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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Italian/ Spanish - Government Shock Waves ?
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Rocko



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 788

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject: Italian/ Spanish - Government Shock Waves ? Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

I'm surprised we haven't had a thread on this started. It is a big story.

For many years people have warned that really it is Italy's Debt problems that'll sink the EU NOT Greece's.

And now there is a majority of left wing and right wing anti-Establishment parties who say they want Debt Relief or even to leave the Euro.

Reports in the BBC that these unusual bedfellows are willing for form a Government.

Incredibly the President, who sort of guides the formation of the new Governments, has said there should be a straight Vote on the Euro if it is the main theme of dispute so it is likely that there will be new Elections.

I assume that in the time till the next Election he'd hope that the EU would step in with some big sweetners to swing the Vote back towards the EU. Back towards the Eurozone Establishment Way.

He's proposed an interim Technocrat PM but there is News overnight that the proposed PM might NOT even bother forming a Government which would immediately be voted down by the MPs.

Astrologcally the time for the next Elections was going to be next January or next year, then September, but now possibly in July.

Down on the Sport and Speculation page I've been warning that next year starts -VEly with Uranus's permanent journey to Taurus, without r.Saturn's stabilisation.

I also have calculated that we'll hit general dis-harmony from the 15th Sept onwards. After the +VE Uranus r.Saturn near trine, and the +VE journey of Jupiter across Neptune mostly applying to Pluto.

I'm +VE about the period 10th July till the 14th Sept, except for 10 days around the Eclipse on the 27th July.

That Eclipse looks pretty juicy to the -VE. Just have to find out where it is going to hit the hardest.

So here's betting that a July Election will be around the Eclipse. Simply the Eurozone can't afford this Political upheaval in Italy.

As we are very much just coming off the Top of a Uber Mega run of Economic +VEs the wisest thing the EU could do would be to agree some Debt Relief all around.

Or will Greed outweigh Sense ?

I will add that Jupiter in Scorpio has been all about behind the scenes lubrication/ dirty deals so from the 10th July Jupiter starts his final dirty deal run across Neptune applying to Pluto.

One really big dirty deal is in the pipe line and for the Eurozone I'd say, as I think Neptune applying to Pluto is all about the Eurozone.

H

PS If anybody has a reliable chart for Italy I'd be interested in looking at it.


Last edited by Rocko on Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Rocko



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right I've got Charts for Italy 10th June 1946 (18hrs ?) and of course The Euro - Accounting System 1st Jan 1999 00hrs.

The Eclipse falls around the mid point of Italy's n.Pluto and n.Sappho in opposition.

But Heh let's wait till we hear when the Election will be.

H
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1362
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Italian Republic was proclamed in Rome on June, 10th 1946, some minutes after 6.00 (let us say 6.10 pm) after the referendum of June, 2nd.
The official result was expected for June, 18th but Nenni in order to placate rumours and problems announced the result in advance.
On June, 18th h:6.00 pm in Rome the Constitutional Court officially proclamed the Republic.
So some astrologers use the first chart, others the second, but maybe the first is most used.

p.s at the moment there is no "unholy majoriy" of of left and right wing, just two populist and anti-European parties, but nobody of them has the majority in the Parliament.
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Rocko



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Margherita,

I'm quoting the BBC who say that the anti-Establishment Parties do have a majority if they work together.

Keep us posted on what is happening "live" from Roma.

Thanks for the Charts.

For me either Chart shows that t.Node has recently swept over n.Pluto. I think that is a real Breaker.

From what we are hearing Italy is on the ropes over this Election.

Large Debts to pay and with an Economic Downturn brewing.

H
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Rocko



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it seems to have been the shortest Election Saga ever.

I understand that the anti-Establishment Parties have found a "reasonable" minded Economics Professor to be Finance Minister, and have moved the previous "anti-Euro" nomination to a European Ministers post.

And we should have an Italian Government any day now.

Meanwhile in Spain PM Rojoy looks like he is out but the incoming Socialist has promised to stick with the previous budget, in order to get in.

r.Jupiter continues to move away from Neptune, and in my book that weakens the Eurozone. Mars moves closer to opposing the Node, and Mercury will combust next week.

Lots of that point to a bit of a Mental week ahead.

H
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Rocko



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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Margherita,

I was caught off guard by the speedy formation of the Italian Government.

Did you catch the exact time they were sworn in ?

I think "We" need to put some effort into this as the Spanish Government also took a new life yesterday too.

So yesterday, or these last few days, was the birthday of two pretty unstable Governments that are pretty important for the Eurozone. Merkel too isn't too powerful these days.

