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Phew! "First horary" success
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it seems the moon is void-of-course, which makes me wonder now why I was so confident with my interpretation! Very Happy I suppose I saw the trine to the North Node as an up-coming aspect, but it's not a planet, just a "point" so perhaps the chart is not radical or even fit to judge.

Perhaps i got a bit carried away because I saw all those planets in the 10th House
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF wrote:
I'm really stuck with this chart. Other than that aspect to the north node, there are no upcoming aspects. No aspects usually mean nothing happens. But somethind did happen, his friend passed him the case. Sure the Sun in the 11th might point to that. But the other apects in this chart have already happened. You sure picked a tough one to start out with.


This is something I remember grappling with at the time. The Mercury/Jupiter aspect was separating by ONE MINUTE! So that raised a difficult issue of interpretation. I dealt with it by saying I thought the case would arise from a matter that was literally "under his nose" at the time of asking the question. I quizzed him about his current contacts and asked him if he was SURE there wasn't a case literally staring at him, but he just said no, I dont think so.


Last edited by kurgal on Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF: "Speaking of court matters, I'll just plead ignorance about this chart.

I have never done or seen a court chart, so I just don't know if that 8th house Jupiter is seen as a radical 8th house = bad thing, or if it's a turned 2nd-from-the-defendent's-house = resources thing."


No Mark i reckon you'd be quite capable of interpreting this chart.! Very Happy

It's not a "legal" chart in the strict sense. That term is normally used to describe charts drawn up to answer particular legal questions, such as "what will be the outcome of the case." And you would normally use an "event chart;" you would simply cast the chart for the time at which the court case began. (Although I guess horary would be suitable for other legal questions).

As you pointed out earlier, this should really be seen as a "career" chart. It was really a "work" question more than a "law" question. But I used some of the interpretations of Houses used in legal charts, as I felt these were relevant here and ought to work.

Going back to first principles: the querent, the lawyer, is obviously represented by the First House. So what does the 7th mean here?

(Normally, in a true "legal" chart, 7th would be the "opposing party" i.e. if First House was the plaintiff, the 7th House would be the defendant; and vice versa).

But here I would tend to interpret the 7th as the client (or prospective client) of the lawyer - i.e. the defendant (or future defendant). So perhaps I was right after all to use the ruler of the 7th (Mercury) as the defendant.(But I was wrong, arguably, to give "defended hearings" and "trials" generically to the 7th).

And Jupiter is the lawyer, posited in the 8th, which as you point out is not such a pretty position. But in legal charts, 8th can mean assistants of the defendant. Perhaps I am wrong to borrow this interpretation here; but it kind of makes sense when you turn the chart. Because then the lawyer (Jupiter) is in the 2nd to the 7th i.e. the lawyer is part of the "resources" of the defendant/client - something upon which he/she can call for help
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foreteller



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 30

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guys
I am sorry I cause you so much fear and stress with my link. Smile
I know what you feel. it's ok.

regarding the chart, the void of course is always in power.
meaning: nothing you wish for will happen.

Happy Val day and night. Leery Thumbs up Surprised
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should we count an aspect of the Moon to the Nodes or to the Part of Fortune when determining if the Moon is void of course?

Does anyone here have any views on that??
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foreteller



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 30

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aspects of the Moon to the Nodes are the most important part of horary.
also if the moon is exactly on same degree number as the Nodes it means that fate is strong here and we should be very careful.

moon about to aspect a Part of Fortune is still void of course. I figure it out
after watching 1000's horary charts for sport predictions where you see the result in real time.

once I asked something personal and I hate to find that the moon is void of course. that's why I added many bodies and part to the chart to cancle the void.

did not help. it was stuill VOC. Sick
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well in that case, the moon wasn't void in this chart, because it was approaching a trine to the North Node
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foreteller



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually, I didn't look at the chart before.
I just read what you folks wrote about it. I am creating a new post, analizing your chart my way. it will be called: kurgal' question
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foreteller



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF wrote:
"FortuneTeller"

About the links to web sites that you spice your messages with: I think you are skimming very close to that line between pointing to tangential web sites and outright spammng and scamming.

What's next? The old one about how there's this woman in Africa who wants to give me $10,000,000 if only I give her $10,000 first? Puh-lease.


A. it's not FortuneTeller. it's foreteller.
B. you think about outright spammng and scamming. not me. it's your fears and your ego. you can overcome it by asking horary if your fearful Ego
is correct. the ancient art of horary astrology answers all.
C. What's next? Just stop being Mr. Knows all, and you'll stop confuse great business deals with shamed nigerian scams.


Fears are what stop us of growing. think about it.
If you doubt what I offered, kindly make sure and provide documentation on each answer before we will pay attentions to your fears.

with all the respect

foreteller
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kurgal,

I’ve only had time for a quick look at the chart and the comments in this thread I’m afraid, but I think that what you’ve said about the chart in hindsight shows that you are using sound logic. I’ve written some of my impressions below. Obviously I don’t have the insight into the situation or position of central focus that you have but hopefully some of it will strike you as significant or help clear up some of the confusion.

According to the chart I drew for this, Mercury is only 2 minutes of arc separated from its aspect of Jupiter. Of separation Lilly writes: “and as the significators do more separate, so will the matter and the affection of the parties more alienate and vary” (CA., p.110), so it is usual with very tight orbs of separation to find everything looking very promising to begin with, but as time passes the relationship becomes distant and unproductive. One interesting point here is that Lilly stated that separation begins when the two planets are “but six minutes distance from each other” – a comment which has caused great debate and diversity of opinion. Lilly’s approach may have been to not recognise this aspect as separating but still in a state of perfect alignment. Personally, I regard planets as separating and descriptive of that comment of increasing alienation if they are even 1 minute of arc apart, but I have never had charts that have rested on this principle that have proved otherwise.

