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Nixx wrote:
I was confident in time, with support, you would emerge as a valuable human being and an astrologer with integrity!
lol! it is an uphill battle and i am still working on it - trust me! don't want to completely let go of my masochistic judeo-christian heritage quite yet!
Nixx wrote: I'm not tossing ideas around here much, I'm quite comfortable at the moment with the idea the Moon in Cancer predisposes one to drink 342 pints of milk a day, need a safe and emotionally nutritious home environment and a tendency to cuddle up with ones loved one and/or the cat (both mother surrogates of course) of an evening. For me without the sign component, a third give or take, depending on the chart, of the brain/psyche/life is missing.

Where the 10th house,(Career/Vocation, Ambition / Status - both ?topically? and as regards their psychological underpinnings), comes in is narrating how the pubic behaviour ( perception of others) is manifested. It could be a shame Cobain did not pop into see me as I might have said to him give up this grunge muzak nonsense and do a Degree in Nursing, then you might want to live, we?ll never know.............
nixx - those are good astrological insights into cobain.. ultimately we will never know. i forgot to mention how the moon is at the sun/neptune midpoint in cobains chart. i think this is a stronger statement of a few things -stomach weakness, drug dependency and early absence of the mother figure being the most obvious connections back to this midpoint as i read it.. how important are midpoints verses the use of signs without them? i think signs are only one part of the astrology - all be it - a very old part of astrology that is considered so central to it, that other ways of looking at the chart may be overlooked or ignored.

Nixx wrote:
I?m exploring the pros and cons of factoring in more layers rather than less, thus my interest in the ?forgotten? older notions, and newer bodies. If someone gets ?mystery charts? right consistently with options such as Time lords, Lots, Eris...blah blah blah, to date not in my toolbox, I?ll be raising my eyebrows and probing into their matrix. Common sense, as I see it.

With Cobain, we can speculate a little knowing he had this very nasty, at times all consuming, stomach pain. Mum has flown the nest early doors apparently, aged 8 or so? And there could be a link here (psychosomatic ? issues around emotional digestion?), tight (Cancer-stomach) symbolism if nothing else. He claims he becomes addicted to heroin to help him tolerate/dull this pain and eventually albeit indirectly perhaps he dies aged 27 a physical and emotional wreck. So was this behaviour fundamentally related to Mum not giving him what a typical Moon in Cancer boy needs, and if so to what degree was this 'played out' in public. Or am I nibbling at the wrong breast as the Moon is strong in Cancer supposedly and not on the face of it bombarded with tricky aspects. Although we can advance his chart to a later age and see ?heavy? Uranus, Saturn and Pluto squares in childhood to the natal moon.

It might be interesting to analyse his lyrics. The only classical aspect the Moon forms is with Mercury (a trine,) and ruler of the MC! So he might want to talk/write about this 'mothering' , and find it relatively ' easy? to do so. Mercury is in the 6th (the my craft is/what am I good at /how can I make a living with my abilities - house ) so he is potentially drawn to and good at linguistic communication. Plus the nodes, so the Moon has a ?fated? quality to it perhaps, (no amount of ?consciousness? is going to change the inevitable?!)

i wish more astrologers would participate in the mystery chart exercises as i think we can all learn from one another. yes - we would be much more tempted to try on other ideas if we saw someone with a high success rate using certain astro techniques we don't use too. the use of a different type of house system - like 8 houses which graham mentioned earlier would be a case it point if it seemed to help in the analysis..

how much do you think astrologers rationalize with astrology after the fact of knowing the life of the person - in this example - cobain? i think they do it a lot. i know i do, and although i try to get outside of this habit, it is easy to fall into explaining away something astrologically afterwards.. perhaps this is one obvious beauty of horary astrology - you have to put the astrology up front before the outcome is known.. one can do it with natal astrology too by making a prediction in advance, but we don't see much of that..

Nixx wrote: I was just trying to isolate this sign/planet/house dynamic, conflation of meanings question, which you were interested in initially, with his Moon, I?m sure the rest of the chart has some narratives which could modify the above brief and abstract (never met him) impression.
thanks nixx. i always enjoy your posts and find your input very informative and educational. reading any good books on psychology lately?

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No, I don't agree. I believe a planet needs to be in aspect to the Sun or Moon or perhaps Mercury for psychological traits of that nature. A planet in a house relates to life emphasis more than psychology. "Topics" as the ancient astrologers would say.
You're unusual, in this zeitgeist, thinking takes us back to James's question as to whether one can or should delineate ?blind faith' as a Neptunium aspect to a planet, or one of these 3, or a house position, or a sign position or does one need or rely on confirmation or clues from all of these components plus others. What is generating your own belief in Edgar?s imagined abilities for example. Ordinarily for someone with these persuasions I?d have my eye out for Sun, Moon, Asc or all 3 in Sagittarius, one or both of the luminaries in the 9th, Neptune in the 9th etc. How do you explain it?

