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Deb wrote:
Mark wrote:On the other hand in describing houses derived from the Lot of Fortune Valens does seem to be relying on a purely whole sign perspective.
Not according to Valens Bk II. 37, (Schmidt translation pp.79-80):
It is needful then, to examine the lots more precisely and to the degree. For often times, the lot falls out in a certain zoidion by the platic consideration, but by the consideration of degree in another zoidion. This results from the degrees of the lights and the Horoscopos, when [they] are found either at the end of beginning of the zoidia.
Deb,

I can't find that passage in Riley's translation, but from memory, that passage is advising us to count the exact degree difference between the Sun and the Moon when calcuating the Lot, rather than signs only.

He has this to say about houses from Fortune (pg34 of Riley's translation):
In addition, after finding the Place which has been assigned to Fortune, examine the points square with it and the other aspects, just as with the angles in the natal chart. The Lot itself will be equivalent to the
Ascendant and will mean ?Life;? the tenth place from it will be equivalent to MC and will mean ?Rank;? the seventh will be the Descendant; the fourth IC. The other places will have the same effects as the <original> XII Places. Some astrologers have mystically hypothesized that the astronomical Ascendant and the points square with it are the Cosmic Angles, while the Lot and the points square with it are the Natal Angles
http://www.esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com

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Valens used more than one house system depending upon what the technique was which has been clear for some time. When it comes to counting lots and judging topics and judging trigon lords for eminence it appears that he is using whole signs, especially when counting from fortune (personally I think when trigon lords happen to be exactly on an angle by degree, that this adds to the level of eminence particularly if it is also angular by whole sign). You can see this from the examples that Valens gives from both the Riley and Schmidt translations. Now there are places where Valens does use degrees, but it seems odd that there is no mention of degree positions early in the texts when talking about eminence considerations. In the Schmidt translations start at book 2 part 1, pg 33 or the Riley translation on pg 12 of book 2. (the Riley translation I have counts pages continuously to 493 and doesn't start over at each chapter and has some strange duplicated content where Valens describes combinations of 2 planets and 3 planets early on).

*** With Valens it is important to look at what he does in the examples, not just at what he says.

The problem as I mentioned before is the meaning of the word "kentron"in Greek which has 2 principal meanings: one is to goad or prod into action, and the other is "a center of activity where something revolves around". In the first case, it seems that the closer the planet is to the angle, the more "goaded" or "prodded" it is toward action. Schmidt calls this "motivated". In the other case, a center of activity such as an "agora" acts as a place where business can be conducted for a given planet in a guest / host relationship, the important consideration is the casting of rays and whether the domicile/exaltation lord can perform the oikodektor function.

So the answer is does Valens use whole signs or quadrant houses or equal houses? It depends upon what techniques he is using. Schmidt has said that he believes that this is where the confusion of house division originated.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

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I can?t help thinking that the confusion originated with some categoric statements published prematurely, and a lack of distinction between speculation and fact.

If we are talking about a difference in approach between the calculation of the ?places? (houses) and that of lots or places from Fortune, then yes I wouldn?t necessarily disagree, noting the comment I mentioned before and the interesting one found in Rileys translation, p.157 (third Para from end), where he explains significant changes in the extent of variation found in charts cast in different climes. But Curtis, you make it sound like it has been proven that Valens used whole sign to judge topics and flipped to another system of house calculation for other reasons ? can you provide an example of where we can see him doing that?

If this point has been made before, then it won?t hurt to make it again. The reaction in this thread shows that many astrologers are not aware that Valens gave instruction on how to calculate the houses, and that in the 8th book, his description fits the equal house method, not the whole sign approach which prevents the overlapping of houses and signs in the way that he describes. We can see that this accompanies his detailed explanation, given immediately before the explanation of calculation, on what the topics of each house includes. so I think the text is clear enough for anyone to check it for themselves, and put to bed the idea that Valens simply identified houses from signs, (there being ?no problem of house division at all?) or that the judgement of topics requires something other than the calculation he describes for us. Remember he tells us, very clearly that this presents the means by which the topics of the houses can be judged, and shows that he would take note of those rare situations when the houses and signs are closely correlated:
With these procedures, the Place can readily be interpreted. If it is calculated that each Place exactly corresponds to each sign in the chart as a whole (a circumstance which is rare), then the native will be involved in confinement, violence, and entangling affairs.
I realise this thread is not likely to make me very popular, but isn't it time we paid more attention to what Valens said, than to what someone else said about what Valens said?