With regard to the Moon and its VOC status, there are currently different views on how that is best defined, but most wouldn’t allow the trine to the NN to break its VOC status. The reason is because the Moon is considered to bring forth the virtue of its previous aspect into its next planetary contact. When it is void (or empty) in its course, the principle is that there is no planet for the Moon to commit its virtue to, so the action involved in the event loses its drift and the energy dissipates. The definition of ‘void’ involves the lack of aspect from the Moon to another planet, so it wouldn’t be affected by the Moon’s application to the nodes, Fortuna, fixed stars, angles, house cusps, midpoints or antiscion degrees. These add description, but they can’t take the Moon’s energy and use it directly.

Many astrologers see the Moon’s movement over the boundary of its current sign as the limit for defining its relevancy to the chart, and following that view this Moon would be considered VOC. However, it seems that Lilly and many other traditional authors allowed the Moon’s next aspect over a sign-boundary if the application was already in orb, in which case we would want to consider the relevancy of the Moon’s application by square to Mars on the MC. Mars on the MC calls for attention anyway, since it generally brings an influence of conflict and trouble. It is also worth considering that Mars rules the 3rd house which has the North Node tenanting its cusp. This is where the Moon’s application to the NN brings another point of emphasis to the 3rd house signification of this chart – but because the Moon is applying to the square of the 3rd house ruler, and that ruler is Mars, a malefic planet which is blighting the midheaven, this seems to be pointing to trouble or disagreement that can arise out of matters that fall under the attribution of the 3rd house. In a legal chart this might mean deeds or written contracts.

Although the question was ‘will I get a case?’, the chart will be descriptive of what happens regarding the issue asked about, and from what I’ve seen, and considering that Jupiter taken as the querent is weak in the 8th house of loss, and Mercury taken as the defendant is essentially debilitated by being in its sign of detriment, it may be that this case is weak and fraught with difficulties and the chart can be put to good use by highlighting areas of concern.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

foreteller – with regards to your comments:

Quote:
B. you think about outright spammng and scamming. not me. it's your fears and your ego. you can overcome it by asking horary if your fearful Ego
is correct. the ancient art of horary astrology answers all.
C. What's next? Just stop being Mr. Knows all, and you'll stop confuse great business deals with shamed nigerian scams.


I stated in a forum post to you that these kinds of links are not allowed, yet you still continued to insert them, meaning that I had to continue to remove them. I have also corresponded with you personally to ask you to stop trying to endorse internet business deals on this site, and to make sure you understand the reasons why they detract from the points raised in the posts and bring inconvenience to readers. Most of us are already plagued by unsolicited emails pushing this sort of ‘great opportunity’ upon us on a daily basis, so we are really NOT interested in learning about them here. I don’t have the time to keep editing your posts to clear them of unnecessary and unwelcome clutter or to keep explaining that this forum has rules which you agreed to abide by when you joined. One of those is “Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users”, and here again you’ve shown that you can’t be bothered with the rules that keep this forum useful and worth reading. I am sorry but as a result I will have to ask you not to post in this forum anymore.

Deb
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
According to the chart I drew for this, Mercury is only 2 minutes of arc separated from its aspect of Jupiter. Of separation Lilly writes: “and as the significators do more separate, so will the matter and the affection of the parties more alienate and vary” (CA., p.110), so it is usual with very tight orbs of separation to find everything looking very promising to begin with, but as time passes the relationship becomes distant and unproductive. One interesting point here is that Lilly stated that separation begins when the two planets are “but six minutes distance from each other” – a comment which has caused great debate and diversity of opinion. Lilly’s approach may have been to not recognise this aspect as separating but still in a state of perfect alignment. Personally, I regard planets as separating and descriptive of that comment of increasing alienation if they are even 1 minute of arc apart, but I have never had charts that have rested on this principle that have proved otherwise.


Deb: thanks, that was precisely the issue I had to grapple with when I drew the chart: should I treat the Mercury/Jupiter aspect as exact or separating? But of course I did not have any knowledge or authority to fall back on at the time.

The information you provide on VOC Moon is also very helpful.

Quote:
It is also worth considering that Mars rules the 3rd house which has the North Node tenanting its cusp. This is where the Moon’s application to the NN brings another point of emphasis to the 3rd house signification of this chart – but because the Moon is applying to the square of the 3rd house ruler, and that ruler is Mars, a malefic planet which is blighting the midheaven, this seems to be pointing to trouble or disagreement that can arise out of matters that fall under the attribution of the 3rd house. In a legal chart this might mean deeds or written contracts.


There are already two third house issues I can think of:

1. This case involves a charge of drink-driving ("driving" I think would be a 3rd House matter)

2. And more importantly, he has had difficulty in communicating with the defendant! Ever since the last court date he has tried calling her to no avail. He thinks he may have been given a wrong phone number or recorded the number incorrectly. So he is totally dependent now on her calling him; and she needs to do so rather soon.!! In fact, it may be, that she is losing interest in defending the charge - despite great interest in doing so initially (refer your comments re. separation above).
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess what? nothing happened! She never called. The case never went ahead. This chart is, I believe, a classic example of the "doctrine of separation" in action.

Deb: feel free to use this chart as a case-study in support of your approach to separating planets. Here, the key aspect between significators was separating by a mere 1-2 minutes of arc...and look what happened!! Seems that Lilly might be wrong about this after all, as you suggest - an allowance of 6 minutes of arc here would have given the wrong answer......
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