skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

hour ruler falure twice

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:09 pm    Post subject: hour ruler falure twice Reply with quote

A client has asked me the same question twice and I have rejected it on grounds of not meeting the hour ruler conditions. The first time was yesterday and there was no condition where hour ruler met the terms to be radical. There was also a void of course Moon. I asked the client who came to my home in person to phone me back tomorrow any time he felt it. He phoned tonight at 5.20 and the same hour ruler problem. The hour ruler was the Moon with Leo rising. Lily says, If Moon were the hour ruler and
Cancer Scorpio Pisces Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn rising it would be radical. Any ascendant when its ruler is in the same triplicity as the Moon. ASC ruler Sun is in Cap. Moon is in Cancer.

I will phone the client and ask him to choose another moment.
This is quite embarrassing as the question he asked is very legitimate.

This has happened with the same client quite a number of times.

Has anyone had this experience?

Our good member here Andrew Bevan always ensures the hour ruler terms are followed. Perhaps Andrew can give advice here.

Stan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, stanstar!

I would never argue with Andrew's opinion Smile and, I'm just as eager as you to hear if he has got anything to add to this.
Personally, however, I have had successful attempts of delineating technically non-radical chart. But, as you know, a Horary chart includes the Astrologer into the picture and I don't really find it surprising that these charts were capable of delivering enough informations that allowed me to create a sound and useful judgement. And, it was actually only after the judgement was made that i noticed the mismatch between the Asc and hour ruler.
But, I'd say that it is normal (again, Andrew might disagree Smile ) - Horary charts, due their very specific nature, have a way of communicating with the astrologer - some of the technical elements might not be entirely satisfactory but, as long as the overall impression makes me believe that the chart is radical, I keep it. To explain this a little better - unless I had a very late Asc or a badly damaged Moon (say, the Moon in Via Combusta) that would, most likely, make me re-consider the whole thing, I would still try to see as to what the chart has got to say. Primarily, I would concentrate onto the main significators. All three charts that I mentioned earlier, offered an abundance of clear signs and precise descriptions. If the main significators describe the main participants correctly and if the Querent can confirm that the placement of the planets can and their separating aspects describe the past events properly, then I'd generally say that it is a "radical" chart.

I'll use a simple example- if the Querent says that her husband has left her recently and moved in with another woman, and the chart assigns them adequate rulers separating from an opposition and puts the Quesited's ruler in a conjunction with another planet, I would say that the chart is ok. I would find it very hard to dismiss a chart that is so obviously descriptive of the situation.

For what it's worth, a VOC Moon or even a late Ascendant (should other signs in the chart say that it is descriptive of the situation) could mean simply that the matter has been closed and that no further activity is to be expected.

Like I said, it's a simple and made-up example; in reality, many other factors would also be included and double-checked but, I guess you get my point. Some astrologers say that they know "when the chart is talking to them" and, as esoteric as it may sound Smile, we could probably say that my reasoning goes along the lines of that approach.

On the other, a few signs of no-radicality could, indeed, suggest that the chart is not fit to be judged in which case, it would be good to try to concentrate onto the potential reasons.

A common "cause" can be the Querent's non-willingness to use the astrological help in order to establish control over the situation.
The lack of honesty is another potential reason - maybe the Querent didn't provide correct informations (I would examine the placement of the Moon and the Querent's ruler in both charts and see where it went as that is most likely the area of the Querebnt's biggest concern. Does it fit the Question given to you by the Querent?).

However, it could have something to do with the wrong approach as well. About a year and a half ago, I had to answer a Question regarding health issues of a female person. She had been experiencing very disturbing health issue - partial hair loss. It had happened more than once and, despite multiple medical examinations and all sorts of tests, no one had been able to nail down the exact cause. On the other hand, she had been prescribed about a dozen of very suspicious medicines that she didn't tolerate well (for allergies, kidneys, ovaries) and diagnosed with at least as many equally suspicious health issues (lactose intolerance, skin disease, allergies, stress etc.) She wanted to know what it was and where to start looking for the answer. She was very sincere in her question and I knew from the earlier experiences, that she was very open towards astrological analysis. But, i got a non-radical chart with a very early Ascendant in two attempts. The charts simply went mute. It took me about a month to realise that it was actually me who had been making a mistake all that time - I should have used the time when she first noticed the symptoms to erect the chart, not the time of her Question. Even Lilly instructed us to do it that way. So,when I erected the third chart (for the time when she first noticed a patch of missing hair half a year earlier), I got a very talkative and readable chart that suggested that the problem was stemming from liver dysfunction. She visited another doctor who introduced her to herbal medicines (since the worst thing you can do to a liver that is not working properly is to attack it with even more chemicals) and, in about 5 months, they symptoms stopped. It took her another year to reach a stage where she can have a decent hair-style (fixed signs) but the problem itself was taken care of soon after the chart was delineated.

