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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Evidence that chart rectification works
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1452

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

My birth time might be around here somewhere, but I don't want it publicized because of the potential for identity theft. Yeah it's like getting hit by lightning, but why take the chance? Someone several years ago got a birth time for me pretty close to the birth certificate time using the Tritune of Hermes, a method that requires no events in the life.


Hi Tom,

Can you explain what you mean?

The Trutine of Hermes is only meant to find the sign of the ascendant, not the degree position. Was this used alongside another technique? Perhaps a primary direction? Or using the almuten of the prenatal syzygy (I think it has a proper name but I can't remember what that is)?

I am a Scorpio Rising, and the trutine of hermes gives me Scorpio Rising as well which I always found interesting even if I am seriously doubtful about why it could work.
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Zagata



Joined: 15 Dec 2011
Posts: 89

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

What a great and crucial topic. I almost missed it because strangely enough it is in the Philosophy section. Confused

I am very surprised that none of you have mentioned the commendable efforts of Regulus Astrology and his outstanding and one of a kind book "A Rectification Manual", which is based on medieval astrological sources and has made some fascinating discoveries.

I myself have come up with a system for rectification based on lots of astrological sources, overwhelmingly ancient.

While I am not willing to discuss the intricacies of my system, if there is a genuine interest in this, I could share say one result from it, namely the nativity of a very famous person (American) with a totally unknown time, which I rectified from scratch and to the minute last year.
For the record and as of today - the 5th of March 2014, that person's minute of birth has not been officially given, so one could say it is still an open case.

Just to be clear, I am not interested in "proving" the Queen of the sciences, thus, at this point in time, I have neither the inclination nor the time in participating in any testing of further charts.
Rectifying from scratch is the most time consuming effort of all. It is also expensive. Generally in the West a rectification costs between $150-300 and we are talking about a range of some hours and NOT from scratch! So you can do the math how much it would cost. In fact few Astrology practitioners offer rectification from scratch.

The result of the chart I have rectified, namely the official time of birth, when/if publicly announced, will speak for itself, allowing of course for a few minutes of difference due to time keeping and the human factor.

Plus, I have some other charts of famous individuals that I have rectified from scratch and to the minute and am following for my private interests and gratification whether the birth certificates will be quoted. Smile
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the experiment mentioned within this thread ever take place? Smile
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Ganglion



Joined: 29 Jan 2016
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?board=english_3 some Astrodienst forum members do a weekly rectification test.

The idea is to predict the BC birth-time before the municipal archive could respond to your request. For this reason the to be rectified person and a list of events is published Friday evening, just after the municipal archive is closed. Master recritifier Isaac Starkman was somehow handicapped in time, as the game started on his wholly Sabbath. But maybe meditation can also contribute to it. G'd only knows.

The last candidate was Donner, André
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Donner,_Andr%C3%A9
Quote:
Dutch jurist, judge, professor in Law and the second President of the European Court of Justice

Source Notes
Svi retrieved the BC from the municipal archive of Rotterdam. He was born on 15 January 1918, thus not 15 June 1918 as the Wikipedia wrongly assumes. The BC will published on 2 February around 9 GMT for a rectifying experiment.
.

I hope more persons than Isaac Starkman and Afternoon Sun are willing to test their skills.


Last edited by Ganglion on Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi ganglion

welcome to skyscript!

thanks for pointing this out to us here... i was never able to get the priviledge of posting at astro.com for whatever reason, so i am not going to bother trying now!! at any rate, it would be cool to do these games here as i would enjoy getting involved... is there any way you can keep us up to date on the challenge and the results afterwards?

fwiw - isaac starkman uses a rectification program he owns and sells called polaris... now, maybe he does some rectification too, but so far as i know it is all computer driven... i don't know the poster afternoon sun...

ps - regarding your post on astro forum jan 31st,
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1276795681/360

this post http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8039&start=0
was not to my knowledge started by geoffrey dean.... different geoffrey i believe..
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Ganglion



Joined: 29 Jan 2016
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi ganglion

welcome to skyscript!

thanks for pointing this out to us here... i was never able to get the priviledge of posting at astro.com for whatever reason, so i am not going to bother trying now!! at any rate, it would be cool to do these games here as i would enjoy getting involved... is there any way you can keep us up to date on the challenge and the results afterwards?


I will post the new candidates on Friday at the Discussion: Other branches of astrology part of the Astrodienst Forum.
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?board=english_3
as Alois Treindl asked me to do (at Reply #9).
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1453483727#9
Quote:
Re: Rectifying a chart candidate Anton van der Waa(ls)
« Reply #9 - on: 01.02.2016 at 12:30 [UT+0] »
Please, keep such rectification exercises out of the Astrodatabank board, in the future.

The best board will be 'other branches of astrology', in most cases, unless it is about an currently discusses public figure, which might go to the Mundane board.

Thank you.

