I need a few alternate opinions on my chart.



I have the ruler of the 11th in the 12th; which Coley says

"...the native's hopes will often be frustrated...he meets with few friends to support him and many enemies to afflict him."

But I have the ruler of the 1st receiving the ruler of the 11th so "the danger will be somewhat mitigated"

If I'm correct, looking at my 11th Venus is there. I take that to further imply that I will actually make some worthwhile friends (of a Venusian nature?) while Mercury in the 11th shows indifferent, shifty friends.

Also, having the ruler of the 11th in a square to the ruler of the 1st doesn't bode well for friendships, but Saturn is received regardless.

My confusion comes from how all of these testimonies fit together. I'm having problems taking the parts and mixing them into a coherent whole. Saturn says pretty few friends, Venus promises a few good ones, Mercury says mutable friends (I think Lilly said that Mercury in the 11th shows "indifferent" friends).

Can I get a second opinion or two, or have I interpreted this correctly?


http://www.astro.com/tmpd/c8rnfilePOMe2 ... .gif?12731

sworm09 wrote:I need a few alternate opinions on my chart.



I have the ruler of the 11th in the 12th; which Coley says

"...the native's hopes will often be frustrated...he meets with few friends to support him and many enemies to afflict him."

But I have the ruler of the 1st receiving the ruler of the 11th so "the danger will be somewhat mitigated"

If I'm correct, looking at my 11th Venus is there. I take that to further imply that I will actually make some worthwhile friends (of a Venusian nature?) while Mercury in the 11th shows indifferent, shifty friends.

Also, having the ruler of the 11th in a square to the ruler of the 1st doesn't bode well for friendships, but Saturn is received regardless.

My confusion comes from how all of these testimonies fit together. I'm having problems taking the parts and mixing them into a coherent whole. Saturn says pretty few friends, Venus promises a few good ones, Mercury says mutable friends (I think Lilly said that Mercury in the 11th shows "indifferent" friends).

Can I get a second opinion or two, or have I interpreted this correctly?


http://www.astro.com/tmpd/c8rnfilePOMe2 ... .gif?12731

Hi there,

you can also consider the following:
- Saturn, ruler of the 11th is Combust. According to (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html), it may mean that you have some fears regarding that specific area of living. And it must be true, since you are asking for opinions exactly on that matter.
- However, Saturn in the 12th is in its joy by house, so it may mean that it is not so bad.

My main suggestion is to to a delineation starting for the sign of the 11th, considering its element and qualities (Cold and Dry). Then, who's the ruler of the 11th, and where he is. This means how that area of life will express in your "life". The essential dignity of Saturn should also be considered. Since he is peregrine, it may mean that it is a matter for which you have difficulties handling it.

Consider the combustion to the 11th ruler, and the house ruled by the Sun. That will mean what matters may be causing the "fear" or the "restrictions" regarding the number/quality of friends. House 6 may mean that something related to health or other house 6 matters.

Also, you could see the planets in the 11th and which houses they rule. They may mean the matters which are brought to expression by means of friendship. Technically, Mercury should be already in the 12th house (5 degree rule), so consider Venus. Traditionally, Uranus and Neptune are not used. Venus rules house 2 and 7 (7th, by being intersected), so the matters of that houses are expressed by means of friendship. Since Venus is peregrine, you should consider that the expression is not "fluid"..

Finally, consider that the friendship in the 11th house is usually considered more of a "social" friendship than a intimate friendship. Someone I know usually says that the friends who sees you on your pajamas is not the 11th..


Regards,
Jo?o Ventura

jventura wrote:

sworm09 wrote:I need a few alternate opinions on my chart.



I have the ruler of the 11th in the 12th; which Coley says

"...the native's hopes will often be frustrated...he meets with few friends to support him and many enemies to afflict him."

But I have the ruler of the 1st receiving the ruler of the 11th so "the danger will be somewhat mitigated"

If I'm correct, looking at my 11th Venus is there. I take that to further imply that I will actually make some worthwhile friends (of a Venusian nature?) while Mercury in the 11th shows indifferent, shifty friends.

Also, having the ruler of the 11th in a square to the ruler of the 1st doesn't bode well for friendships, but Saturn is received regardless.

