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"saving" a planet in cadent or succedent house
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 525

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It has been said that reception breaks malice (Sahl, Bonatti) and angular planet is sufficiently strong to handle his own matters as well as long as it is the receiver of the disposition and not the pusher.


That's right. I was not going to question the authorities, but what I said had exactly happened in at least a dozen of soccer charts in my archive. Of course, the receivers and pushers were different but the effect was such as I said.

In general, superiors and luminaries are a little bit fitter for all kind of business than inferiors (even the very term points to worthiness of superiors and "unworthiness" of inferiors) which are somewhat unstable of their nature.

We have two primary cases and a number of variations considering the nature of reception or non-reception.

The first is when the pusher is angular but the receiver is cadent, the second the receiver angular, the pusher cadent.

Suppose, a dignified and angular Mercury (in Gemini or Virgo) pushes to a cadent Jupiter. It is clear that it was wrong choice of Mercury to delegate its stuff to such a bad manager as the cadent Jupiter (the worse if the manager were a malefic in a bad state). Whether Jupiter actually benefits from such Mercury's pushing from a place of the latter's detriment is a debatable question (in soccer, yes). Whereas Mercury itself suffers a lot from such pushing, much more as if it was the other way - the receiver was in a strong place but the pusher in a weak one. I'm sure that such Jupiter would successfully manage his own things and help Mercury but his ability of managing his own things would be reduced to a certain degree. Mercury as a vamp sucks his precious blood.

"Reception breaks malice" in my opinion is true if all other things are equal, i.e. there are no strong indications to the contrary in a given chart. If the "received one", for example, is the lord of 8th, 6th, 12th or whatever else, if the context of the chart points to a negative meaning of the received one, then it is better if there is no such reception.
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Suppose, a dignified and angular Mercury (in Gemini or Virgo) pushes to a cadent Jupiter. It is clear that it was wrong choice of Mercury to delegate its stuff to such a bad manager as the cadent Jupiter (the worse if the manager were a malefic in a bad state).


I remember from Benjamin Dykes' book ITA, that one has to look at the celestial state of the receiving planet. If it is bad, it cannot cope with the responsibility and returns the influence to the sending planet.
What do you think of that?
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Quote:
Suppose, a dignified and angular Mercury (in Gemini or Virgo) pushes to a cadent Jupiter. It is clear that it was wrong choice of Mercury to delegate its stuff to such a bad manager as the cadent Jupiter (the worse if the manager were a malefic in a bad state).


I remember from Benjamin Dykes' book ITA, that one has to look at the celestial state of the receiving planet. If it is bad, it cannot cope with the responsibility and returns the influence to the sending planet.
What do you think of that?


Of course, one has to weigh all the relevant testimonies.

If the receiver of the disposition is under the beams/burned/retrograde or cadent, it is unable to retain the light and returns it. The return of light is with amelioration if the cadent 'pusher' is received, if not, then with corruption/detriment.

Regards,
Goran
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Janis Valkovskis



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Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just re-read what Dykes' book ITA says about a returning with fitness or usefulness and a returning with corruption or destruction (p.176-179). I think a returning with usefulness is a relative thing and not sure whether it acts the way the book suggests. My understanding (based on my experience) is that first of all such a bad manager spoils the business and what is left is returned to the sending planet to handle as it is.
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's experience that counts, especially since the 'old and wise ones' don't always seem to agree on things anyhow. On the other hand, people's experience often varies, so what to do?

I'd like to post a variation on the opening question of this thread:
do cadent planets in their own domicile need to be safed by other planets?
In your experience...
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Janis Valkovskis



Joined: 03 Jun 2010
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Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd like to post a variation on the opening question of this thread:
do cadent planets in their own domicile need to be safed by other planets?
In your experience...


Everything, undoubtedly, is relative and there are no strict rules which fit every and all situations because astrology is an art rather than a science (where one can repeat an experiment by applying one and the same rules). I once tried to develop a system (a hierarchy) of astrological testimonies which can be applied to any chart to produce a correct reading (my experience is mainly based on soccer charts). But it was a futile business. You should device new and new rules to force to work those already observed, then again and again, and you can never break that vicious circle.

