Can this translation of light prohibit perfection?

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First off, this is a personal horary. I asked, "Will J.S. and I become involved in a romantic relationship?"

I am a woman, the quesited is male. We are signified by Venus (L1) and Mars (L7). We are in mutual reception by house and exaltation and therefore accidentally dignify each other.

Venus applies to Mars by square. Currently Mars is slowing down and will retrograde to mutually apply to the square before the two planets meet. I think this shows an increase in desire, although he's already pretty fond of Venus (Venus being in his exaltation, plus Mars is in the first house, therefore "coming to" me).

So, basically this is square+reception, which means possibly we will get into a relationship, but there will be frustrations. The main frustration is that my feelings for him just started right before I moved to a different state to be nearer to my family. You can see this by the Moon's movement: Her previous aspect was an opposition to Jupiter as she entered the 4th house of home and family.

This moon's future contacts also show possible frustration, but also support the connection between Mars and Venus at the same time. First, Moon sextiles Saturn (probably representing my father, who I have moved in with, but also ruler of my 5th house of romance, representing obstacles/limitations generally in love life I guess). Then Moon proceeds to connect Venus, Fortuna, and Mars. So the moon, as the teller of the "story," seems to say that we are both strongly interested, and there is a strong possibility of a union, but there is no guarantee here because of the frustration of Saturn. Fortuna probably implies that this would be a fortunate union if it did take place?

Anyway, what I'd really like input on is this:

You see that Sun is separating from Mars. It has changed signs and while still in orb from Mars it has begun applying to Jupiter. Sun will complete its translation of light between Mars and Jupiter before Mars and Venus will meet up.

Does this mean Sun prohibits??? Can a translation of light be a form of prohibition?

Since Sun has to change signs in order to complete the translation of light, it may not be able to complete anyway. I would say that SUn here is representing the quesited, his "animal self," or, in other words, he has a physical attraction to someone which was recently sparked. Since SUn applies to a retrograde planet, and retro planets often symbolize an ex returning, I'm assuming some feelings for an ex have been re-ignited for him. But in order for those feelings to come to anything, Sun has to change signs from Aquarius to Pisces: in other words, the Sun has to become more attractive to Jupiter. Jupiter and Sun both want to connect (shown by the Jupiter Rx mutually applying), but the sign-changing shows something that will have to happen for the connection to take place, and that would be that Jupiter needs Sun to become more appealing. As it is, it doesn't look like it would necessarily be a good connection (not as good as the connection Venus and Mars would make) but still, the chart is showing that it's on the sidelines as a possibility.

Has anyone ever seen a translation of light be a form of prohibition?

Even if translation of light *can* prohibit, it seems uncertain here whether or not Sun has the ability to complete the translation of light.

kind of a complicated chart. :???: No firm answers.

On a personal level, I always feel better knowing that my quesited at least returns my feelings. :brows I'm always losing my heart or my keys.
Gabby

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Hi, gab!
Sun will complete its translation of light between Mars and Jupiter before Mars and Venus will meet up.
In terms of this, we could also say that the Moon is prohibiting the application by applying to Venus before Venus gets to Mars, couldn't we?! :)

But, what you're looking for is not a TOL, it's an application and that application will perfect. The Sun connecting Mars with another planet is surely descriptive of an activity but it is hardly affecting the application. As far as I know, no traditional authority suggests that a planet separating from one of the significators and applying to another planet can cause prohibition (I may be wrong, 'tho!).

Personally, I would be much more concerned with the fact that the Quesited's ruler will receive the application of Venus in retrograde motion.

aglaya

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A Planet that is slow in motion, prolongs the thing questited after, so that it's hardly performed; the nautre of the Signe wherein the Planet is, doth herein much advantage the judgment.
--Lilly

I do think it shows difficulty though. Also because we are both in cardinal signs, not sure if we have the endurance to see this out, to get past the difficulties presented by square and by Saturn's influence.

I didn't ask if moon interfered because I read somewhere that she rarely does. ? Maybe because she moves so quickly some astrologers don't consider her movements to cause interference? (I get interference, prohibition, and frustration confused so excuse me also if I've used them incorrectly) :-T

I think we probably will not be in a relationship.

We did see each other once (reconnect) since I cast this chart, so retro motion could be showing that, but also I think it shows he'd be slow to act or pursue.

It's just confusing because mutual application is also supposed to be a good thing.

For anyone who pays attention to modern planets, Uranus is on descendant and Pluto on I.c. Uranus? sudden changes to seventh house matters. Pluto, great deal of transformation in moving home.

