Retrograde planets and house cusps

1
Guys,
In traditional judgement a planet within five degrees of a house cusp is in the following house, right? How about a retrograde planet? Do we make the same consideration except in the opposite direction, considering it to be in the PREVIOUS house? Or with Nodes, that are always retrograde?
Any feedback greatly appreciated.
PL

2
Hi PL,

Planets are in houses because of the primary motion of the heavens, which carries all the planets around us every day. Whether they are retrograde or not, depends on their motion through the zodiac (called secondary motion). So a planet will be in a given house regardless of whether it is direct or retrograde, since its retrogradation/direction within the sign does not affect the way it sweeps around us with the rest of the heavens.

Traditionally, a planet will have the <i>strength</i> of the cusp that is 5 degrees away, but it will have some <i>signification</i> in both houses. So a planet in the 5th (a succeedent house), but within 5 degrees of the cusp of the 6th, will have the weakness of the 6th (a cadent house), but it will mean something for both the 5th and 6th houses.

Hope this helps!
Ben
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching

3
Hi Ben,

You wrote:
but it will have some signification in both houses. So a planet in the 5th (a succeedent house), but within 5 degrees of the cusp of the 6th, will have the weakness of the 6th (a cadent house), but it will mean something for both the 5th and 6th houses.
I?m a bit curious why you say this. In this situation I personally wouldn?t allow its signification in both houses, only the 6th. I follow Lilly?s methods and he seems very clear about it where he says ?yet if he [a planet] be within five degrees of the cusp of any house, his virtue shall be assigned to that house whose cusp he is nearest?.

I wouldn?t want to dispute your personal opinion but I know that you are well versed in medieval methods so I?m wondering if you are following another authority or if there is an interesting reference that I?ve missed.

4
Hi Deb,

This is the way I was taught and I'm sure I also read it in some authority, but to be honest I can't remember where. It may be that some medieval authorities did not state the principle this plainly, but that this is how they actually practiced.

My understanding of its rationale is that the planet (in my example) is really still in the 5th, but is conjunct the 6th, so it will have signification for both: one for location, one by conjunction. But for purposes of strength, it is close enough to the 6th to be weakened.

I saw a case of this sort of thing recently. A client of mine had the Moon and Jupiter conjunct in Pisces in the 6th. Jupiter was too far away from the cusp of the 7th, but the Moon was within 5 degrees. Jupiter ruled the 7th, so he represented the spouse: the spouse was weak and unsuitable (6th). Now if the Moon only had signification in the 7th, then we would expect a much better spouse. But she still had signification in the 6th. The combination of the Moon and Jupiter in Pisces in the 6th gave the native a nurturing quality that manifested in having many small animals as pets and being a veterinarian's assistant (6th).

This was underscored by the fact that the Moon was her professional significator. She was closest to any cusp (among other things), so we would already expect her to be a nurse or midwife or something like that. But her location in the 6th turned it in the direction of small animals.

I suppose one could object that the business about small animals came about because the Moon was conjunct Jupiter -- so that the Moon had nothing to do with small animals, but Jupiter did. Maybe. But her experience has been that the Moon has much more to do with 6th house experiences than anything else. If the Moon were only allowed to have signification in the 7th, we'd expect a lot more from her in the way of relationships. But as it is, it tends toward 6th-house events (which also goes with her other rulerships in the chart).

My sense is that the planet won't necessarily have <i>equal</i> meanings for both houses, but it has them for both, even if the native's life sees one emphasized over the other.

Ben
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching

5
Thanks for letting me know that Ben.

We had a thread led by Garry Phililpson (although begun by Prudence Reid) where this question of relevancy of the 5 degree rule was questioned and explored in detail.

My experience, for what it?s worth, is that in over 20 years of attributing a planet within 5 degrees of a cusp solely to that house, I have had results that have been effective, valuable and unproductive of confusion ? which means that I am unlikely to ever change my view that it is a principle that works and should be maintained. However, I also believe that within divinatory approaches the astrology responds to the astrologer?s viewpoint so I am not about to suggest that I am right and you are wrong. My interest in references was purely academic so if you ever come again across that reference which suggested support for your view please let me know.

Thanks, Deb

6
Hi Deb,

So are you saying that in your experience, when a planet is so placed it <i>never</i> has signification for both houses? Or are you just affirming that a planet will <i>at least</i> have signification for the house whose cusp it conjuncts? There might not necessarily be any contradiction between our experience.