Summer's coming on the Continent. I say the 15th Sept is the Downturn Point. No way back after that.

And I think if anything is going to sink the Euro it'll be Italy and Spain.

H
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Rocko



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok trying to piece the info together to find the "Swearing In" time ...

"1st June Rome (CNN)A law professor who has never held political office was sworn in as Italy's new Prime Minister on Friday afternoon, bringing to power a populist new government whose senior figures whipped up anti-immigrant and Euroskeptic sentiments in their path to office."

One time shown was 16:01hrs local so we can assume it was a little while before that.

The Technocrat PM has stated that he plans to organise the budget for 2019. Get that voted thru parliament and then call elections in early 2019.

H

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/01/europe/italy-new-government-sworn-in-intl/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+CNN+-+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Yahoo+Search+Results


Last edited by Rocko on Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rocko



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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So trying to make sense of what is going on in Italy and Spain.

1/ The new PM in Italy plans to "Steady the Ship", get a budget agreed for 2019, and then call elections early next year.

But Parliament still needs accept this. If NOT the August would be the earliest time for another election.

2/ The new Socialist PM in Spain plans to keep the current budget and then stay in power till the end of the current parliament in 2019 (?).

My experience with Mundane Astrology suggests that these two new Governments are dancing to similar Astrological tunes.

Probably the Italian one is more dominant as Spain already got bailed out.

It is the Italian Debt that is the issue.

Can we assume some dirty dealings will now go on to help them lighten that ?

H
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margherita



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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The swearing in ceremony chart: June, 1 h:4:08 pm Rome
Giuseppe Conte: August, 8th 1964 h:2:30 am Volturana Appula




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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita,

thanks for posting these charts and giving us this info..

it is interesting looking at contes chart and pondering the fate of italy...generally i think things are looking good for him, but not without many challenges too..

august by the time of his birthday/solar return, capricorn profection with saturn ruling is in effect... - profection years with the descendant sign rising are usually more challenging as i have noticed.. the 2018 solar return for him this year has saturn at 3 cap - in square to venus at 1 libra and a 4 degree out of sign opposition to the moon - ruler of cancer rising chart and located in the 12th house/sign of gemini.. of course the moon placement is important as it is the ruler of the solar return chart ascendant and his natal ascendant.. these are some of the obvious challenges.. still i sense this guy is popular up to a point and that will continue..

natal saturn is at 2 pisces - situated favourably to the rising sign and cancer planets - venus and mars.. teh 2018 solar return has saturn at 3 cap in a an out of sign opposition here with north node at 29 gemini - the degree of the moon in the 2018 solar return chart - which is interesting, but not sure how to properly interpret it all... saturn in his 2018 solar rturn chart is thus on the south node..

it is kind of confusing for me to try to articulate all that i see, but overall i think the biggest hurdle for conte to face has to do with finances.. this is obviously based on what has come out recently in the news on italy and finances - being in or out of the euro and all speculation on that..

here is the astro on why i say this.... in contes natal chart there is a close square of sun to neptune... the sun is in his natal 2nd - strong and ruler of the 2nd - his personal finances.. neptune squaring sun from the 5th implies speculation that undermines his financial position.. now - for the die hard trad crowd - i also note natal saturn is in the solar 8th house of his natal chart - leo to pisces.. this has to do with the finances of others... as leader of italy here - that would be the italian people as i read it.. this set up is not so favourable, in spite of his popularity among a section of italy... add to this the transit of neptune moving towards his midheaven degree in the 230 am chart - 23 pisces...

now add to this the solar arc data off the 230am chart.. at present sa midheaven is at 15 taurus 48 - a little over exact opposition to natal neptune... sa jupiter is at 16 cancer - makes sense he is now in this new position of prestige as this is within a degree of the 230am time ascendant.. the sa midheaven at 15 taurus is also directly square his sun at 15 leo - so again - more of his leo sun coming to the foreground with him being given this leadership position here.. however natal neptune is here in all this too.. how to interpret that 5th house neptune is a good question... how many kids does he have and are their any unaccounted for??

i need to study the swearing in chart more to make a prediction on the fate of this particular gov't speaking broadly..

back to conte's solar return 2018 chart..sr18 mars on the descendant doesn't help matters.. i suppose this is the ongoing challenge and antagonism he is going to face as he moves forward here..

from the wikipedia page on conte -
Controversies

"In May 2018, after President Mattarella designated him Prime Minister, The New York Times published an article asserting that Conte allegedly falsified his curriculum vitae by claiming to have studied at New York University, even though an NYU spokesman found no record of him attending.[64] Similarly, the Duquesne University of Pittsburgh, the University of Malta, and the Internationales Kulturinstitut of Vienna had no record of him in their archives.[65] However, Yale University confirmed that Conte studied there for three months.[66]"

is this an example of the 9th house natal saturn on display? or has this to do with neptunes connection to the 9th sign in his natal chart - pisces? or?
thanks again for sharing the charts margherita..
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
margherita,

i need to study the swearing in chart more to make a prediction on the fate of this particular gov't speaking broadly..