I have no idea why Jupiter is up on the m.c. [/quote]
Gabby

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gabkins wrote:
I didn't ask if moon interfered because I read somewhere that she rarely does. ?
I wouldn't treat it is as an obstacle, either. Obviously, in some very specific questions, it could be examined differently (I'll use a trivial example: Is he going back to his wife? or in situations where a strong influence of a mother type figure is expected). I only gave it as an example of a bodily aspect that will take place even before the "TOL" that you, obviously, decided to dismiss. The Sun applying to another planet after leaving the ruler of the Quesited looks like a much less important factor. The truth is- planets often start applying to other planets immediately after their last separation but, we don't generally focus on them in this manner. Like I said, I can't recall any traditional source who advised us to see this as a sign of a prohibition. Imagine a woman who has recently left her husband and is about to start a relationship with another man- her ruler is leaving the ruler of her husband and applying to the ruler of her new sweetheart. Technically, she is translating the light from her husband to her lover which, on a deeper level, actually makes much sense - her love life is changing direction and she is about to experience the same type of a relationship that she had with her ex with someone new - but, in reality, it is her who is about to become engaged in a relationship with someone else, not her ex. I hope this makes sense.

What you're looking for is the future movement of the main significators, not that of the planets who have already separated from them.
I have no idea why Jupiter is up on the m.c.
Jupiter is pushed into a potent corner which obviously makes it influential. It is retrograde (going back), it rules the 3rd (movement, education...) and 6th (health, irregular jobs/incomes, people who need or help/services etc.), it is placed near the point of its exaltation in Cancer (home, tradition, family) and on the cusp that naturally rules one of the parents. In addition, it is aspecting the Sun, the natural ruler of fathers, who is inside the 6th.

You're currently going through a huge transformation and it is expected that you find many testimonies of the current circumstances in a chart. More se because the movement actually affects your possibility to establish a relationship with someone whom you have had to leave behind.
The application of the Moon to your ruler inside the 4th (home) is also very indicative of the fact that the changes are about to happen on your side.
But isn't that mutual application?
The planets are definitely applying to each other however, their shape should not be forgotten as it directly affects the outcome. A retrograde planet is not the same as a healthy, strong planet, moving forward. The retrograde motion is surely saying something about the Quesited and his role in this situation. Whilst this motion can sometimes suggest the most obvious - going back (to something or someone, being preoccupied with the matters that belong to the past etc.) - it must not be forgotten that retrogradation is a form of accidental debility. A retrograde planet is moving in the wrong direction which is always followed by an appropriate symbolical meaning.

Cheers,

aglaya

Re: Can this translation of light prohibit perfection?

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gabkins wrote:Anyway, what I'd really like input on is this:

You see that Sun is separating from Mars. It has changed signs and while still in orb from Mars it has begun applying to Jupiter. Sun will complete its translation of light between Mars and Jupiter before Mars and Venus will meet up.

Does this mean Sun prohibits??? Can a translation of light be a form of prohibition?
[...]

Has anyone ever seen a translation of light be a form of prohibition?
Hi Gabby,

as the Sun is his co-significator, the Sun could be of interest. But we see the Sun translating the light of Mars, his mainsignificator, to Jupiter who is not involved into your horary question. As Mars is of singificance, I understand your question whether the Sun's translation of the light could prohibit the square of Venus to Mars.

We all agree that the Sun is in separation of Mars. So Mars is free to conjoin with or be conjoined by another planet, and Mars is free to aspect or be aspected by another planet. And I think it is quite obvious and to the best of my remembrance some authors stress this point too that, if there would be a conjunction or an aspect of another planet with Mars, before the trine of the Sun with Jupiter, the translation would be destroyed or not perfected.

But in your question, the translation is perfected. (Let's assume that the Sun's change of signs does not concern his separation from Mars; a problem could be that the Sun has left the signs in aspect and has entered into Pisces which is not be seen by Libra and thus not by Mars any longer; but as the Sun could be seen as separating from the antiscion of Mars in 2?33 of Pisces, let's assume the separation IS working.)

And if so, it is the translation of the light of Mars, that means he has given it, i.e. his light and his virtue, to Jupiter by the Sun's help. So by this 'loss' he has no light and virtue left for the square of Venus, which is indeed prohibited by the translation of the light from Mars to Jupiter by the Sun.

A really nice question, and I have to admit, that at first I was of the opposite opinion.

I'm sorry not having quoted your and Aglaya's judgements, but it was too fascinating to develop the answer to your technical question which seemed so 'wrong' at the first sight to me; but it is not at all! :D

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Thanks to aglaya and Johannes, though now I'm no less confused. ;)

Johannes, what made you change your stance?

