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magic and astrology
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JPskyman



Joined: 29 Jun 2013
Posts: 33

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, I hope he isn't asking me, as that question is above my pay grade!

But I'll give Waybread's question a try.

In some sense, to me at least, both 'magic' and 'religion' are somewhat different paths to get ultimately at the same place or goal--to transcend the ordinary, to find meaning and purpose, to be introspective, to self-empower, and to re-connect. That last word-- re-connect-- is similar to the Latin root of the word religion, to RE-BIND. I think, ultimately, the re-binding or re-connection is to the Ultimate in the universe, the Absolute--whatever that may mean to a person. In my culture, we call that God, but I am not going to try to impose that metaphysic on anyone. In my opinion, both magic and religion, at their bests and with the best intentions of the seeker, can be roots to that Absolute, that Ultimate, either separately or in combination.

I think there are all sorts of differences that people can say about magic and religion--especially in regards to the world's major religions. They tend to be based more on common beliefs, dogmas, and liturgies and practices. Magic may have some of those, but not to the degree of the traditional concept of religion.

Of course, magic also attempts to tap into the mystery inherent in the universe to improve a person's life, or other words, to affect change in conformity with will--that last clause is a paraphrase of Aleister Crowley.

All of this--literally every word--is just a symbol attempting to describe a part of something that is ultimately indescribable, unutterable. That is why humans turns to symbol, to myth, to ritual, to liturgy, to meditation, to prayer, to magic. And astrology's symbol system has a substantial piece in that, at least to me.

Please know that all of these are just my musings after a long period of reading and reflection. I personally love the writing of people like Frithjof Schuon, Joseph Campbell, Mircea Eliade, John Hick, Paul Tillich and many others, and they have informed my thinking on this quest.

But all of this is a very personal matter, for me and others, and everything I posited here is really just some thinking, only partially organized, of a seeker. And as a serious seeker (or at least one who tries to be serious), I want to try all roads and paths--astrology across the ages has long proven a path to other serious seekers--that's why I am here!
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well first of all I disagree with Crowley's definition of magic (in response to JPskyman's mention of him): to affect change in conformity with will, because with that definition, making toast is magical. It leaves out an important component: spirit.

Agrippa and Picatrix agree that magic unites the three worlds, which are the natural, celestial, and spiritual. If you remove one of those components, it's not magic anymore, but something else.

Religious faith doesn't require magic, but I think magic requires some kind of religious faith. It's not a science in the modern sense that is removed from spirituality, though it CAN have some of those components to it.
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JPskyman



Joined: 29 Jun 2013
Posts: 33

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good points. Magic so often--if not always, as you imply--deals with the whole of the universe, including 'worlds' beyond the physical plane we experience ordinarily. So in that sense, 'faith', or at least acknowledgment of mystery, is essential to magic.

Of course, in Roman Catholic and Orthodox (and Anglican) traditions, these religions conduct ritual magic--they 'call down the God' into the transubstantiated bread and wine. I was raised a Catholic from the cradle, and I never really appreciated that part of the mass until I opened my mind and realized just what that ritual was doing--it is magic, really!

On the Beast: I am not a Crowley-follower, but I do think he has done some pretty amazing things with magical theory. A committed Thelemite might say that Crowley is talking about Will, with a capital 'W'--and in that sense, spirit is completely envisioned in his definition. Crowley never--or at least very infrequently--made clarity one of his priorities!

A good discussion!! Anyone have thoughts on Ficino or Pico? Or John Dee? They certainly play in this topic!
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trained on the lines of Babylonian Magic 22 years ago. I am a very normal person and dont wear funny hats, cloaks or drink blood.

Magic, is an attempt to use 'Energies/Forces' existing in this Universe to bring about the desired effect via

-Actively Harnessing or
-Aligning or
-Making Petitions

English is not my first language, so I would be coining few terms for better understanding.

There are 4 Kinds of Magic

1. Natural magic
2. Homeopathic Magic
3. ''Thought Forms'' Magic
4. Religious Magic

It might be open to debate, but I would try to associate a known person and an area to the proponents of these magics.


1. Natural Magic

Person: Archimedes
Area: Hellenistic World

[b]It is the most potent magic existing on this planet. Its proponents are called Scientists, Technicians and Inventors. Instead of sitting idly, they actively engage in understanding and harnessing the Energies/Forcing existing in this world primarily through rational and materialistic medium. The achievements of 'Natural Magician are tangible, easy to quantify and have been known to benefit the Human Kind but are extremely detriment to the everything else on this planet. The Crown of this class of magicians belongs to the 'Computer Programmers and Software Developers'.



[b]2. Homeopathic Magic


Person: Abraham
Area: Babylonia (More particularly the City of Babylon)

The potency of Homeopathic magicians ranks after the Natural Magician. In 'Homeopathic Magic, the affinities/similarities existing between the different objects is tried to find out and use on an intrinsic and philosophical plane. The proponents of this Magic either mimic the actions existing in nature or aligns with the forces to bring about the desired effect. Astrological Magic belongs to this category of magicians. This magic has been known to seriously hinder the normal Karmic workings and removing or trying to remove those challenges which might spur the Humans to new levels of existence and endurance. Homeopathic Magicians are benign to this planet and to everything on this planet except Humans. The Crown of this class of magicians belongs to 'Shamans'.


3. 'Thoughts Forms' Magic



Person: Nepher Phro-Ra Akhun-Atun (before conversion known as Akhun-Amun)
Area: Egypt

In this form of Magic 'Thoughts Forms' are created for a specific purpose. These 'Thoughts Forms' are called by many names like , Geni, Spirits, Moakals (in Urdu or arabic) Bhero (In Hindi). It must be noted that these entities are not real and are created by the Humans hence this magic works on 'Creative Plane'. This is the most dangerous type of magic, few people know that these 'Thought Forms' have to be destroyed (yes destroyed and not released as misguided people think). If these Thoughts Forms if not destroyed are a 'Form of Energy' and for sustenance they suck energy either from the person who created or the person who used them. They live on for eternity and cause-if not destroyed- Psychosis, Depression, Suicidal Insanity. It runs in families, generations after generations.

If I am given opportunity to make laws I would ban this third type of Magic, unless the practitioner has been trained exactly on the 'Egyptian Priesthood' lines.

This form of Magic-if effective-has short term pseudo beneficial magic and is ultimately extremely malign for every being living on this planet.

Amulets, Talismans, Naqoosh (Magic Squares) belong to this domain of Magic. The Crown of this class of Magician belongs to magicians of Naga Land and Assam (India)


4. Religious Magic[/b]

Person: Any Priest of Any Known Religion
Area: Middle East

This is the most weakest form of Magic and it addresses the innate Human desire to be immortal, to fear, to worship, to plead and to ask help. This Magic works on the 'Neural Plane'. The Proponents of this Magic, carry elaborate rites and rituals to please certain deities (irrespective of the fact whether they exist or not). The proponents of this magic think that they have answers to all the questions of this planet earth, this life and after life. This magic is exploitative in nature and enslaves. Many wars have been waged to justify their own brand of deity. The Crown of this class of magician belongs to a certain former president (who is also son of a former president) and his very close associate who was killed in the month of May, I forgot the year.[/b]
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Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 668

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Morpheus. Do you still practice the magic you were trained in and what is the basis for your judgements on each type?
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad,

Yes, I still practice the Magic. I see that you are also a fellow Magician (Ref: Your Blog).

I was also interested in 'Thought Forms'Magic, however, my Master did not allow me to practice it because my Natal Moon is weak. Many of my friends are Magicians (Thought Forms). My post is the result of my active working, interaction with other magicians and self study.
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Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morpheus, do you have any interesting real life anecdotes of magic?
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henrylloyd



Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Posts: 1

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: magic Reply with quote

I love magic, it's a great talent. A well experienced person can only perform good magic. I respect magicians and their talent.


Jake
Essays Chief
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 890
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say that I don't believe in magic as a practice, other than in a metaphorical sense. I find enough mystery, awe, and wonder in the world around me without wanting to think of working with spells, charms, and the like. However, you might enjoy reading this suite of short articles by Robert Hand at Astrodienst:

https://www.astro.com/astrology/in_astrobyhand_e.htm

You have to be patient, as the early articles build the case for his discussion of magic near the end.
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