My confusion comes from how all of these testimonies fit together. I'm having problems taking the parts and mixing them into a coherent whole. Saturn says pretty few friends, Venus promises a few good ones, Mercury says mutable friends (I think Lilly said that Mercury in the 11th shows "indifferent" friends).

Can I get a second opinion or two, or have I interpreted this correctly?


http://www.astro.com/tmpd/c8rnfilePOMe2 ... .gif?12731

Hi there,

you can also consider the following:
- Saturn, ruler of the 11th is Combust. According to (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html), it may mean that you have some fears regarding that specific area of living. And it must be true, since you are asking for opinions exactly on that matter.
- However, Saturn in the 12th is in its joy by house, so it may mean that it is not so bad.

My main suggestion is to to a delineation starting for the sign of the 11th, considering its element and qualities (Cold and Dry). Then, who's the ruler of the 11th, and where he is. This means how that area of life will express in your "life". The essential dignity of Saturn should also be considered. Since he is peregrine, it may mean that it is a matter for which you have difficulties handling it.

Consider the combustion to the 11th ruler, and the house ruled by the Sun. That will mean what matters may be causing the "fear" or the "restrictions" regarding the number/quality of friends. House 6 may mean that something related to health or other house 6 matters.

Also, you could see the planets in the 11th and which houses they rule. They may mean the matters which are brought to expression by means of friendship. Technically, Mercury should be already in the 12th house (5 degree rule), so consider Venus. Traditionally, Uranus and Neptune are not used. Venus rules house 2 and 7 (7th, by being intersected), so the matters of that houses are expressed by means of friendship. Since Venus is peregrine, you should consider that the expression is not "fluid"..

Finally, consider that the friendship in the 11th house is usually considered more of a "social" friendship than a intimate friendship. Someone I know usually says that the friends who sees you on your pajamas is not the 11th..


Regards,
Jo?o Ventura

Ok. Capricorn on the cusp of the 11th (Cold and Dry, Melancholic) easily describes my social life....it's pretty try and nonexistant. Saturn combust does indeed imply my social fear and his peregrine nature does describe how I feel utterly powerless to do anything about it.

Now the Sun is where I got confused for a second as I didn't understand how my social life could in anyway be overwhelmed by my health. Then I remember reading that ruler of the 6th in the 12th show diseases which rise from sorrow i.e. depression and anxiety. It also shows attacks from, as Coley says "base and unworthy" people. I think the only thing saving me from severe depression and social anxiety is the reception by Jupiter.

Finally you said something about the 11th house being more social. I would be looking at the 7th house for closer friendships, right? Well Venus being in the 11th kind of connects the two. That speaks specifically of me probably marrying someone who is a friend who is social and fun loving but it also speaks of aggravating friends who are only focused very little on me and are kind of unkind.

The other ruler of the 7th is poor Mercury in the 12th which seems to produce a buttload of enemies and contentions, but that sextile from Jupiter calms it down a bit.

hi sworn09 - i am not going to disagree with your view on your own life, but here are a few things i would say anyway, even if it doesn't answer your question as you may wish to receive it.

morin focuses first on planets in a house, before moving onto the house rulers.. the way i read your chart - venus and mercury are primarily in your 11th house. yes they are the 12th sign to the ascendant and all that, but i think the position of these 2 planets is generally favourable to the 11th. however they are under the domain of saturn for most astrologers, or uranus - regardless - other factors like sun/saturn conjunct in the 12th or 1st whole sign i read as more of a tendency towards being aloof and distant for any number of reasons. i think this has some impact on all your relationships in so far as the relationship of planets rising to the 1st and 7th house form a type of synergy. then their is moon in aries, a more independent moon position less interested in 'relating' so much as 'initiating' and moving forward in a particular manner that is more self centered generally.. but, the most important observation i would make on this chart is the opposition between mercury and mars. mercury is the 7th house ruler. in opposition to mars suggests some difficulty in relationships generally - however unintended - it is as if people can feel more intimidated or threatened by your manner for no real good reason. this in combo with the sun/saturn conjunction stacks the chart a certain way as i see it..

i am sure people who know you well appreciate you, but some or many might have difficulty getting to that point.. thus a comment that few friends- but good ones - makes sense to me.. however you get that by jigging the rulers of houses - that is what i get from this chart.

