Valens: equal houses not whole signs

1
It tends to be taken for granted that Valens used whole sign houses - although it has been pointed out before that he stresses the need to calculate by degree, and that he appears to use a combination of "counting" and "division".

What I find interesting is the lack of attention given to his clear description of the equal house method of division, which is obviously the system described by Firmicus, and the only system that fits the description of the places as described by Ptolemy. Here is the passage where Valens describes how the houses are calculated, and where he notes that it is a negative thing if the houses (i.e., "places") and signs do coincide:
First of all, it is necessary to calculate the positions of the Places in degrees: count from whatever point has been determined to be the Ascendant until you have completed the 30? of the first Place; this will be the Place of Life. Then proceed until you have completed another 30?, the Place of Livelihood. Continue in the order of signs. Often two Places will fall in one sign and will indicate both qualities according to the number of degrees each one occupies. Likewise examine in which sign the ruler of the sign is and which Place it controls (according to its degree-position in the horoscope). With these procedures, the Place can readily be interpreted. If it is calculated that each Place exactly corresponds to each sign in the chart as a whole (a circumstance which is rare), then the native will be involved in confinement, violence, and entangling affairs.
This is from the Riley translation, p.154: Anthologies, Book IX
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vet ... entire.pdf

Is this not reason enough to clarify that Valens advocated the use of the equal house system and not the whole-sign approach that is generally assumed?

4
I don't follow you Konrad - or I don't see how it does. I take that to mean that if, say, the ascendant is in 10? of a sign, two places (12th and 1st) fall in one sign. The alternative is to assume that he is referring to quadrant division where two places fall *in* one sign; but that seems to contradict the context of the passage. In any event, clearly this is not describing the whole-sign approach.

5
Fascinating Deb!

Deb wrote:
What I find interesting is the lack of attention given to his clear description of the equal house method of division, which is obviously the system described by Firmicus
I take it you disagree with Robert Hand's view of the Firmicus text in regards the approach to house system used by Firmicus?

In his book Whole Sign Houses : The Oldest House System
Robert Hand has a chapter entitled 'The Problem of Julius Firmicus Maternus'

http://www.arhatmedia.com/whole_sign.html

Hand suggested there that Firmicus was using whole sign houses but utilising equal house cusps as points of planetary strength or sensitivity. He has subsequently stuck to that interpretation in a more recent article, Signs as Houses (Places) in Ancient Astrology, Robert Hand, in The Winding Courses of the Stars: Essays in Ancient Astrology, Culture and Cosmos, Spring/Summer and Autumn/Winter 2007.

I must agree it seems hard to fit Hand's interpretation with this section from Valens.

This calculation of 30? from the ASC is also found in Dorotheus of Sidon.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

6
Martin I agree with you in regard to the Tetrabiblos. But think we should also consider the fifth century account given by Rhetorius on how to calculate the 12 places, which he appears to attribute to Ptolemy. He describes the procedure, which generates houses by a quadrant division in some detail, explaining that Ptolemy discusses the matter as if "speaking of the ideal" when he makes reference to 30?. He shows how the calculations are made and what house cusps result - for example, the asc is 20;16 Taurus, the 11th: 4;8 Pisces, the 9th: 6;13 Capricorn.

I haven't had time to study the mathematics of the passage, but note that Van Hoesen and Neugebaur make reference to the use of seasonal hours, so perhaps this is a source of the Placidus system(?)

If you are interested, the passage is given in Greek Horoscopes pp.138-140, and the reference provided there is "No L428; CCAG 8,1 p.221,1 to p.222,28".

7
Hi Mark, in response to your question on whether I agree with this argument:
Firmicus was using whole sign houses but utilising equal house cusps as points of planetary strength or sensitivity.
No, I don't; mainly because it appears to be a speculation for which no historical evidence exists. The only time I heard Robert Hand suggest something like this he was clear to admit that it was speculation on his part. Not a fact, but an idea that he inclines to personally.

Addition - by the way, the time when I heard this, was when he delivered the paper that was then published in C&C (which you mention above). I remember, because at that time, I wasn't quite comfortable with some of the points made, but felt it was fair enough that he distinguished clearly between assumption and fact.