Casting an eye over Deb H?s book on houses it seems the 'old fellows? House 9 topics tended to include religion, travel, foreigners and philosophy. If you can find something important in an astrological chart that is not psychological I think you might be up there paradigm shift wise with the likes of Darwin and Copernicus.
.
Edgar Cayce on Neptune


I didn?t recall Edgar coming up in any books but I checked and found this in Greene?s Neptune ?Cayce who had the Sun Mercury, Venus and Saturn in Pisces and Neptune conjunct the Moon in the 9th house (!!,) provides us with a good astrological example of a Neptunium individual pursuing Neptunian work??.
Cayce did not ?regurgitate? Blavatsky or anyone else. His sources were spiritual, and his only concern was either helping to cure his clients of physical illnesses or advising them on ways to live a life more attuned to spiritual principles.


You might seek to edit Wikipedia one day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce
Not odd at all. All you need to do is study the charts of those who have devoted their lives either to the study or practice of psychology.



Which has been done many a time, but here?s a quick fairly non contentious list of 10 of the top twenty re influence to peruse.

Asch, Dewey, Eysenck, Freud, James, Jung, Pavlov, Piaget, Skinner, Watson.
It?s no accident that Neptune?s trident is the Psi symbol.


Seems it?s a symbol for a lot of things http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_%28letter%29

Pharmacology might be a tighter fit time line wise and its link to drugs and ?altered? states of mind.

The Psychological Neptune resonates with Transpersonal Psychology, therefore Cayce?s interest in Faith Healing / Trance. Scofield in his Circuitry book links Neptune to Robert Anton Wilson's 5th Neurosomatic Circuit idea.

Neptunian behaviours such as dissolution, masochism, narcissism, salvation, renunciation, atrophy, fusion, addiction, deception, illusion, ecstasy, etc ,are of interest to Psychologists, particularly of the Depth variety. They are somewhat removed from the main thrust of Psychology which is concerned with language, learning, thinking, perception, conformity, motivation, gender, intelligence and so forth.

Cayce also attributed the influence of Neptune to inspiration in music and the arts, and frequently advises those with a Neptunian influence to live near large bodies of water.


Which is more normal, at least the link to Music, Neptune is somewhat pre or post verbal so a writer with a strong Neptune could end up psycho babbling like Rudhyar or Tyl (before and after language).

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nixx - those are good astrological insights into cobain.. ultimately we will never know. i forgot to mention how the moon is at the sun/neptune midpoint in cobains chart. i think this is a stronger statement of a few things -stomach weakness, drug dependency and early absence of the mother figure being the most obvious connections back to this midpoint as i read it.. how important are midpoints verses the use of signs without them? i think signs are only one part of the astrology - all be it - a very old part of astrology that is considered so central to it, that other ways of looking at the chart may be overlooked or ignored.
i wish more astrologers would participate in the mystery chart exercises as i think we can all learn from one another. yes - we would be much more tempted to try on other ideas if we saw someone with a high success rate using certain astro techniques we don't use too. the use of a different type of house system - like 8 houses which graham mentioned earlier would be a case it point if it seemed to help in the analysis..
I remember now your focus on midpoints. Not that I see your logic here re his stomach pain, etc? I?ve seen folks bring interesting ideas to the plate with tools I don?t employ, for now. A closed mind is an empty one.
With the MC?s if the information there is enough for you to think your system could solve the puzzle, and it consistently doesn?t, then it makes sense to rethink, even radically.But as we saw with the Under One Sky book those who appear to be in the wrong job might be ploughing on regardless. I agree a very good learning exercise if designed well.

how much do you think astrologers rationalize with astrology after the fact of knowing the life of the person - in this example - cobain? i think they do it a lot. i know i do, and although i try to get outside of this habit, it is easy to fall into explaining away something astrologically afterwards.. perhaps this is one obvious beauty of horary astrology - you have to put the astrology up front before the outcome is known.. one can do it with natal astrology too by making a prediction in advance, but we don't see much of that..
Inevitable to varying degrees. I wouldn?t have known he had stomach issues, or that his mother left him (if she did, I forget where I read this now),.
I see his third album was called In Utero! Cobain may well have known the common meanings given to someone with a Piscean Sun, even a 10th house Cancer Moon before entitling this album. Also as you know I follow music fairly closely, and I suspect would have seen this album?s title, so perhaps subconsciously I remembered it and imagined ?mother? was a big issue before seeing his chart.