As a rough guidance to determine the ability (strength) of a planet to act, I count 85-90% of its accidental placement (place in a figure, relation to the Sun, all kind of receptions, aspects, etc., etc.) and 10-15% of its essential quality. To determine the quality of action (the way how the desired outcome can be achieved) I use 50% of a planet's essential quality and 50% of its accidental placement. Regardless of a planet's essential dignities, also the houses it is in or rules have their own meaning. If the meaning of the relevant house (in the context of the chart) is bad, it leaves its imprints on the quality of the planet's action. One cannot expect good fruit from a bad tree.

My understanding is that cadent planets, even if they are in their own domicile or exaltation, need help from good and well-placed planets. Of course, one can be satisfied with middling results what are able to produce essentially strong but accidentally weak planets (and say that such planets work as they should) but it is always a bonus if you have a good, trustworthy and influential friend who is willing to help.
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, you've given me much food for thought so far, tnx.

I'd like to come back to a question Yuriy posted before, that went unnoticed:

Quote:
Its still not clear for me of how planets more active if in cadent but place of their joy. Like Mars in 6th, Saturn in 12th, Moon in 3rd.
In horary it was stated that position adds strength and importance. But how about "saving" and making more accidentally valid?


As far as I know and understand, a planet being in its joy is given more strength to act. Whether this is a good or a bad thing depends on the essential strength of said planet. If you have sect malefic Mars in Scorp in 6, with no harming aspects, than I don't expect bad things to come from that. But if he's the out of sect malefic, in Cancer or Taurus, and maybe in a harming aspect with the Moon, then it might cause physical problems of a Marsian nature, inflamations, cuts, operations, stuff like that.

Anyhow, since joy makes the planet stronger to act, it shouldn't need any angular planets, it can do good or harm all by itself. Is how I see it. I may be wrong though...
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Konrad



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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Guys, you've given me much food for thought so far, tnx.

I'd like to come back to a question Yuriy posted before, that went unnoticed:

Quote:
Its still not clear for me of how planets more active if in cadent but place of their joy. Like Mars in 6th, Saturn in 12th, Moon in 3rd.
In horary it was stated that position adds strength and importance. But how about "saving" and making more accidentally valid?


As far as I know and understand, a planet being in its joy is given more strength to act. Whether this is a good or a bad thing depends on the essential strength of said planet. If you have sect malefic Mars in Scorp in 6, with no harming aspects, than I don't expect bad things to come from that. But if he's the out of sect malefic, in Cancer or Taurus, and maybe in a harming aspect with the Moon, then it might cause physical problems of a Marsian nature, inflamations, cuts, operations, stuff like that.

Anyhow, since joy makes the planet stronger to act, it shouldn't need any angular planets, it can do good or harm all by itself. Is how I see it. I may be wrong though...


I wouldn't see a planet in its joy having more power to act necessarily, but more power to produce things according to its own nature. Whether this is good or bad for the native depends on the planet and its role in the life.
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Yuriy



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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for replies.
I've noticed both positive and negative outcomes from malefic in places of their joy.
Some person with Saturn in 12th and ruling MC (Aquarius) where Saturn in Taurus squares MC. So, she got education as construction engineer but didn't get any substantial experience after college. Finally switched to computer programmer profession and was quite successful.
Apparently Saturn's square blocked her from original construction field.
But strong Mercury in Virgo ruling her MC triplicity in nocturnal chart made her successful in analytical computer programmer's direction.
Though, I guess, Saturn in house of joy, in reception and square to MC helped to get stable career later.
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aglaya



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Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
I learned that ruler of the house in the house can realize the affairs of the house. I have Jupiter in Sag in the 6th. It also rules 10 and 2, and I have always been able to earn a living by working in my profession as a nurse. So although cadent it seems strong enough to act.