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Deb wrote:I can?t help thinking that the confusion originated with some categoric statements published prematurely, and a lack of distinction between speculation and fact.
When it comes to Greek, everything is speculation. Schmidt has said jokingly that it is a language tailor made for liars... :-T I believe that it was Hand that came out with that statement on whole sign houses. Schmidt has repeatedly stated that these translations are preliminary. Riley also said the same.
Deb wrote:can you provide an example of where we can see him doing that?
I just pointed out the examples above. Well here are a couple of typical examples from Riley (Book 2 page 12):
For clarification of the previous points, we will use examples, taking first a distinguished nativity:Sun in Scorpio, moon in Cancer, Saturn in Aquarius, Jupiter in Sagittarius, Mars in Scorpio, Venus in Libra, Mercury in Scorpio, Ascendant in Libra. Since the birth was at night, I investigate the moon: this happens to be in Cancer, trine with Mars. We find Mars rising just after the Ascendant and in its own house <Scorpio>, triangle <Scorpio>, and sect <nocturnal>. Then we find Venus sharing
rulership with Mars, being in the Ascendant and in its own house <Libra>. Third, we find the moon at MC in its own house <Cancer>. It is obvious that the nativity is distinguished, since the houserulers are configured so appropriately. Investigating the Lot of Fortune, I find it in Aquarius; Saturn is there, the ruler <of> and in <the> Good Fortune, in its own house <Aquarius> and /80P/ triangle <Aquarius>. Likewise the 11th Place from the Lot of Fortune, i.e. the Place of Accomplishment, is <Sagittarius>, and Jupiter is there. I also found the exaltation of the nativity: from the moon to Taurus is eleven signs, and the same distance from the Ascendant in Libra brings me to Leo, in <the> Good Daimon. The sun is the ruler of this and since it is found to be at MC with respect to the Lot of Fortune, it made the birth even more illustrious and distinguished.

Another example: sun, Mercury in Taurus, moon in Aries, Saturn, Mars, Venus, Ascendant in Cancer, Jupiter in Capricorn, the Lot of Fortune and the exaltation of the nativity in Gemini. The native rose from mediocre origins to become a prefect and a governor. Since this was a day birth, I found the sun in the triangle of the moon <Taurus> and its partners, Venus and Mars, at an angle <Ascendant>, the /84K/ Lot of Fortune and the exaltation in Gemini, just preceding an angle (hence the beginning of his life was humble), and its ruler <Mercury> in <the> Good Daimon.
But more particularly can you point out examples where I am wrong? Read Riley's translation of the same examples and tell me where the degrees are listed in regard to those techniques to make this more definitive. If it was important, then shouldn't it seem odd that he didn't make it more explicit, not just once, but over and over again in numerous examples as taken from the Riley translation?
Deb wrote:If this point has been made before, then it won?t hurt to make it again. The reaction in this thread shows that many astrologers are not aware that Valens gave instruction on how to calculate the houses, and that in the 8th book, his description fits the equal house method, not the whole sign approach which prevents the overlapping of houses and signs in the way that he describes.

...I realise this thread is not likely to make me very popular, but isn't it time we paid more attention to what Valens said, than to what someone else said about what Valens said?
Schmidt said nearly 2 decades ago that the 8th and 9th book are very messed up. Can you make an argument based upon the Greek directly and not from a translation?

I've spent more than a decade reading charts using the Koch houses before Project Hindsight and came to the conclusion that there is significant overlap in house meanings.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

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Deb wrote: I haven't had time to study the mathematics of the passage, but note that Van Hoesen and Neugebaur make reference to the use of seasonal hours, so perhaps this is a source of the Placidus system(?)
I believe that Placido system is based on Ptolemy's chapter on length of life where all the points are calculated according temporal hours and we know that Placidian houses are distant each other 2 temporal hours.
But this only shows that Placido could read Ptolemy.

About Ptolemy I'm quite agnostic, really I don't know. Professor Bezza prefers Placido system, anyway he always quoted Almagest rather than Quadripartite.
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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Curtis, the example you gave is irrelevant because it concerns the calculation of a lot - but even if it referred to a radical house, we know that Valens offered generalised examples, whilst reminding of the need to avoid mistakes by taking care to calculate by degree. The only places where he bothers to include degrees is where he is demonstrating techniques that relate to the length of life, and which need that degree of precision for the principle to be understood. So yes, we know that there are many places where he takes (or appears to take) a simple sign=house approach, and we also know that there are places where he demonstrates an approach we see Masha?allah take, where the combined meaning of the houses ?by counting? and ?by division? are combined; but nowhere do we find him (or Masha?allah) considering that the sign offers the meaning and the house depicts the strength. And, to throw your question back to you, if the calculation of houses according to the principles he explains wasn?t important - or at least known and employed - then why did he make it so explicit? And why would you need it to be shown over and over, as if the principles of equal house division need elaboration?

Also, why do I need to translate Greek in order to point out the patently obvious? It is clear that several areas of the text are ?messed up?, but whatever Schmidt?s reasons for not translating the 8th and 9th books, the fact is that an able scholar with a great reputation has. If you dispute the existence of passage in the original text, surely that is something that you can verify easily.

I think it was Robert Schmidt who published a paper suggesting that quadrant division is used to depict power and not employ the meaning of the houses, but I could be wrong on that because I forget the details now. Perhaps you or someone else can clarify - if that suggestion/argument is now dropped, then I'll be happy to be corrected.