No problem now, but I had earlier a stalking me troll problem with it.
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1276795681/360#365
Quote:


fwiw - isaac starkman uses a rectification program he owns and sells called polaris... now, maybe he does some rectification too, but so far as i know it is all computer driven... i don't know the poster afternoon sun...

Starkmans method is is based on the algorithms of
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1276795681/220#228
Quote:
Judgement depends both on collecting and technically analysing the facts, as well on intuition. But intuition is already involved in data collecting (which data to use) and even the mathematical algorithms applied (logicians and mathematicians also use intuition!).

Intuition gives astrologers freedom of choice, but can also lead to speculative reasoning or primary process associating. The kind of analogous reasoning like: I have seen this before in my practice (don't recall the exact case), so this must also be such a case. This could easily yield what I call As you like it astrology.

When scientists used that kind of reasoning, they would be debunked by colleagues.

But when a program consistently tries to follow the intuitions and experience of astrologers, there is less likelihood of error.

http://juanestadella.com/Predictive-Astrology-Juan-Estadella.pdf

But interpreting peeks found by programs still is needed.

Unexpectedly fitting peaks do exist I found out (using Regulus). But how to judge the just by chance produced peaks, from the real ones?
Quote:

ps - regarding your post on astro forum jan 31st,
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1276795681/360

this post http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8039&start=0
was not to my knowledge started by geoffrey dean.... different geoffrey i believe..

Oh, I maybe wrongly assumed it was Geoffrey Dean, as he was like me a sceptic, but open to any experimental test on astrology investigator.
Dr Geoffrey Dean & Research Sceptical of Astrology
http://www.astrologer.com/tests/deantest.htm
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ganglion,

people see what they want to see... a pick pocket thief sees others pockets and etc. etc.. if you are wanting to prove astrology is bogus, i am sure you will have plenty of help along the way!

rectification is probably the most difficult process astrologers can engage in.. some claim to be good at it, but so many variables exist, it is difficult to know how true that is without examining the data and input more closely... in these examples you are providing, am i correct in thinking - only a day chart is being provided, or a 24 hour window of time? this is different then providing a 2 hour or less window of time to go with a date of birth and another example of a different type rectification process that would be set in motion..

will you be providing a list of important events in the persons life as well, or is this something we have to come up with?

thanks -
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Ganglion



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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A list of events is provided, including the sources used.

Only the date of birth is given initially. The search span would be 24 hours.

The problem with a smaller search span (say 2 hours) is that the BC times are not that exact to let us decide on what is a hit or not. But if somebody postulates a time, say 3 hours away from the BC time, nobody would doubt to call this a miss.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ganglion,

okay, thanks... when you do this, i suggest you post the exercise on a new thread in the general astrology section of skyscript forum... hopefully some folks including myself will want to participate.. i might be limited by time constraints, but otherwise am interested in participating.. thanks..
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Ganglion



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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To prevent double bookkeeping the data are placed in the Other branches of astrology section of the Astrodienst forum.

The actual candidate is
Rectifying a chart candidate Fred Polak
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1455297280

Polak, Fred
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Polak%2C_Fred
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi ganglion,

thanks for sharing, even if you didn't start a new thread for this! you would get more interest in this if you did.. also, while this is related to the topic of this post, it is not philosophy we are talking here - but doing rectification work..

i am too busy to do any of this until early march... thanks..
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spock



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 51
Location: Evansville, Indiana

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
also, while this is related to the topic of this post, it is not philosophy we are talking here - but doing rectification work.

Doing rectification work, or at least talking about it, is in essence talking philosophy because it impinges on the question, is astrology valid? You're probably familiar with some form of this argument: Rectification is possible only if astrology can, even if only indirectly, predict or make sense of future developments. If a birth time is consistent with a particular set of future developments, knowing only those developments should in principle enable us to work back to that birth time. Successful rectification tends to validate astrology.
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Ganglion



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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spock wrote:
Successful rectification tends to validate astrology.


Yes, and for this reason it is important that rectifying experiments are done.

For me as a sceptic inquirer it is a way to test astrology (astrological claims) using statistics.

If only one astrologer can predict/reconstruct consequently and correctly against odds birth-times, his unique method /used algorithms makes without doubt a case for astrology.

Just as only one Newton or Einstein were needed to change the paradigms and status of natural science. Even if not all physicists were that brilliant. In the same token, only one effective astrologer could chance our perspective on astrology. And his students could learn/benefit from it.

For astrologers, the art of rectification is both a way to test and improve astrological techniques. A well rectified chart should explain astrological events better than an approximate chart that could have an incorrect rising sign (one third of Astrodienst according to forum member Dr.H. in a personal writing )

In my case, as an ADB-editor wanting to test astrology using statistics, it implies introducing uncertainty about the birth-time, and give rectifiers a chance tot guess the approximate BC time. Doing this using a 24 hours time-span seems to be (current state of the art) a mission impossible, but using an 8 hour time-span Isaac Starkman hit the chords.