So, it is worth taking all possible reasons into consideration.

Do the charts that you erected even resemble the situation described by the Querent? Do you think that the moment of a relevant event should be used instead of the time of the Querent's question?

Cheers,

aglaya
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am trying to imagine William Lily sitting at his desk and after drawing a chart for a question his lordship the Duke of Bedford or some other dignitary asked him at that moment and telling his lordship he was unable to answer his question as the hour ruler wasn't performing as it might. I am however having difficulty in imagining him to ask the very busy Lord to come back sometime later to ask this very important question. It is quite conceivable that this could happen each time the question was asked. Imagine if the question was somewhat like. "My father is on his deathbed, should I do this and that without delay?" Lily's response, "Your Lordship the hour ruler is not conducive today as the hour ruler is somewhat otherwise engaged. Please call in to my home tomorrow at some time and I will give it another try. Does anyone here see what I am getting at? I have sometimes in the past asked this same client to ask several times of the same question as the hour ruler was busy elsewhere.

Stan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stanstar wrote:
" Lily's response, "Your Lordship the hour ruler is not conducive today as the hour ruler is somewhat otherwise engaged. Please call in to my home tomorrow at some time and I will give it another try. Does anyone here see what I am getting at?


Lala Happy

I understand you! Personally, I'd say that you need to follow your inner impulse- your own astrological knowledge and experience have equipped you for such tasks. You have decided more than once to dismiss charts based on some obvious signs of non-radicality and it was certainly the best choice.
However, I find this very interesting:

Quote:
This has happened with the same client quite a number of times.


I would say that this isn't just a pure coincidence.

Cheers,

aglaya
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same client once asked me to tell him when he was going to die. I tried to disuade him but he insisted after a long negotiation with him for hours. I told him I wasn't that sure that the horary would be adequate for that purpose and that his birth chart might be the best way to determine it. Even then I am not to this day sure that is possible. However I did attempt the task and used his birth chart and told him that he would live until he was 93. He came to me a week later and told me that he had paid an astrologer he found on the internet and that astrologer told him the date and that year he would have been 93 yrs of age. I told him I could have given him that same date but didn't think he wanted an exact date. So, he went behind my back and paid for another astrologer to give him a second opinion. I will admit that it is entirely possible that he has already paid an astrologer on the internet for answering the same question. Aglaya does that sound anything like you were wondering?

Stan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is interesting to look at the birth charts of famous people and check when they died and look at their charts. I cannot at the moment who the famous astrologer was who did a lecture at the Edinburgh Astrology Group years ago who showed that Princess Diana's chart did show her death by looking at the 8th house ruler and working out the death in Paris. It may have been Noel Tyl or Bob Zoller. Anyways, after that lecture I looked at my father's chart, my mother's and my daughter's who had all passed away and it did not co-incide at all. I studied loads of famous people as any of us can and you will find this is not an easy thing to do. John Frawley has indicated I think the same method but I don't think it is useful. Prove me wrong with 10 famous peoples charts.

Stan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stanstar wrote:
. Aglaya does that sound anything like you were wondering?

Stan


Pretty much, actually! Thumbs up
I believe that somewhere on the website (either here on forum or in the articles section) Deb explains a very similar situation that happened when a journalist on a "secret" mission approached her asking for a Horary chart whilst, in reality, his mission was to "check whether Astrology works".