I actually find this to ve a great example of how cadent houses can express their apparently "negative" influence in a positive way. A certain characteristic of an astrological element should be examined thoroughly and by respecting all of its characteristics. And,in my opinion, this doesn't apply only to cadent houses but also to "malefic" planets, stressful aspect etc.
In different types of chart delineations, we concentrate on the most important value of a certain element however, in very detailed analysis, such a the delineation of a Natal chart, we need to respect all of its meanings. Obviously, the cadency supports certain inactivity and is often assigned a few negative meanings but, without cadent houses we'd have no nurses to take care of the patients, we'd have no hospitals, no spirituality, no literature, no buyers and clients... Such activities require the type of energy suggested by cadent houses! And, whilst it can be rather frustrating to have the ruler of your ambitions trapped inside a cadent house, we also need to keep in mind that a care-taker can only provide help inside the 6th and the 12th as that is where people who need help reside.
Like I said, there are many other examples in astrology where we need to adjust our approach to a specific element from different angles, each time respecting a specific quality of that same element. Pisces, for instance, is fruitful sign and, having Venus there can sometimes be very good in a chart of an artist however, if that artist wants to be be a singer then we have a problem since Pisces is also a mute sign. Due to its double-bodied nature, Gemini can sometimes suggest multiplicity however, it can also suggest barrenness.

Cadent houses don't necessarily stand as blockages; depending on the aspects and the rest of the chart, they are sometimes simply the indicators od the type of the surrounding that the Querent is most likely to have or the type of activities that might be important in their life. If someone wants to be a monk whi dedicates his life to meditation, spirituality and search of the higher knowledge then, we can'rt really expect his chart to have prominent angles, can we? But, he will still enjoy his cadent life.
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hervaro



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Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I recently have read (don't remember where, my Mercury is in cadent 12th, lol (it may well have been here on the forum!)), the so called "weakness" of cadent planets has a lot to do with diversity and lack of consistency. Cadent planets are not per se weak, but, er..., trying to multitask as it were. No gush of action in one direction here, as in the pivots, no result built up by consistency as in the succedent houses, but a lot of diversity and therefore splintered energy...

But..., as in traditional Feng Shui is taught, one has to USE the available, or "given" qualities, to make them work! Meaning, using Jupiter ruling 2nd house and placed in the cadent 9th for study and practice of spirituality or higher knowledge or travelling abroad, his so-called weakness by house-placement would be redeemed by Jupiter being assigned a job he loves/needs to do!

As I understand this, it amounts to "humouring" the planetary spirit for the task he's given in the natal chart; he/it/she will then be happy, and "perform"...

Cool
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libra_rising



Joined: 23 Nov 2014
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
I wouldn't see a planet in its joy having more power to act necessarily, but more power to produce things according to its own nature. Whether this is good or bad for the native depends on the planet and its role in the life.


I think that is a very neat answer and I agree with it. Another thing I think that's important to bring up about joys in cadent houses is that cadent houses can allow malefics to run amuck, which is probably why the malefics joy there in the first place. Saturn joys in the 12th because he is free to cause mischief unhampered, Mars joys in the 6th so he can beat his workers/slaves to produce more (wealth) for him. The Sun can be malefic and joys in the 9th house by spreading belief in himself all over/be boastful/possess a sense of superiority.

My Sun is peregrine in the sign of Gemini, but it placed in the Sun's joy of the 9th house. Some people have interpreted that as the source for my "strength," but I've always disagreed with that. My Sun receives trines from angular Libra Jupiter+Saturn placed in 1st house. Exalted Saturn does give my low powered Sun a lot of backbone where I exhibit some strong leadership qualities, but I'm not a Sun person. If anything, I'm rather anti-Sun and cannot stand those who are Sun-like in personality (managerial, showy, bossy, egotistical, prideful, etc.) But that's because I have exalted Saturn doing something drastic to my Sun and coloring the Sun to take on more Saturnine qualities. However, having the Sun in its joy is a blessing, as I've always believed in myself and so have strangers who have often taken a liking to me (for no apparent reason).
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