Hi James,

james_m wrote:the way i read your chart - venus and mercury are primarily in your 11th house. yes they are the 12th sign to the ascendant and all that, but i think the position of these 2 planets is generally favourable to the 11th.

I do not agree with your view on Mercury. Undoubtedly, Mercury is near the 12th house cusp. However, by being in less than 5? of the 12th house cusp, it is traditionally considered to be in the 12th.

Even if you do not consider the proximity to the 12th house cusp as relevant for being considered as belonging to the 12th, one should take care that a change on house system (this one is Placidus), could take Mercury "physically" to the 12th.

james_m wrote:then their is moon in aries, a more independent moon position less interested in 'relating' so much as 'initiating' and moving forward in a particular manner that is more self centered generally..

I would interpret the Moon angular in Aries as a very visible facet of enthusiasm. Since Moon is the ruler of the 5th, this could mean that 5th house matters such as children, romance, easy-living, are very important to the native, and he is able to express that matters with enthusiasm.

The Moon is peregrine which could mean some difficulties in the expression of those matters, however, it is angular, in an applying trine to a strong Jupiter (a traditional benefic) and to its dispositor (Mars). These are accidental dignity conditions which mitigate somehow the difficulties on the Moon.

So, as one could read Moon in Aries as individuallist, I consider it much less than that because of the matters of the 5th house, which by being in the 1st, are important for the native.

james_m wrote: but, the most important observation i would make on this chart is the opposition between mercury and mars. mercury is the 7th house ruler. in opposition to mars suggests some difficulty in relationships generally - however unintended - it is as if people can feel more intimidated or threatened by your manner for no real good reason. this in combo with the sun/saturn conjunction stacks the chart a certain way as i see it..

Personally, I wouldn't consider the opposition too much important. The opposition occurs between significators in cadent houses, so it may not probably be something very "visible" to the native. Since Mars rules houses 1 and 8, I agree that his relationships can sometimes "collide" with his personal expression (Mars has house1 co-ruler) or something related to losses or partner's possessions (from house 8 ).


(Small disagreements, but I'm taking this as an exercise, I hope you don't get me wrong. Essentially I do rely much on house rulerships, and I interpret planets in an house as other areas of life which are expressed through that house matter

But it was interesting to see your approach..
)..



Regards,
Jo?o Ventura

Personally, I wouldn't consider the opposition too much important. The opposition occurs between significators in cadent houses, so it may not probably be something very "visible" to the native.

Hi, to both of you!

I may want to add something to this- by being placed in cadent houses, the opposing planets do not loose their power to affect the life of the nativity. What happens is that they operate in the backstage or, in other words, their influence is affected by cadency and they accept its nature. Lord of the Ascendant receiving an opposition from a cadent house will surely be influenced by it; the secrecy promised by the placement of the planet (especially if it is in the houses that are cadent to the Ascendant ie 6th and 12th) will not keep it away from the person, rather, the influence will come from an unexpected direction or and when least expected. Like I said, it especially applies to the oppositions that happen on 6th/12th axis. This goes along with the well known description of the enemies represented by the 6th or the 12th house; whilst the 7th house enemies are visible to the person, the 12th house ones operate in a secret way. However, they both attack which is exactly why it is better to have a 7th house enemy - at least you know whom you're fighting to. You can, of course, get easily shot but, at the same time, you are allowed the possibility to act and react openly.
I'll give you an example from my practice: a person has a beautiful 11th house (fruitful sign, benevolent planets inside, no stressful influences) and, indeed, she has numerous friends some of which are almost like brothers and sisters to her. Her Ascendant ruler is partile conjunct L7 and her relationships are very deep, intense and long lasting (fixed sign). However, the conjunction is placed inside the 12th house. The ruler of her 11th is placed inside the 6th and casting an opposition onto the conjunction - a few weeks before her wedding, she arranges for her unemployed friend to meet her fiancee who was, at the time, looking for an employee and, only 6 days later, she finds out that her fiancee was getting married to her friend. The L11 casting an opposition onto the L1/L7 conjunction from 6th to 12th turned one of her friends into the enemy who eventually broke her relationship.
10 years later, that same person meets a man and soon realises that he used to be in a relationship with her good friend - it took a lot of effort on her behalf to keep the relationship with her friend (she wasn't jealous but the situation was quite peculiar which separated them for a while). So, again, the opposition manifested in a very similar way.

