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Jupiter, Saturn and Sagittarius

 
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Jupiter, Saturn and Sagittarius Reply with quote

Sagittarius might be one of the most difficult signs to understand because in modern tropical astrology this sign has caused a great deal of confusion between Jupiter and Saturn. A good place to start a discussion might be Chiria's observation of Sagittarius: http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aachiria-libra.htm

A note from Chiria on why tropical Capricorn is not like Saturn:

"In tropical astrology poor Saturn, ever the scapegoat, gets the blame for what Jupiter's more negative peccadilloes---namely being quick to judge others, snobbery, and class-consciousness. This is because the bulk of tropical Capricorn (where these traits have been observed) overlaps sidereal Sagittarius. In the tropical zodiac we're seeing Jupiter and interpreting it as Saturn. Saturn is anything but class- conscious; in fact it's the planet having most to do with the laboring class and with a belief in the equality of all humans."

It's productive to review what ancient astrologers have said about Sagittarius. On the "Sidereal Signs" thread Bogdan574 has quoted from Valens and Rhetorius. I've also found some material on Pabilsag (forerunner to Hellenistic Sagittariius) in Gavin White's Babylonian Star-Lore helpful to understand this sign.

Therese
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mesopotamia is as far back as we can go for hints as to fundamental meanings of signs of the zodiac. Even that ancient period may reflect only remnants of far more ancient and enlightened civilizations if we are to believe stories of Lemuria and Atlantis. But we must work for what we have, and we can thank Gavin White (Babylonian Star-Lore, 2007) for his wonderful research.

There are hints of twelve equal zodiacal signs even before these were formulated in the late Babylonian period. We have a prime example of this in Sagittarius, the Archer. As Gavin White writes, the origins of Sagittarius can be found in the composite figure called Pabilsag. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/babylonian_sagittarius.pdf (text and illustrations)

This figure was represented in various ways, but generally with the tail of a Scorpion. Any astrologer who has seen a sky map marked with sidereal sign boundaries has noted that the stars in the curve of the Scorpion's tail are actually located in Moola, the first mansion of Sagittarius. These include Lesath, Shaula and Sargas (Lahiri/Krishnamurti ayanamsas).

Pabilsag was often pictured with wings and the feet of a bird. Aquila, the Eagle extends into the final two mansions of sidereal Sagittarius. The southern hemisphere constellation of Pavo, the Peacock extends throughout the sidereal sign of Sagittarius.

Were these early figures of Pabilsag made to represent stars of the constellations in the sky area (measured from the ecliptic) of the zodiacal sign of Sagittarius? All we have is suggestions that this might be the case. But contemporary horoscopes with Sagittarius emphasis include those of individuals who have made flight a career choice. (pilots and astronauts)

Symbolism given to Pabilsag suggests Jupiter's later identification with Sagittarius. Gavin White notes that the Sag-sign (symbol) refers to the "top or tip" of something, and can be used to signify "first, foremost or top quality." (p. 155) This type of symbolism came to be associated in Hellenistic and later times with Jupiter. Gavin White notes as well that "Pabil-sag" revels him to be the chief ancestor or forefather.

Aside from Jupiter's role as king of the Gods, we'd need to look for evidence that Sagittarius may also have something to do with ancestry. One of my daughters (Sun in the 9th in Sagittarius) had made it a time consuming hobby to dig into her ancestry, even finding evidence of Mayflower connections. She posts extensive notes and charts on ancestry.com, and feels that family blood connections are extremely important.

To build upon Pabilsag's symbolism we have the early association of planetary triplicity lords (Dorotheus) with zodiac signs as well as the assignment of specific planets to indivdual signs in the roles of sign lords and exalted placements. The next step is to test the symbolism of these placements in contemporary horoscopes.

I have a collection of charts from AstroDatabank with the Sun and Jupiter in a sidereal Sagittarius ascendant, and have already posted notes and an article concerning the relationship of triplicity lords to sign trigons. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm Shortly I'll be able to post biographical notes of owners of these birth charts.

I have always held to the principle that major psychological traits belong to the planets rather than signs of the zodiac. Signs have more to do with surface mannerisims and what a person actually does in life. There can be myriad activities connected to a specific zodiac sign which is one reason that signs have been so difficult to research. But in some way each activity relates to the ruling or exalted planet, as well as to stellar symbolism.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AstroDatabank pulled up a handful of charts with the Ascendant, Sun and Jupiter in Sagittarius with enough biographical information to use for research. I added the additional requirement that Jupiter be five degrees or less from a conjunction to the ascendant. It wasn't possible to find a common theme describing personality characteristics, but the overall picture pointed to the drive, concentration and determination necessary to follow a chosen path that led to success.