Aglaya, regarding Mars being Rx... again I think you're right that it shows debility. He's moving very slowly, and is going to change direction, so even though he's in an angular house he's not going to be making any quick advances here. Even if he wanted to take action, he might not be sure how to go about it since I've just moved away and neither of us have openly spoken about having romantic feelings for the other. I've reached out to him once when I cast this chart and he was receptive, we had a really great lunch and conversation a little over a week ago, but it doesn't seem like he's pursuing me or anything and I'm okay with that. I feel lovingly towards him and the feeling itself is very nice and sweet. I'm sure we'll see each other again many times in the future, and I'll just follow my feelings as we encounter each other. I'd rather let things evolve naturally anyway than try to force something.

I don't think his planet being retrograde means he'd be a bad partner (some of the things I've read about retrograde planets make it sound like the person is really horrible), but just to signify a possible uncertainty or reluctance on his part and/or a slowness to act.

I also think the mutual application is still important. It does show we're both interested.

Also, when he turns retro he will be moving back into the first house, instead of out of it. He'll be getting closer to the ascendant, showing (I think) an increased desire to know me better as a person. In real life, outside of the horary, that is definitely what it seems like, even if he is simultaneously reluctant to act, he definitely seems very interested in me as a person (he's very focused and intent on me, interested in my thoughts and feelings).


Still, if I were doing this reading for someone else, I would tell them that there are three ways this chart shows a *possible* perfection of the matter:

1. Querent and quesited apply to each other by square, in mutual reception, from angular houses. Their mutual reception should give each other enough dignity to complete the task, they obviously both are interested in the other, and though Mars is debilitated via Rx he is also accidentally dignified via conjunction to the NN (I think some see nn as sometimes a debility, magnifying a malefic's "maleficness," but it's hard for me to see the nn that way so I don't read it that way myself). So they will perfect an aspect to each other and seem to have the power to do so, but the aspect they will perfect is a square AND SO if querent and quesited do get together it will be with much difficulty and obstacle.

2. The quesited is placed in the first house, therefore "he comes to you, he is yours." My understanding also is that for this to serve as perfection the Moon must also translate light between the querent and quesited, which she does in this chart, though she must make contact with Saturn first, so again we have LIMITATIONS, OBSTACLES. The aspect she makes with Mars as she translates his light to Venus is a square aspect, again reinforcing the frustrations querent and quesited would have to deal with in order to get together.

3. And of course mutual reception is sometimes deemed enough for a possible perfection, though I personally think that's iffy in this chart.



So, already, even without figuring in the possible prohibition from Sun translating light from Mars to Jupiter, we have our answer: the union is possible, though with a great deal of difficulty and frustration.

Even if a translation of light could prohibit, it is uncertain (to me at least) if Sun has what it takes to get the job done.

This chart is not radical, though I read it anyway as it definitely seems to describe the scenario (Moon even shows that I have moved back home), but Libra rises with is the sign most associated with relationships, which seems fitting, and Venus in Capricorn here is in partile conjunction with my natal moon. So the chart seems to have relevance. In addition, the quesited is 27 years old and his significator, Mars is at 27'27" Libra.




I know romance horaries are probably annoying to some people, and there doesn't seem to be much interest here on the forum, but I will post in the future and update on the situation.
Gabby

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gabkins wrote: Aglaya, regarding Mars being Rx... again I think you're right that it shows debility....

I don't think his planet being retrograde means he'd be a bad partner (some of the things I've read about retrograde planets make it sound like the person is really horrible), but just to signify a possible uncertainty or reluctance on his part and/or a slowness to act.

Hi, again, gab!

I wouldn't say that the retrograde motion is suggesting that he is a bad person - retrogradation is only temporary and I would expect it to say more about the phase that he is currently going through or his impulses when it comes to the matters captured by the question rather than to describe his character.
In order to conclude that he is potentially a bad partner or a bad person, I'd say that we need to have a very weak planet suffering from different negative influences.

However, this motion is worth paying attention to. Lilly actually mentions retrograde motion of one of the main significators in his Aphorisms and Considerations for Better Judgement:

13. A Retrograde Planet, or one in his first station, Significator in Question, denotes ill in the Question, discord and much contradiction.

36. In any Question, see if an Infortune aspect your Significator, and whether they be both Peregrine, Retrograde, Cadent, or in Signes contrary to their owne nature, it may then be doubted they inferre such a mischiefe in the question, as is inevitable, according to naturall causes.
Cheers,

aglaya

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"Ill in the question" means the chart will be difficult to read? Or means that the outcome of the situation asked about will not be good?