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Deb wrote: I realise this thread is not likely to make me very popular, but isn't it time we paid more attention to what Valens said, than to what someone else said about what Valens said?
saying something like that will make you more popular in my eyes, LOL!

it is a very interesting conversation and one i am trying hard not to participate in, mostly as i don't think i have much to add to it.. i did read rileys translation of valens, but didn't go over it with a fine tooth comb.

how is it going to change anything is my question? i think the suggestion from curtis that different house systems were used for different reasons makes a lot of sense.

what really is the difference between equal sign and whole sign anyway? you are still left with the same rulers for the 12 houses - something that can't be said once you start using house systems that incorporate the midheaven axis having to be the 10th. does anyone using whole sign houses not acknowledge the degree of the ascendant and whether the planet is above or below the ascendant axis as having relevance as to it's meaning? as i understand it both equal and whole sign keep a connection between planet and sign. both acknowledge the degree of the ascendant..

didn't holden put out a book on house systems back in the 80's where he first discussed whole sign houses?

then you have indian astrology where some mention the degree of the ascendant being the middle or center of the house? does that have any connection here to this? perhaps it just re-captures the way i of think of equal and whole sign being much the same.

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Would love to answer your points directly James, but I'm babysitting now, out tomorrow and committed next week. So I'm just going to let this thread roll on where it will. (In a nutshell I would say that conceptually the distinction goes deep - do the houses and their meanings originate only from the principles of counting signs, or are they expected to be based on division of the celestial sphere by the angles, with meanings drawn from these and intermediate spaces according to notions of the power or weakness associated with proximity to, or distance from angles).

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Deb wrote:And, to throw your question back to you, if the calculation of houses according to the principles he explains wasn?t important - or at least known and employed - then why did he make it so explicit? And why would you need it to be shown over and over, as if the principles of equal house division need elaboration?
There's nothing there to say that it is equal houses Deb. This is brought up near the end of the text in a different context. If it was so important as the only system he used throughout, then why didn't he bring it out in the beginning where the context was? To say that Valens used only equal houses ignores his statement that when the MC falls in the 9th or 11th, then that topic (topos in Greek) also has to do with praxis.
Deb wrote:Also, why do I need to translate Greek in order to point out the patently obvious?
Because it isn't obvious. Astrologers have been arguing over house division for millennia because it isn't and if you can make the argument in Greek, then it can be more definitive. Trying to make it over a translation to English already has significant semantic corruption. Perhaps the best course of action is to ask if Riley thinks that the context could be equal houses, but I still think it is more plausible to think that it is whole sign because he uses topics/signs interchangeably in that section on judging trigon lords and where the lords of lots fall. Later in the book, he brings up degrees, but in a different context. Now if you can find an example where the Ascendant falls in Libra (or any other sign) and Mars was said to be in Virgo in the Good Spirit, or in the Goddess in Capricorn then you would have a point that he was in fact dividing up signs for topics. The fact that I've never seen this suggests whole sign is being used in this area.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

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To say that Valens used only equal houses ignores his statement that when the MC falls in the 9th or 11th, then that topic (topos in Greek) also has to do with praxis.
Be careful Curtis, I never said that. Feel free to contact Riley yourself if you need his onion on whether that passage describes equal houses or not. In any event, I'm of the opinion that when translators translate, they make the text available to the scrutiny of others with knowledge of those matters and other experience to be pulled upon, they don't retain rights to exclusivity of opinion on whatever implications their translated works present.

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Deb wrote:In any event, I'm of the opinion that when translators translate, they make the text available to the scrutiny of others with knowledge of those matters and other experience to be pulled upon, they don't retain rights to exclusivity of opinion on whatever implications their translated works present.
Then you agree that it depends upon what Valens was trying to do as to which house system he used? It is important to realize that when reading translations that semantic fields are often not exactly correct. I'm not saying that one isn't entitled to an opinion, only that if you have read the Greek that your opinion would become more definitive because you would know when the semantic fields are being stretched to make sense of something that is either in your own mind or if it truly originated in the mind of the author.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

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Deb wrote:(In a nutshell I would say that conceptually the distinction goes deep - do the houses and their meanings originate only from the principles of counting signs, or are they expected to be based on division of the celestial sphere by the angles, with meanings drawn from these and intermediate spaces according to notions of the power or weakness associated with proximity to, or distance from angles).
okay thanks deb.

the main problem i see is integrating 2 different axis - ascendant and midheaven.. as i understand it, a time factor( ascension like) is used to arrive at house systems like placidus which integrate the 2 axis.

however if one uses the ascendant axis only to define character, the importance of the ascendant degree and any planets in a close aspect to this degree will have great bearing on the character of the person as i see it. and the relationship between the signs remains intact.. this approach can be taken off the midheaven degree too, but it is in trying to meld these 2 axis together, especially in extreme northern or southern latitudes that creates extreme houses with a few signs intercepted, or one sign taking up a large chunk of zodiac space.. i suppose this is why i think looking at the ascendant and midheaven independent of one another is a better alternative then time based house systems.. the same means of how long it takes for the ascendant to reach the culmination degree is used for most types of primary directions too, but even when this is done - the 2 axis are treated as individual points in the chart and viewed separately..