the querent AND the quesited. And I might have got a differnt answer...I woould have to follow through that analysis.....Help! could someone help shed some light on this?
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know. I can't see how to use that 8th house Jupiter, which is your friend the lawyer.

Whatever way we look at it, both the lawyer and his career 10th house is really strong. But.there is both this super-tight aspect and mutual reception by sign between him and Venus - 8th house ruler. Something is amiss here.

At this point I'd say that what this means is even though his career is going great and he gets what he wants, that somehow this will not be so good for him. At some point we have to accept what the chart says, let it speak for itself and not try to force what we think is the case onto it.

One of the first charts I ever did was to ask whether I would get this tour assignment of going to Scotland. My significator and my 10th house ruler were both in the 9th house, so it screamed at me that I was going on an overseas trip. But the 9th house ruler was in the 8th house. And my planet was facing down an applying opposition with the Moon. The 8th house ruler was in the 9th house, Saturn was in the 8th house. There were LOTS of signs pointing to difficulties with this trip. I remember asking on here, "Does that mean I'm going to die on the trip?" And someone answered that, "Well, it was a simple yes/no question, so don't make anything if it. You got your main answer which was about whether you'd get the trip."

Despite first really wanting the work and needing the money, about a week before the trip I started to get really, really depressed about going. I didn't want to be gone the rest of the summer and miss all kinds of good times with someone I was seeing. On the way to the airport, my head was on my knees and I was saying, "I don't want to go, I don't want to go." It was kind of funny really.

Once I got over there, I found that the people I was working with were a snotty bunch of kids who pretty much slammed the door in my face from he moment I got there. I fell into a pretty bad depression but decided to just do my work and ignore the social element. Still when I look back, I haven't ever been that depressed on a job. I asked my bosses over there if I was doing an OK job and both assured me yes. A few weeks after I got home, I got a call from the tour company and they presented me with all kinds of untrue accusations about the job, the worse being that I refused to leave the hotel room and they got charged for it. There was a lot more but it seems my co-workers had totally blackballed me. The tour company refused to work with me again.

When I looked back at the chart recently I could see even more. Like I said, my planet was in the 9th, opposed by the Moon in the 3rd. But the 3rd house also had Mars, Uranus and Neptune. So there was this whole 3rd-9th opposition. Now I can see that my co-workers (3rd) would be set against me.

My point about this chart is that at my first look at it I only clearly saw the obvious signs that I'd get the assignment. I forgot to consider that the whole trip might not be what I expected or needed.

Right now, if I had to make a guess, Id say a similar thing is at work here. The part of fortune is also in the 8th house, which further emphasizes this theme that something bad will come out of this. The next aspect the Moon will make is that it will be sextile the South Node which is in the 9th house law. (Of course it also makes a trine with the North Node too)

Uranus is also on the cusp of the ASC shocks to the system, separation, unexpected events and it is square that powerful Mars on the MC. The only house that Mars rules is the 2nd house his finances, self-esteem. Scorpio, the other sign that Mars rules is intercepted in the 9th house too.

So you have quite a few really bad signs here his planet in the 8th along with POF, a very angular Mars square the ASC and Uranus. Im not so sure about the specifics, but it does look like theres trouble ahead. This is a real mixed bag. Id go out on a limb and tell him to watch out, that a surprise is in the offing and that it could cost him some money and provide some anxiety for him.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I know. I can't see how to use that 8th house Jupiter, which is your friend the lawyer."

Except to say that one meaning of the 8th in legal charts is "friends or assistants of the defendant."


"At this point I'd say that what this means is even though his career is going great and he gets what he wants, that somehow this will not be so good for him. At some point we have to accept what the chart says, let it speak for itself and not try to force what we think is the case onto it."

That's an excellent point and I think youre right. I did brush over some difficult aspects of the chart in my original post. My feeling about the case, now that he's got it, is not so good...

I like the example you gave of your job overseas. The highlighted 8th House perhaps signified the depression and "blackness" of the experience?

"So you have quite a few really bad signs here his planet in the 8th along with POF, a very angular Mars square the ASC and Uranus. Im not so sure about the specifics, but it does look like theres trouble ahead. This is a real mixed bag. Id go out on a limb and tell him to watch out, that a surprise is in the offing and that it could cost him some money and provide some anxiety for him."

Yeah I know! That afflicted Mars on the Midheaven (squaring Uranus) doesnt look good. Bit hard to miss really. It could mean sudden reversals for him, I think.

As always, I'll keep you posted on developments Very Happy
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking aloud here a bit, but going back to the question about which house to use as signifier.....I wonder if say you were a photographer and you wanted to know if you would get a wedding, you would look at significator of the 7th or the 5th? and see if that linked to either the 1st or 10th House ruler? I'm not sure if that's a valid approach or not.....perhaps I got the right answer the wrong way with this chart....it's just occurred to me that Mars could be seen as a general ruler of "defended matters"...and a trial is a type of battle really! So Mars (trial) at the Midheaven might have been telling me the answer very simply here.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of court matters, I'll just plead ignorance about this chart.

I have never done or seen a court chart, so I just don't know if that 8th house Jupiter is seen as a radical 8th house = bad thing, or if it's a turned 2nd-from-the-defendent's-house = resources thing.

One thing I am sure of is that it doesn't mean that he's got some great, "dark and mysterious"" 8th house sex headed his way.

I'm really stuck with this chart. Other than that aspect to the north node, there are no upcoming aspects. No aspects usually mean nothing happens. But somethind did happen, his friend passed him the case. Sure the Sun in the 11th might point to that. But the other apects in this chart have already happened. You sure picked a tough one to start out with.
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