I don't understand what the second quote means either. ???
Gabby

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Firstly, I think that it is always wise to keep in mind that most astrologers nowadays tend to be much more flexible when it comes to the influence of the so called malefics than traditional authorities. We don't necessarily treat Mars and Saturn as planets of ill nature by default any more. Obviously, the term "infortunes" does not apply only to the malefcis as Lilly suggests that even Fortunes (Venus, Jupiter), "may be Infortunes when they are Lords of 8th, 12th and 6th".
Like I said, most astrologers apply some of the aforementioned rules lightly. However, I would say that the key to understanding the wrong motion of a relevant planet and her potential influence onto the situation is actually hiding in "discord and much contradiction" and "according to naturall causes". A retrograde planet is not necessarily saying that you are interested in a bad person or someone with chronically twisted martian characteristics. However, the retrogradation is unnatural movement and it is most likely suggesting that something is out of order. In order to unravel the possible effects of this state, I'd say that we alwys need to start with the analysis of that very planet. The things don't just fall from the sky- people interact and mutually affect a specific situation; what is about to happen is, to a great extent, the result of the activities of the participants. You need to put together your impressions about the person ruled by Mars based on your realistic observations (in short- what you know about him) and compare them to the symbolism of the planet assign to him in this chart. Obviously, the symbolism of the house in which it is placed and the aspects that t receives will add additional meanings. From there, you can try to unravel the potential outcome. "According to natural causes" - that is basically it, the nature of the planet and its current shape affect the behaviour of the person described by that planet and his reactions are expected to be of that same nature- retrograde, fallen Mars inside the 1st.
You are not looking for a yes or no answer in this chart, you are being given a complete overview of the situation that helps you understand the motives and the consequences of certain activities.
The motion itself does stand for a warning, of course, but we can't use it to siply conclude that he is not interested in you when his ruler is so obviously expressing his interest through the placement inside the rulership of Venus. But, the motion in which he will receive your application is important as it suggests there there could be something wrong about his approach or his role in this.

I hope this helps,

aglaya

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But, the motion in which he will receive your application is important as it suggests there there could be something wrong about his approach or his role in this.
:) thanks, Aglaya, that makes a lot of sense. He is not pursuing me, so that would be a wrong approach. ;) Consequently, I was looking at Deb Houlding's definition page for retrogradation on this site and many of the references to Lilly are about the matter concluding suddenly and in unexpected ways. Our last meeting def had an unexpected element, but the matter itself has not concluded suddenly, and my initial feeling was that the slow movement of mars indicated just that: slowness. And/or indecision. I have just moved to a different state, so he may be reluctant for that reason in addition to possible others.
Gabby

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Hi Gaby,

I haven't followed the full details of this thread closely, but according to traditional definitions I can't see any prohibition of the aspect between Mars and Venus. If Mars is stationing and turning direct as you say, then no planet but the Moon interposes between the perfection of the aspect between Mars and Venus. The reason why this is not a prohibition is that the application between Mars and Venus will continue and perfect after the Moon has moved on from Venus. So whatever the Moon signifies will only interrupt the matter initially, but then there is occasion for the matter to perfect after this Moon matter has been resolved. However, since the Moon rules the 10th which has Jupiter close to the cusp, Jupiter appears to be signifying something or someone relevant. By itself, that shouldn't be a problem, but combined with this translation of light you have noticed between Mars and Jupiter, it does seem that something else is or has been going on in the background. Hopefully you are able to place that and make sense of it, because it seems to be an important element of the horary judgement.

I mainly wanted to comment on the technical definition of prohibition. Let's say, for the sake of an example, that the positions of Mars and the Moon were interchanged, and it was the Moon that you wanted to see being joined by aspect to Venus, but you have Mars closer to making a conjunction with Venus by retrograde motion - that would be a case of Mars prohibiting the application of the Moon. The reason is that Mars, by being closer to Venus in the horary, has the more immediate impression on Venus, at least until the time that its own aspect has perfected and begins to separate. There is no time in which the Moon moves towards or over Venus in which Venus is free from the increasing influence of Mars, so the Moon is sort of "locked out" by the fact that Venus is already under the influence of Mars. That (in my own words) is how I understand the principle to be taught and illustrated by traditional authors such as Sahl, Bonatti and Schoener. It shows prohibition to be something that is usually a more of hindrance to quicker-moving inferior planets than it is to slower moving superior planets, which have the opportunity to perfect their own aspect after the interruption of whatever is being signified by the lighter planet has been resolved.