One day perhaps a Horary astrologer will be tested in controlled conditions, assuming this hasn?t been done to date. But on the face of it perhaps easier to measure than PA where the objective is for the person to become a more useful or valuable person after a reading or two.
thanks nixx. i always enjoy your posts and find your input very informative and educational. reading any good books on psychology lately?
Not sure about books but I was reading this t?other day , if you have not read about it might be of interest to you.Has a number of astrological implications as you will doubtless notice.
http://www.psmag.com/magazines/magazine ... ics-53135/

After I write this I?ll be dipping back into my latest purchase , which so far is proving to be a page turner.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Western-Eso ... 0195320999

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hi nixx,

thanks for sharing! i don't have much time today as i have a lot going on, but will make a few quick comments.. - thanks for that paper down at the bottom. i found it fascinating and just finished reading it this morning. yes - there are obvious parallels to the astrology community and made me think of how our cultural background would shape our views on astrology different from another culture.. and this doesn't scratch the surface of it really, as our place within it may be viewed so differently too as the article highlights.

the moon is a symbol of the breasts and stomach. we have taken the sign cancer and given it the same symbolism.. which came first? was it an observation on the moon or an observation on the solstice 30 degree slice turning point? or perhaps it was the constellation connection as a siderealist would suggest.. at any rate, i don't think anyone is going to be able to answer this question definitively. i made the connection to stomach issues with moon at the sun/neptune midpoint as i make a connection with weakness of health to sun/neptune - sun here being a symbol for health and neptune being a symbol for physical weakness.. these planets/planetary bodies could just as easily mean other things to me as well, but that is how i got to where i did astrologically - all hindsight with regard to cobains chart of course.. i think the midpoint picture could also point directly at cobains musical abilities with the greater sensitivities implied in that combination..

thanks for sharing!

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james_m wrote:
the moon is a symbol of the breasts and stomach. we have taken the sign cancer and given it the same symbolism.. which came first? was it an observation on the moon or an observation on the solstice 30 degree slice turning point? or perhaps it was the constellation connection as a siderealist would suggest.. at any rate, i don't think anyone is going to be able to answer this question definitively. i made the connection to stomach issues with moon at the sun/neptune midpoint as i make a connection with weakness of health to sun/neptune - sun here being a symbol for health and neptune being a symbol for physical weakness.. these planets/planetary bodies could just as easily mean other things to me as well, but that is how i got to where i did astrologically - all hindsight with regard to cobains chart of course.. i think the midpoint picture could also point directly at cobains musical abilities with the greater sensitivities implied in that combination..

thanks for sharing!
The lunar link to female physiology came first as far as I know; this would seem probable in respect of noticeable sky movements, the ovulation phenomena and brain development. The Zodiacal - Cancerian meanings, again as I hazily recall, started appearing in the 500-300 BCE period. The feminine anatomical fusing, if it was, with the Moon would presumably have happened around the time of the birth of Horosocopic astrology some time later. It might be interesting to examine early meanings for Cancer in this respect. If I?ve seen any they weren?t encoded semantically or seemed interesting/relevant/astute enough to enable easy dredging out from the long term parts of the hippocampus.

Today with so many Cancer meanings to choose from I guess it partly depends on how Crab like each of these is perceived to be. I don?t see it as a moving sideways hesitant or even devious sign, it being cardinal for one thing. Also aren?t crabs active at night, in my experience Solar Cancerians enjoy the daylight. Moon in Cancer may be night birds seeking comfort in the darkness or the 'feminine?. Cancer is not that changeable a sign, those with the Sun there seem to like a more structured ordered lifestyle even if the aim is shaky emotional (familial) contentment, whereas the Moon shifts into various goddesses, shapes, cycles from our perspective. Moon in Cancer is seen as needy, manipulative, smoking, scoffing sweets or eyeballing voluptuous ladies full of ?mums? milk.

I process the Cancerian breast/stomach symbolism more in reference to it being the Asc of the Thema Mundi, which is speculated to symbolise the primordial uroboric mother. From what i've read, or remember, about these myths or cosmologies the birth of the universe/life is not seen as a fraught or needy phenomena more a necessity and a positive. Solar Cancers seem to have a fair bit of joie de vivre, the early Hellenists may have, subliminally or not, noticed this thus confirming the sacred geometric June/July summer loving rulership placement!? The Moon isn?t an extraverted/masculine planet, it is understood more so like the Freudian Id, its function is to get the basic needs met, if they are then sleep, relax, cuddle, and after a while refocus on the next 'feed'. Although this ?food? if the Moon is placed in say Sagittarius, is psychically guzzled on a train trip into the wilderness, not following mum around or keeping the fridge in sight. So the Moon and Cancer may have commonalities but at root manifest quite differently.

Back to midpoints about 5 years ago I thought one day I?ll sit down with 50 charts/ people I know well and explore them, as to when though.