Not sure that the swearing-in ceremony is a great chart. Sun, natural ruler of Dignity in the 8th, Moon ruler of the 10th in his detriment. I don't believe Conte's government has a lot of time ahead.
Of the most longest Italian governments Berlusconi II, the longest, and Renzi (the fourth by duration) have (in the ceremony chart) the Sun in the 10th. I have not checked the others, anyway.
Conte has the Sun with the Moon, while in Movimento 5 stelle chart the Moon is in opposition with the Sun as in Grillo's chart and Casaleggio, the 2 founders of the Party. On the other hand Luigi Di Maio, vice-Prime Minister and Ministry of Labour, leader of Movimento Cinque Stelle has again Sun in conjunction with the Moon. Interesting coincidence Smile
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks margherita,

venus ruler of the ascendant applying to a close trine to jupiter would seem positive, until i notice venus also rules the 8th!

moon - ruler of the 10th in cap in a waning conjunction to saturn and both in opposition to venus - don't look so good either... moon is in the solar 8th - again, a negative as i see it and of course saturn in the solar 8th - the continued theme of others finances, or perhaps the place of italy in relation to the euro still stands out for me via this via..

i had read their may be another election within the year..
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Rocko



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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've picked up the following "facts" about the political situation in Italy.

1/ The Anti-Establishment parties don't really want Conte as PM. There will be a vote in Parliament any day now and they may vote him down.

Anyway I understand that Parliament does have to vote to accept or reject the New Government.

2/ They feel they are on the Ascendancy and therefore they believe they will win more power if there is another General Election. If 1/ occurs that could be as soon as August.

3/ I understand that the President has sort of stated that if they wanted an anti-Euro agenda then really the Electorate has to be given another say in that.

So he has sort of forced the Euro to the top of the agenda.

If all the above is true then we are in a high stakes game, and even if there was an Election in the relatively +VE Astro sphere of August it does seem to take an age to get the Government formed, and for me the cut of date is the 15th Sept.

When the trine between Uranus and Saturn, and Jupiter's journey across the then separating Neptune Pluto sextile are finished.

Also Uranus is then in a dangerous square with The Nodes/ Mars.

I think we also need to look at how the strongly -VE 27th July Lunar Eclipse might fall on to this Saga.

4/ I understand that the Italian Debt really is problematic. Greece's was nothing like Italy's and remember all the trouble over Greece.

My Analysis of the bigger Cycles does suggest, TO ME, that we are already of the Top of very high Top, and that after the 14th Sept there is very little to keep things afloat, except Jupiter's move into Sagittarius.

Now that's a Home Run but sometimes that means there isn't any further uplift in the tank.

And I'd doubt one strongish +VE like Jupiter in Sagittarius will save the situation.

H
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rocko,

as i understand it the euro currency is undergoing a major challenge and not all inside the house of euro are happy with how it all is working... speculation that soros is hoping to increase the volatility in the euro at this point too.. interesting..

brexit is an interesting angle to this too.. as i read it, the powers that be - msm and etc were telling the people of uk they were stupid to vote the way they did... it seems a similar dynamic is happening here... if anything, the people are not stupid and realize when the idea of democracy is only considered relevant when they vote a particular way... i expect more turbulence with the euro and italy leading the way in it all..
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Rocko



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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must admit I'm a bit confused by what is going on in Italy. The Anti-Establishment Government came just at the end of the r.Jupiter translation from Pluto to Neptune, who were applying.

My feeling is that Jupiter in Scorpio has been about behind the scenes "dirty dealing", and that that transit was sort of the reverse of that. Laying out their stall for the EU to come up with a "dirty deal."

Threatening the Euro, in return for what ? But I do understand that Italy's Debt really does threaten the Eurozone.

Further, I understand that the Government gets voted on today by the Lower House. I understand that they may vote the PM down and call new Elections for as early as August.

Mercury is moving towards combustion now so NOT a good time for a vote, but r.Jupiter is in trine, so again the "dirty dealing" may win the day.

H
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