Ben
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching

7
Unfortunately Ben (and a most sincere unfortunately because I really do have the greatest respect for your abilities as an astrologer), I think we are in disagreement. In your initial post I thought you gave a great explanation in the first paragraph but I wouldn?t have allowed any 5th house signification for a planet within 5 degrees of the 6th house cusp.

In the way that I understand it, the cusps of the houses are the points of power. The further removed a planet is from the cusp, the weaker its influence within that house becomes. So when a planet is within 5 degrees of a cusp its influence is entirely associated with that house in the astrology I use. There is no dual signification ? I could imagine this could cause great confusion. I have only associated a planet within 5 degrees of a cusp of a house as having its influence upon that house. I?m aware that many modern astrologers disagree with me, but in my opinion they are wrong :) The confidence I have in this is not just a result of my horary experience, but my experience of contemplating a great number of nativities as well. It may count for nothing in the end but I may as well put my experience on record.

8
Hi Deb,

Thanks for that background and explanation. As a point of interest I'll post the source of the two-house signification rule if I find it (something tells me it's in Morinus).

Ben
www.bendykes.com
Traditional Astrology Texts and Teaching

9
Deb,

I?m curious to know if you stick to 5 degrees absolutely or sometimes catch yourself stretching it a little. Situations such as 5 degrees and 4 minutes are difficult. Have you disciplined yourself to just say no? Sometimes it feels like something is drawing the planet forward. For example the Moon at 5 degrees and 4 minutes from the 6th house with Cancer on the 6th cusp would tempt me to say that the Moon is drawn to the 6th house. If the Moon were also applying to a conjunction with a 6th house planet I would be tempted even further. Maybe if I stuck to hard and fast rules I wouldn?t be so easily tempted. Once again it seems that the rules are very applicable and important for horary but somewhat softer for natal?or perhaps I have been influenced by the ?softness? of modern astrological thought. And then there is the simple fact that I just don?t have your experience.

Kirk

10
Have you disciplined yourself to just say no?
In astrology I have. I?m still working on the rest of my life :)

It?s part of my system so I don?t see any point in stretching or reducing the orb of allowance under any circumstances. If the Moon were 5 degrees and 4 minutes from the 6th house cusp I would read it as having it?s influence in the 5th house, but being so far towards the end of the house I would want to know why the Moon is so weakly placed in that area. If it were preceding the cusp of a house within 5 degrees I would see it as bringing a much more active focus to the influence of that house. Most of my charts do have significators near to their appropriate cusps and this is one of the indications I look for in establishing whether the horary is descriptive and reliable.

I can only think of a couple of charts where I was a bit disappointed because a slight shift would have placed a planet exactly where the rest of the judgement led me to believe it should be. One was recent and concerned a missing dog which the rest of the chart indicated was seriously injured or dead. The dog?s significator was within 5 degrees of the 9th house which stopped me from deciding for certain that the dog was already dead, instead I could only note a cause for concern over that. But the 9th house signification was important for describing the location of the dog?s body, so it was a necessary signification that led towards a more important answer, even though part of me still feels the symbolism would have been ?neater? with an 8th house significator.
Once again it seems that the rules are very applicable and important for horary but somewhat softer for natal?or perhaps I have been influenced by the ?softness? of modern astrological thought.
I adopted this approach when I was learning horary and studying Lilly?s methods. In horary, because you tend to stick to one method of house division and you need to keep a consistent approach, and because you have to accept the responsibility for the moment of the chart anyway, good results come from having a clear understanding of the symbolism and being rigid with your criteria. In natal work, the issue can easily get distorted because if two astrologers choose different house methods everything changes anyway. But I certainly apply it in natal work and any other type of astrology I do.

11
Deb,

Thank you for the reply. It helps greatly to know how someone who has our respect works. You have mentioned the focused mind of the astrologer many times, and the truth of it has soaked in for me. The rules serve a purpose.
If the Moon were 5 degrees and 4 minutes from the 6th house cusp I would read it as having it?s influence in the 5th house, but being so far towards the end of the house I would want to know why the Moon is so weakly placed in that area.
I hadn?t thought of looking at it that way. Saying no in this case actually makes things more interesting and complex.

Kirk