The names below are the ADB Ascendant-Jupiter-Sun charts with biographical information, and I also found additional information on the Internet for some of these individuals. Brief biographical information here is taken from AstroDatabank. I'll post additional information with the charts. I've bolded words that can be attributed to Jupiter or the Sun (triplicity lords).

Margaret Mead, prominent American cultural anthropologist
Alan Vaughn, noted parapsychology researcher and respected psychic
Pat Rafter, tennis champion
Glenn Davis, American football hero, outstanding all around athlete
Lynne Davis, Australian beautician and cosmetics advisor (i.e. professional status?)
Edoardo Ponti, noted family (son of Sophia Loren) and film director

There were no ADB charts with Sun and Jupiter on a Sagittarius ascendant that were noted for health problems or misfortune. Next it's interesting to study why the personalities of Sun-Jupiter-Ascendant people vary in so many ways.
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Bogdan574



Joined: 06 Nov 2013
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only have my own birth data, which is on Soluners. I don't have the complete birth charts of any other Sagittarius, unless you want the charts of famous people. Unless you want me to make approximations for people's birth data.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ascendant, Sun and Jupiter in Sagittarius; Jupiter-Asc. orb <5 degrees

Chart #1: PAT RAFTER, Australian tennis star




"Pat is the seventh of Jocelyn and Jim Rafters nine offspring, a dinkum (good old boy) Aussie, noted for his cheerful, sporting manner, named Australian of the Year, 2002. A humble man known for a gracious manner on the court, great generosity and a gentlemanly demeanor at all times..." http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Ra/P/Patrick-Rafter.aspx

"Rafter was a polite and well-mannered child who opened car doors for his mother. On his first day at preschool, he bravely said he wanted to walk in by himself...Rafter's good looks and exuberance added some much-needed flair to men's tennis, but despite his razzle-dazzle performances on the court, his samurai-style ponytail bouncing, those who know him best say he's just a regular guy with good sense." (ADB)

We can take these biographical traits apart and assign them to planets:

Jupiter: cheerful, flair, exuberance, razzle dazzle
Gauquelin trait words for Jupiter: jovial, good humored, sparkling, theatrical, lively, gets carried away easily

Venus: gracious manner, gentlemanly demeanor, good old boy, generosity
Gauquelin trait words for Venus: benevolent, gallant, amiable, considerate, courteous
Interestingly, in her book Psychology of the Planets Francoise Gauquelin lists Jupiter as "NOT generous"

We can easily see the trait word match between both Jupiter and Venus. But Venus has no relationship to Sagittarius. This is why I am posting the navamsa charts along with natal charts. Pat Rafter has Venus on his navamsa Sagittarius ascendant in partile opposition to the Moon. This acts essentially like a natal Venus-Moon conjunction. Navamsa Venus also conjoins natal Sun within one degree. Rafter's Moon is in one of the sociable, affable signs (Virgo) whose triplicity lords are the Moon and Venus. Moon is also conjunct the M.C.

I've generally found the navamsa chart to be a greater key to personality and character than the natal chart, which often has more to do with external life fortune or events. If Sagittarius has a "personality," then Pat Rafter's Venus is bringing out the best of the sign. The two remaining charts to be posted lack the Venus influence, so have different personality profiles.

I don't know why ADB has this chart listed as female. It is no doubt a typing input error.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bogdan574 wrote:
I only have my own birth data, which is on Soluners. I don't have the complete birth charts of any other Sagittarius, unless you want the charts of famous people. Unless you want me to make approximations for people's birth data.

With your permission, we can post and discuss your chart, Bogdan. I have your data from Solunars and can post your chart. (I have two more Asc-Jupiter-Sun charts to post first.)

Approximate birth times won't work because the navamsa ascendant is an important key to personality if planets are located there. The navamsa Moon can also be important for personality. Timed charts of famous people can be used if there is good biographical information to go with the charts.

The ascendant sign, and if available the ascendant degree (the "hour marker") was always the key to the chart from Hellenistic times. This is why the ascendant degree is critical.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ascendant, Sun and Jupiter in Sagittarius; Jupiter-Asc. orb <5 degrees

Chart #2: LYNNE DAVIS, Australian beautician and cosmetics advisor




Lynn has had breast implants, and a younger brother who committed suicide. "She [is] described as stubborn, vain and self-centered, yet showing an optimistic side." (ADB)

Gauquelin trait words:
Mars:
stubborn, firm, obstinate
Jupiter: vain, self-willed, optimistic

Lynn Davis has the Moon sandwiched between the Sun and Jupiter, but it's the opposition of Mars that has influenced her life in important ways. Mars is powerful by being in its own bounds, but is in a sign inhospitable to itself. So Lynn has had breast surgery (Mars opposite 4th lord Jupiter), and a younger brother committed suicide (Mars opposite Saturn, 3rd lord.) Also Ketu (loss) is on the cusp of 3rd, younger brothers.