If the man from your example had approached me, I would have probably refused him (that, of course, has got more to do with the moral issues which I tend to call simply "common sense"). However, under the same circumstances and given that I decide to cast the chart after all, I would not be surprised to see a warning for at least one reason- me not feeling comfortable delivering the asnwer to such a question and the Querent not being sincere enough.
But, in reality, I would probably sent him to another astrologer who is willing to cast such charts. (It's easy to say "You are most likely see 100 candles on your birthday cake" but, what if the answer is "You're going to die next year!"?)

But, technically speaking, any "hidden agenda" can be the cause. My friend had a similar case a few years ago - a woman repeatedly came to her office to ask "Is my brother going to separate from his wife?". The charts were non radical and unreadable. She insisted that she was worried about her brother "because he is constantly fighting with his wife and, being attached to him, she can't stand the pain any more". After a few unsuccessful attempts of trying to get a radical chart, my friend focused onto the placement of the Querent's ruler in the non-radical charts and concluded that the Querent was most likely interested in her own financial situation. The Querent later confessed that her brother's marriage was actually in a very good shape however, she didn't like the fact that his wife, in case of a divorce, gets a huge part of their family inheritance. What the Querent actually wanted to know was whether her family savings and land were safe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4673
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
Thank you for notifying me about this discussion. When there is a lack of radicality, it like a piano out of tune and performance may be distorted. Some times the querent isn't asking for the right reasons, or there is something unhappy or dissatisfactory about the outfall. Things aren't working propperly.

I notice I was dealing with a horary chart of my own at about the same time. Your chart appears to be cast for 17.20 GMT, Edinburgh, Stanstar, with the ascendant approx 9LE07 and the planetary hour late in the Moon, while I had got chart at 18.52 CST, which gave the Asc 25LE57 and the hour of Jupiter. As you say, your chart is not radical - unless you say that the Moon is in the same sign as the radical ascendant, but the Moon is not in the 1st house or in aspect with the ascendant - so you might be inclined to give it a 12th house meaning.

The chart I was reading half an hour later in Norway was radical by triplicity, since Jupiter ruled the fire signs by night - but this was not so much my concern, although the advice I offered the querent turned out to be the same as she was receiving from her lawyer. The question I had been asked to comment on were the prospects of a meeting with an adversary she had been battling with the last 2 years. And this has really been a story of postphonings and delays. The Moon in this chart is moving from the inconjunct of Neptune to the opposition of Mercury, so the motion is from confusion to diagreement, and from Oslo the significators were cadent, so it would be impossible to see the querent gaining from this meeting - but that her opponent only wanted to look her in the cards and issue new delays.

When a significator is in the 12th house, the contract of radicality as exampled in your chart, Stanstar, then often the querent is turned in on him or herself in a detour of personal learning or development. This might involve putting up with unfavourable conditions for mean time.

I am a bit pressed for time and have to drop the matter here now, but I hope this gives you some sort of clue.
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Deb's certificate course she taught that it is a good thing to have the hour ruler in synch with the ascendant or L1, but not necessarily a deal breaker if it's not. She also said, as I recall, that having hour agreement generally means that the querent gets what they want. (Deb, forgive me if I've mangled what you intended to communicate.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stanstar wrote:
I am trying to imagine William Lily sitting at his desk and after drawing a chart for a question his lordship the Duke of Bedford or some other dignitary asked him at that moment and telling his lordship he was unable to answer his question as the hour ruler wasn't performing as it might.



The evidence would appear to suggest that this scenario would never have happened. In an analysis of the charts in CA, Lee Lehman showed (The Martial Art of Horary Astrology, page 26) that out of 35 example, only 10 match the planetary hour/ascendant criterion. If you work out what might be expected statistically by chance, then about a quarter of charts, 9 out of 35, would meet this criterion. Lehman concludes that, "In plain English, this translates to mean that Lilly ignored these considerations as an indication that he shouldn't read the chart."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it is simply a case of Lilly ignoring those considerations. The way I understand the matter of radicality, based on various texts, is that the hour-ruler check is a way to confirm radicality if there is a reason to doubt it. It is not to disprove radicality if there is no reason to doubt it. So we don't need to have planetary hour ruler agreement if there are other ways to see that the question is sincere and the chart is descriptive or makes a connection to a relevant element of the querent's nativity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated