Mutual Reception...again

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Hello @ll

I am new to this forum and also new to Traditional Astrology.
I read all posts of a previous topic on Mutual Receptions but did not find an answer to my doubts. It's the following:

R.Zoller in his CMA course (Lesson 3) states (but does not explain) that:
"The Sun is in detriment, but, while opposed to Saturn, it
is in mutual reception with Saturn. That is, they are in each
other's Signs. This was held by some Medieval Authorities to
be a great good thing. It was held to be similar to having the
two planets in dignity, working together. So, employing this
opinion, we can expect the Sun to be brilliant and powerful
and Saturn to be reserved, knowledgeable and indicating a
taste for ancient, arcane studies." NB: Sun in Aqua, Saturn in Leo
Later on Zoller states that "(the benign effect of the
mutual reception can be debated)".

First he states a fact and later he introduces a "reasonable doubt" to the fact.
Hence my question: should one consider that mutual reception cancels the malignity of the planets involved or not? If "yes", is there an explanation as to how such a "switch" occurs?

Also I am a little curious as to the "some Medieval Authorities"
Who may they have been?

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I don't know. Perhaps what he means is, some medieval astrologers consider mutual reception to be a "great good thing". I don't know of any authority that regards two debilitated planets in opposition with reception to be a "great good thing". The best this does is ease the worst effects of the opposition. You can quickly note the kind of difference expected from Bonatti in an opposition that has reception against one that doesn't, from the table at the top of this page: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html

Several horary authors stress the fact that they have rarely seen anything perfected by opposition (with reception or not); that did not generate a great deal of trouble.

3
Hello Deb

Thanks for your quick reply.
I am amazed at your honesty, when you start with "I don't know". Nowadays to find someone who says this publicly is very difficult, if not impossible.
My dearest respects and congratulations!!! And thanks for you article. Will read it carefully.

Returning to what Zoller says, I have a personal example on the veracity of his statement (that mutual reception between opposed planets in bad conditions cancels their mallicity):
My Sun is in Libra conjunct Virgo Ascendant (in 2nd house by WH) ruling 12th house, in very close opposition (less than one degree) to Saturn in Pisces on Descendant (in 8th house by WH).
In short, this configuration seem to lead into financial problems (Sun in HII by WS, ruler of HXII) and struggling with financial debts (Sun in HII opposition Saturn in HVIII by WS), [b]BUT [/b] the situation is quite the opposite!
I may have had some mild and short lasting financial difficulties (who doesn't have them during a lifetime span?) in the past but debts, I don't recall having them in such amounts as to be worried (buying a car - or something similar - on credit in easily manageable financial conditions - I don't consider as debts). i have an upper middle-class comfortable living with absolutely no debts (not even mortgage).

Concluding, I support Zoller's statement and am interested in hearing what our peers have to say.

5
It would be good for you to get other opinions from students who have studied with Zoller for confirmation of what Zoller would have taught, but from what you describe I wouldn't call this an opposition of two debilitated planets in mutual reception and doubt Zoller would. The Sun in Libra is opposing Saturn and Saturn receives the Sun by exaltation (which is one of the best forms of reception), but the aspect is out of sign and there is no reception from the Sun in Libra to Saturn in Pisces. (I'm assuming your Sun is at the end of Libra and you have a night-time chart).
But also bear in mind that there are many other factors to be considered when making a judgement on indications of wealth. I'm afraid I don't use the whole-sign system, so the elements of your reasoning that depend on that don't mean a lot to me. Hopefully you'll get more responses so you can hear other thoughts too.

6
zollers chart is the first example you offered.. i have posted his chart below.. i doubt it would make this opposition in mutual reception favourable in any significant way given that it falls across the 6/12 houses.. t square with chiron at the top also points to health issues too.. zoller is a highly regarded astro teacher. jupiter in the 9th as ruler of the midheaven points to this, but perhaps chiron at the top of the t square in the 9th sign from the ascendant points to this too.. i suppose this is a separate conversation for discussing the potential benefits of having a focal planet at the top of a t square.. i agree with deb though that there are many factors that go into reading a chart. you don't mention the 2nd house ruler in the quick description you offered on your own chart and finances..

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Sorry, sorry, sorry...
I made a mistake in the planet positions (Sun opposition Saturn)
The mistake was the following: SATURN IS IN ARIES, not in Pisces.
Hence the correct positions should read:
"My Sun is in Libra conjunct Virgo Ascendant (in 2nd house by WH) ruling 12th house, in very close opposition (less than one degree) to Saturn in [b]ARIES[/b] on Descendant (in 8th house by WH)".
Therefore Saturn receives Sun and Sun receives Saturn, by exaltation.
and one opposes the other.

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> james_m

The 2nd house ruler is Mars in Sagittarius in H IV (quadrant) or is Venus in Virgo on Asc (WH) Note that Libra is intercepted in H II (Quadrant) and Aries is intercepted in H VII and that Mercury in Virgo in H XII (quadrant) or in H I (WH) is the ruler of H I, H IX (quadrant), H X and is the Almutem Figuris of the chart.

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> james_m

Forgive me but I don't see the point in bringing Chiron into Traditional astrology delineations ???
About the opposition Sun - Mercury in Zoller?s chart, he delineates it extensively in his CMA course, Lecture 3 without mixing Chiron into the picture.

> Deb

I respect your position on what concerns Whole Houses but I see much more consistency in my chart when I use this system.
For example, my Mercury in H I (WH) makes much more sense to me than in
H XII (limitations, fears, loneliness etc) since I have a PhD in Electrical Engineering and was for the last 18 years Professor in a renowned University (MERCURY in H I (WH) not H XII (quadrant)).
Another example is my Saturn - Sun mutual reception and opposition, which started this thread.

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Larxene is certainly right that those who have studied with Zoller are best informed to discuss his methods. For a broader discussion of the principle, I think it would be best to use an historical example, if one can be found. Although Zoller discusses his own chart in his own course, without knowing that he is happy to have it discussed openly and publicly I'd be uncomfortable making comments on that.

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Also I am a little curious as to the "some Medieval Authorities"
Who may they have been?

Robert Zoller has referred to Abu Mashar as "The Prince of Astrologers," so he's a good bet.

Re: two planets in detriment in mutual reception (e.g. Jupiter in Gemini; Mercury in Sagittarius), I'm pretty sure it was Zoller and if so it is in his Arabic Parts in Astrology who said such a mutual reception was like two drunks holding each other up on the way home. It was some help, but not much.

When quoting him from that book there is a caveat. He has stated that the no longer accepts some of what is in that text. Other than the outer planets he no longer uses, I don't know what those ideas are. Perhaps Ben Dykes will spot this and tell us. He might know.