Mars as a malefic has brought Jupiter's less desirable traits to the fore, though still allowing optimism to show through. Jupiter is on Lynne's navamsa ascendant, which increases its importance in her chart, but in a sign (Virgo) with which it has no affinity. It would seem that the strong angular placement of Mars along with Jupiter's undesirable navamsa position has resulted in Lynn being seen as "stubborn, vain and self-centered."

I like to note that the Moon in general is happier in an even sign as this allows it to be friendlier and more openly expressive. (Moon is triplicity lord of the Taurus trigon, exalted in Taurus, and is domicile lord of Cancer of the Cancer-Scorpio-Pisces trigon.)

Although Lynn is a beautician and cosmetics advisor, Venus isn't in an angular position and doesn't aspect the ascendant, Sun or Moon. Therefore Jupiter may be a planetary signature of her work as it is in the Venus mansion of Sagittarius. Saturn in the first house disposits Venus on the second cusp, so this is one way that Venus is brought to a more prominent postition.

Venus is trine to the 10th house cusp, which indicates a career or public recognition is in a Venus area. But Venus does not influence Lynne's personality. She is probably quite attractive as Venus on cusp 2 relates to the face in Jyotish.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ascendant, Sun and Jupiter in Sagittarius; Jupiter-Asc. orb <5 degrees

Chart #3: MARGARET MEAD, noted cultural anthropologist



"Cultural icon, professional maven, true public intellectual, staff-toting prophet, and even, Mother of the World and Grandmother to the Nation, such are the phrases that have surfaced in descriptions of Margaret Mead. She was an indomitable, controversial and revolutionary woman in her personal style, her topical interests and her methodological concerns. She was opinionated, she was difficult, and, as a result, at times she seems to loom larger than life even decades after her death...

"We celebrate Mead's life because she was daring, outspoken and willing to experiment with new topics, ideas, and technologies. Her face has graced a U.S. postage stamp and even a wall at Epcott Center, because she stands out as remarkable woman of her times. Margaret Mead was, during her lifetime, a household word, her activities rendering anthropology intelligible to the average American."
Reference:
Margaret Meads Legacy: Continuing Conversations
Guest edited by Lesley Sharp
sfonline.barnard.edu/mead
WEBJOURNAL


With Jupiter and Mars bracketing her ascendant, Margaret Mead seems almost to have written the book on trait words for Jupiter and Mars:

Gauquelin trait words for Jupiter: audacious, authoritative, communicates well, conquering type, enterprising, frank, imperious, independent, tough, influences others, mastership, original, popular, successful

Gauquelin trait words for Mars: adventurous, audacious, decisive, direct, dynamic, enterprising, indomitable, obstinate, opinionated, pioneer

Even in her navamsa chart, Margaret Mead has Mars and Jupiter on either side of a Martian (Scorpio) ascendant. As the Moon is also in Scorpio with Saturn, Saturn will in some way influence the personality:

Gauquelin trait words for Saturn: hard-working, industrious, ingenious, concentrates well, confident

*******************************************************
But any researcher knows that in order to test an effect one or more control groups should be studied. I asked ADB for charts of Jupiter and the Sun on a Capricorn ascendant since Capricorn is the sign of Jupiter's fall. I had to enlarge the orb of Jupiter to the ascendant to 8 degrees to obtain even two charts. One chart was simply noted as "race car driver," and the second chart was that of Steve Reeves (21 January 1926, 8 am MST, Glasgow, MT) American physical culturist, a 6' 1", 215-lb winner of the contests for Mr. America, 1947 and Mr. Universe, 1950.

"He became a star actor since 1953 in Italian muscle-man spectaculars such as "Goliath and the Barbarians," "The Giant of Marathon" and "The Thief of Baghdad." ...An early sex symbol, he continued his muscular heroics until 1969 when he gratefully left some 20 movies behind to breed horses and raise his own food on his 14-acre organic farm in California." (Saturn rulership!) Reference: ADB

Steve Reeve's profile is interesting because Capricorn is the exaltation sign of Mars. (I have found this sign significant for sports champions.) With Reeves we have a powerful physical expression of Jupiter and the Sun. It must be significant that dispositor Saturn is located in Mars-ruled Scorpio conjunct the M.C.

I also recently completed a research project that was published in the Fall/Winter 2012-2013 NCGR Research Journal. One of the positions tested was Jupiter conjunct a Capricorn ascendant within five degrees. There was only one prestigious professional in the group, an attorney. Careers in the entertainment field had the highest total. (Sagittarius on cusp 12, natural house of Jupiter ruled Pisces). Education and writing combined for the next highest total. The explanation may be that Capricorn belongs to the social, communicative trigon of signs.
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Bogdan574



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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you're using a Vedic natal chart. December 16 is an interesting day because it saddles Scorpio and Sagittarius. The Fagan and Bradley natal chart lists December 16 as in Scorpio while the Vedic natal chart lists December 16 as in Sagittarius.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bogdan574 wrote:
I guess you're using a Vedic natal chart. December 16 is an interesting day because it saddles Scorpio and Sagittarius. The Fagan and Bradley natal chart lists December 16 as in Scorpio while the Vedic natal chart lists December 16 as in Sagittarius.