Rectifying a chart candidate Eelco Van Kleffens
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1463854570
http://www.astro.com/wiki/astro-databank/index.php?title=Van_Kleffens,_Eelco&oldid=184995
Quote:

21 May 2016 Svi retrieved BC's from the municipal archive and uploaded it to Astrodienst. He made a +/- 4 hours mistake when entering the data, so the time span of this entry is from 2 PM to 10 PM for a rectifying experiment. This time we have no contest. Take your time to find out which planets should be found on the cusps.

30 May 2016: Starkman rectified to 16.55.28 LT (16.35.56 GMT) Asc 16Gem 35'.


This was a hit.

Please join the Viva la astrology / SAT "contest" in Discussion: Other branches of astrology
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?board=english_3

The most current Rectifying a chart candidate Willem de Sitter
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1466637562
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1466637562#13
Quote:
Thank you very much for the result and explanation. I have entered your expected time so that users can watch what Asc 26Aqu30' implies for the many documented events. The BC will be published in the fourth week of July.

A reply of Dr. H. is expected in the 3th week of July. I hope some more astrologers and amateurs like me will test their rectifying astrology software and skills on this interesting person..



And try to hit the chords like the ancients once did.

Henry Purcell: Strike The Viol (Christina Pluhar & L'Arpeggiata)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25xOdEkIRLg

http://opera.stanford.edu/Purcell/FairyQueen/libretto.html
Quote:
Trio: May the God of Wit inspire,
The Sacred Nine to bear a part;
And the Blessed Heavenly Quire,
Shew the utmost of their Art.
While Echo shall in sounds remote,
Repeat each Note,
Each Note, each Note.

Chorus: Now joyn your Warbling Voices all.
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Petr9



Joined: 30 May 2017
Posts: 22
Location: Prague, CZ

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean wrote:
One problem with Waybread's method #2 should be obvious...

The AA-rated database, is tremendously x:00, x:15, x:30, and x:45 heavy! ie. Even though AA-rated, pure mathematical probability informs us that they CAN NOT be correct. Real birthtimes do not congregate around even 15 minute intervals of time.

James


Larxene wrote:
@Atlantean:

Can someone get some summary statistics on the AA Astro-Databank charts? I might be able to do it if I know of a way to download all the data...


Hi James and Larxene,

I did a summary statistics on the cca 15.000 AA Astro-Databank birth time records and even the X:00; X:15; X:30; X:45 birth times are pretty disproportionate.

36% (!) of all AA-rated birth time records are X:00;
15% of AA-rated birth time records are X:30;
6% of AA-rated birth time records are X:15 and X:45;

Here is a quick list of the other birth times:

All AA: (15908)
===
X:00 (5755 / 36.18%)
X:01 (60 / 0.38%)
X:02 (41 / 0.26%)
X:03 (59 / 0.37%)
X:04 (49 / 0.31%)
X:05 (302 / 1.9%)
X:06 (48 / 0.3%)
X:07 (61 / 0.38%)
X:08 (59 / 0.37%)
X:09 (34 / 0.21%)
X:10 (510 / 3.21%)
X:11 (60 / 0.38%)
X:12 (74 / 0.47%)
X:13 (58 / 0.36%)
X:14 (60 / 0.38%)
X:15 (925 / 5.81%)
X:16 (43 / 0.27%)
X:17 (66 / 0.41%)
X:18 (72 / 0.45%)
X:19 (41 / 0.26%)
X:20 (506 / 3.18%)
X:21 (77 / 0.48%)
X:22 (71 / 0.45%)
X:23 (58 / 0.36%)
X:24 (54 / 0.34%)
X:25 (329 / 2.07%)
X:26 (43 / 0.27%)
X:27 (59 / 0.37%)
X:28 (67 / 0.42%)
X:29 (47 / 0.3%)
X:30 (2418 / 15.2%)
X:31 (73 / 0.46%)
X:32 (61 / 0.38%)
X:33 (53 / 0.33%)
X:34 (59 / 0.37%)
X:35 (305 / 1.92%)
X:36 (44 / 0.28%)
X:37 (70 / 0.44%)
X:38 (70 / 0.44%)
X:39 (28 / 0.18%)
X:40 (454 / 2.85%)
X:41 (47 / 0.3%)
X:42 (73 / 0.46%)
X:43 (73 / 0.46%)
X:44 (48 / 0.3%)
X:45 (953 / 5.99%)
X:46 (63 / 0.4%)
X:47 (49 / 0.31%)
X:48 (58 / 0.36%)
X:49 (45 / 0.28%)
X:50 (393 / 2.47%)
X:51 (90 / 0.57%)
X:52 (60 / 0.38%)
X:53 (55 / 0.35%)
X:54 (38 / 0.24%)
X:55 (282 / 1.77%)
X:56 (61 / 0.38%)
X:57 (58 / 0.36%)
X:58 (70 / 0.44%)
X:59 (69 / 0.43%)
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Last edited by Petr9 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks petr9.
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