8
Deb wrote:I don't follow you Konrad - or I don't see how it does. I take that to mean that if, say, the ascendant is in 10? of a sign, two places (12th and 1st) fall in one sign. The alternative is to assume that he is referring to quadrant division where two places fall *in* one sign; but that seems to contradict the context of the passage. In any event, clearly this is not describing the whole-sign approach.
I suppose...does anyone have Schmidt's translation (if he even did one of book 9)?
http://www.esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com

9
Robert Schmidt did not publish translations of books 8 and 9. There are passages in the earlier books that make it clear he did not simply equate houses with signs, I've posted them in the forum before, but don't have them to hand now.

10
Konrad - I am pasting below a copy from a post I made elsewhere in the forum, which gives the Schmidt translation of chapter 6 from book 5 (PH, 1997) - the italic insertions are mine.
And since the 12 places are signified for each nativity, and most things will be discovered through these and the nature of the stars, one must observe the pivot-positioning and the changes of the places; for often two places coincide on one zoidion, or else a pivotal figure is shown in the manner of a declining figure. And this happens by the opportunities for the Horoskopos.

As with the Horoskopos in Gemiini, the Midheaven in Aquarius by degree [*by whole sign; MC would be Pisces*]. This place, then, possesses the relation concerning activity and reputation and children [all 10th house associations of that time], and also that concerning a foreign land and god since zodiacally it is found in the 9th from the Horoskopos; and also, in its case the handing over through 4 and 5 zoidia to the Horoskopos is found to be prospering, and the handing over from the Horoskopos through 9 and 10 zoidia to the Midheaven itself prospers. Similarly also, the diameter of Aquarius (that is, Leo), which is the subterraneous pivot, possesses the relation concerning foundations, buildings, and parents, as well as that concerning god and siblings and a foreign land; and the handing over through 3 or 4 zoidia from the Horoskopos to the subterraneous pivot itself is taut, and also that from it through 10 or 11 zoidia to the Horoskopos. Similarly also, let the same be conceived in the case of the remaining zoidia of long ascension when the Midheaven falls in the hexagon. Whence if we examine the places or the intervals to the degree, we will not make a false step.

11
Hi Deb,

In an old post I recall you highlighted another section of the Anthology that demonstrates Valens not only utilised Porphyry houses but also seemed to have assigned the idea of topics to these houses.

Mark Riley?s translation states:
'
'It is necessary to calculate likewise from MC, and to consider the first third of the distance between angles as operative, the second third, following MC, as of average influence (thus it was called Good Daimon by the ancients), and the last third, up to the Ascendant, as afflicting and inoperative. The Places in opposition to these will have the same force. Orion expounded all this in his book?? The Anthology, (III.2)
While Schmidt and his followers (Hand, Brennan etc) have argued the Valens use of Porphyry houses was exclusively for length of life calculation you have raised the valid question why is Valens calling this place from the MC 'Good Daimon' if that is so? That doesn't sound like just a strength sector otherwise why is Valens using the name of a particular topic i.e. house?

On the other hand in describing houses derived from the Lot of Fortune Valens does seem to be relying on a purely whole sign perspective.

I think its worth remembering that The Anthology doesn't seem to have been written as one project. Riley believes Valens added to the book over many years. So its quite possible Valens adopted different practices in regards houses over this period of time.

Mark

PS There is an interesting discussion on ancient house systems in this old thread from 2011. The link is to page 5 of that thread. On her last post on that page Deb sets out a far more extensive post on the point very briefly alluded to above regarding Valens use of porphyry houses as topics not just as planetary strength indicators.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 5adc7281a4
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

12
Deb wrote:Konrad - I am pasting below a copy from a post I made elsewhere in the forum, which gives the Schmidt translation of chapter 6 from book 5 (PH, 1997) - the italic insertions are mine.
Thanks Deb, I am aware of Valens' writings on this matter. I was just interested to get another perspective on the original passage you quoted as Riley himself admits his translation isn't perfect. I guess this highlights the real need for more of us to learn the languages these texts were written in.
http://www.esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com