Yes, the ayanamsa changes the position of Margaret Mead's Sun, but her Sun is still in Sagittarius using the Fagan-Bradley value. Thanks for pointing out the difference. It's not "Vedic" so much as the chosen ayanamsa. There are very few astrologers who now use the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa.

Because Jyotish astrologers use the divisional (varga) charts such as the navamsa (9th harmonic) and dwad (12th division), they have found these sub charts to be more accurate with the Lahiri or Krishnamurti ayanamsa. Those two ayanamsas are only six minutes apart. The difference between Fagan and Lahiri is 53 minutes, so any planetary position will be 53 minutes greater with the Lahiri ayanamsa.

In Margaret Mead's navamsa chart, using the Fagan ayanamsa, Saturn and the Moon would go back to Venus-ruled Libra and would no longer be part of the Scorpio stellium. The Moon, then, would be primarily influenced by Saturn. It does not seem that Moon-Saturn in Libra suits Mead's personality profile. Fagan did point out the importance of the Moon in the navamsa chart, but he calculated the navamsa from Taurus rather than Aries.

Note: The program I use, Solar Fire 5, doesn't draw the navamsa chart correctly. The navamsa is "sign as house," so in Margaret Mead's navamsa chart, all the Scorpio planets are in Scorpio, the first "house."
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Bogdan574



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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There are very few astrologers who now use the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa.


Why so little? Who are the few that do?
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bogdan574 wrote:
Quote:
[Therese wrote] There are very few astrologers who now use the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa.

Bogdan: Why so little? Who are the few that do?

Cyril Fagan and others such as Donald Bradley (Garth Allen), Rupert Gleadow and Carl Stahl resurrected the sidereal zodiac in the west. Their approach was highly technical, perhaps because these men were using mathematics to demonstrate the superiority of solar and lunar return charts over the tropical versions.

There were never very many converts from the tropical zodiac. Then (in the 1960s or 1970s??) books and teachers on India's astrology began to become popular, especially in southern California. Many Fagan followers changed over to India's astrology and began using the Lahiri ayanamsa.

With the birth of the American Council of Vedic Astrology in the early 1990s, India's astrology now had a vocal, enthusiastic and organized platform. Seminars and classes became popular, and soon a number of books on India's astrology written by western authors appeared. Fagan's weak following became even weaker. Now (as far as I know) there are very few astrologers left who are dedicated to Fagan's vision and his ayanamsa. No doubt the most visible and active platform is James Eshelman's Solunars web site.

David Monroe has authored a book dedicated to Fagan's technical precision (Personal Prediction). However he has used the tropical zodiac in the hopes that astrologers will experiment with certain Fagan-type techniques.

Kenneth Bowser, a staunch supporter of Fagan's astrology and ayanamsa, has recently authored An Introduction to Western Sidereal Astrology. But oddly enough, that book doesn't really reflect Cyril Fagan's technical approach, and the (quite good) aspect section reads rather like a tropical textbook. My opinion of the section on signs of the zodiac is that it is backed by little or no research, and again, reads somewhat like a tropical text. I expected something totally different from Kenneth Bowser.

The majority of astrologers who favor Fagan's approach are older, and many have died. Without Jim Eshelman's web presence and active discussion site, few would remember Fagan's astrology, and even fewer would use his ayanamsa. However, Fagan left a very valuable legacy in showing the mathematical superiority of return charts with precession removed. Essentially these return charts, even if calculated in the tropical zodiac, are sidereal.

Jim Eshelman would likely have a more complete picture of astrologers who use Fagan's ayanamsa and techniques in our current century.
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RodJM



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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:


The majority of astrologers who favor Fagan's approach are older, and many have died. Without Jim Eshelman's web presence and active discussion site, few would remember Fagan's astrology, and even fewer would use his ayanamsa. However, Fagan left a very valuable legacy in showing the mathematical superiority of return charts with precession removed. Essentially these return charts, even if calculated in the tropical zodiac, are sidereal.

Jim Eshelman would likely have a more complete picture of astrologers who use Fagan's ayanamsa and techniques in our current century.


Finally got around to reading this thread,

I don't know what it is with Jim Eshelman's Solunars forum, but I've applied a few times now to join but don't get any confirmation.. perhaps he doesn't want any new contributors??

In any case, we can always contribute on here. Very Happy
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