In short- such oppositions often suggest that the attack would most likely be prepared and organised behind the person's back but not that it won't happen.

Cheers,

aglaya

hi joao

i think it is cool to disagree! i do it all the time, lol.. i can see the idea of mercury being more connected to the 12th, but it still doesn't get rid of a benefic - venus - in the 11th. which brings me to this viewpoint you may or may not agree with - i see mercury as a general signifactor for friendship. i think traditional astrologers tend to under value aspect relationships between planets, and instead focus on other stuff - lot of friendship, or what ever - i haven't quite figured it out yet!.. the relationship between the 1st and 7th house rulers are favourable. this can't be said for the houses mars and mercury rule as they are in opposition in the natal chart. maybe i need to back up a little bit. i tend to see houses 3,7 and 11 as houses to do with friendship. i don't put it all down to the 11th house.

going back to the importance of aspects. sworm09's chart has a venus conjunct uranus. i think this is important.. uranus forms the closest aspect to the ascendant axis in this chart. venus/uranus conjunction in the 11th suggests uranian type friendships/relationships are developed/cultivated. aside from hanging out with astrologers, one could attach a few different scenarios to the types of relationships sworn09 forms..i suppose this means i see venus as a general signifactor of relationships. venus rules 3 and 8.. one could draw a few ideas off that as well! is uranus acting like a malefic here? maybe! see the thread in the philosophy section discussing uranus role for possible further insights.

here is another thought using house rulerships and trying to go back to sworn09's initial line of questioning. the ruler of the ascendant jupiter is in square to the ruler of the 11th and 12th houses. this gives a bit of a suggestion that the person may not sync up super well with the issues surrounding houses 11/12.. the sect light - sun is ruler of the 6th and conjunct the ruler of the 11/12th houses. it looks nicer if you give uranus rulership of the 12th until you see the 45 between the two. viewing it from a psychological pov - i could see challenges for this individual given some of this, as much from a psychological pov as from the pov of what it says about their friendships..jupiter is very powerful in this chart though and that ultimately bodes very well in the overall picture..


astrology is complex. that is why i like to think of it more as an 'art'. there are a number of ways to engage in it. thanks for sharing.. perhaps sworm09 will offer some more comments on their experience to shed more light on there line of questioning..

james_m wrote:
astrology is complex. that is why i like to think of it more as an 'art'. there are a number of ways to engage in it. thanks for sharing.. perhaps sworm09 will offer some more comments on their experience to shed more light on there line of questioning..

Absolutely!

Well, I'm a pretty aloof and mistrustful person and I'm pretty hard to get to know until time has passed; all things shown by Saturn ruling the 11th.

Generally I find myself feeling ignored and disregarded by people. I agonize over the fact that people don't seem to take much interest in me. As evidenced by my first house Moon, my enthusiasms are raised very quickly and I often find myself disappointed or irritated with the people that do hang around me.

In a recent conversation with my mother, who has a Venus/Saturn square natally, the problems that I'm facing are based on differences in maturity; once again evidenced by my Saturn ruling the 11th. Saturn is weak, but still the in sect malefic in his house of joy, so he does try to help in some ways. While I'm fearful of other people, I warm up with time. I'm reserved but I make my friends slowly and when I do make friends they're with me for years....but even then I like extended periods of solitude.

Another problem that I've had in the past is being bullied by domineering people, as evidenced by my Sun in the 12th conjunct Saturn ruler of the 11th. I'm pretty fearful of arrogant, domineering people due to past experience, but it wasn't dreadful.

What you said about Jupiter makes sense....looking at the dignities in my chart, nothing is standing in Jupiter's way. Even the square from Sun/Saturn is a reception and Jupiter is strong enough to handle anything that they can throw at him.

thanks sworm!

i appreciate your sharing.. i have moon rising as well - in scorpio with scorpio ascendant. one thing i have noticed about myself and think applies more generally to anyone with moon rising is a tendency to be somewhat subjective in appraising experiences and my own role in all of it. i would say that i have to work hard at being objective as opposed to feeling i see something when in fact i don't. this is one reason astrology has been helpful to me over the years. it gives me a type of detachment that i wouldn't otherwise have.. good luck in your astro studies and cultivating friendships and thanks for sharing - james