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Tropical zodiac and the Southern hemisphere
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sworm09



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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Tropical zodiac and the Southern hemisphere Reply with quote

It's pretty clear that the meanings of each zodiac sign are based on the seasonal changes in the Northern hemisphere. I would go so far as to argue that the meanings of the signs and even the major essential dignities are based entirely on the pattern of the seasons here in the Northern Hemisphere.

This makes sense because that's where Astrology was developed.

Where I'm confused is how we could possibly use the same sign meanings for the Southern hemisphere where the seasonal patterns are flipped? Right now the Sun is a few days from moving into Aries signalling Spring for the, Northern hemisphere but in the Southern hemisphere the exact same ingress signifies Autumn.

Wouldn't that mean that Aries in the Southern hemisphere is more similar to Libra in the Northern hemisphere?

I don’t quite understand the logic behind using the Northern hemisphere zodiac for the entire world when half of the world is having the opposite seasonal experience.

Can someone explain?
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One justification (I am not saying it is right or wrong) is that most of the landmass is in the northern hemisphere; so the earth - as an entirety - "greens" in the northern hemisphere summer. This is a remark Bernadette Brady makes in her article "Fixed Stars; Why Bother?" - where she is talking about the constellation Ursa Major:

    The ancient she-bear walks upon the earth at the time of the annual terrestrial biosphere greening. Every year planet Earth greens in the north and the south at the same time. This of course is the summer for the north and the winter for the south. This, according to biologists, gives the biosphere a type of breath. The earth breathes in CO2 and gives us more oxygen at this time, but in the winter (summer for the south) the greening stops and the earth's breath goes the other way. Since the beginning of our recorded history and human myth, indeed from the period from Thuban to Polaris as our pole stars, the great bear is seen to walk along the local horizon at the time of the greening. Her slow steady plod is provided by the diurnal movement of the night sky. When the winter comes and the growth stops, she is only seen high in the night sky, asleep with her legs in the air. Thus in this period which embraces the dawn of recorded history up to modern times the bear annually awakes as the earth awakes and sleeps as the earth sleeps, indeed in this simple fact could lie the reason for the nature of the naming of that part of the sky.


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Mjacob



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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a wide variety of climes in the northern hemisphere.there is a torrid zone and a temperate zone as well as the arctic. There are different continents with different seasons. The lambing season does not start in all these places at 16.57 gmt on the 20th March because the sun enters the sign of the ram. It does not make any difference in the Southern Hemisphere either then surely?

ps the torrid zone extends from the tropic of cancer to the tropic of capricorn and straddles the equator. Climate-wise nearly all Brazil is in the same weather zone north or south of it. In Africa South Africa is in the temperate zone but I doubt the weather is so much different from say Zimbabwe in the equatorial. Indeed looking at a map of global temperature there is not much to distinguish it. Same goes for most of Argentina and in Australia where the tropic of capricorn bisects the country


Matthew


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sworm09



Joined: 14 Oct 2012
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
One justification (I am not saying it is right or wrong) is that most of the landmass is in the northern hemisphere; so the earth - as an entirety - "greens" in the northern hemisphere summer. This is a remark Bernadette Brady makes in her article "Fixed Stars; Why Bother?" - where she is talking about the constellation Ursa Major:

    The ancient she-bear walks upon the earth at the time of the annual terrestrial biosphere greening. Every year planet Earth greens in the north and the south at the same time. This of course is the summer for the north and the winter for the south. This, according to biologists, gives the biosphere a type of breath. The earth breathes in CO2 and gives us more oxygen at this time, but in the winter (summer for the south) the greening stops and the earth's breath goes the other way. Since the beginning of our recorded history and human myth, indeed from the period from Thuban to Polaris as our pole stars, the great bear is seen to walk along the local horizon at the time of the greening. Her slow steady plod is provided by the diurnal movement of the night sky. When the winter comes and the growth stops, she is only seen high in the night sky, asleep with her legs in the air. Thus in this period which embraces the dawn of recorded history up to modern times the bear annually awakes as the earth awakes and sleeps as the earth sleeps, indeed in this simple fact could lie the reason for the nature of the naming of that part of the sky.


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/bb1.html


Thanks Deb! I'll look into that concept. I don't really now much about biology, but this is something that I've heard of mildly in the past.

Mjacob wrote:
There are a wide variety of climes in the northern hemisphere.there is a torrid zone and a temperate zone as well as the arctic. There are different continents with different seasons. The lambing season does not start in all these places at 16.57 gmt on the 20th March because the sun enters the sign of the ram. It does not make any difference in the Southern Hemisphere either then surely?


Mjacob that doesn't really answer my question. To be honest it actually expands my question.

So there are different climes in the Northern hemisphere that experience the seasons differently as well. Alright.

The lambing season doesn't start in all those places at the same time when the Sun enters Aries. Alright, no one said that it was supposed to.

The fact that the lambing season doesn't start at the same time in the Northern hemisphere doesn't explain why we're looking at opposite seasonal phenomena across hemispheres.

If the seasonal changes don't even match in all Northern hemisphere regions and are the opposite to those of the Southern hemisphere, then how can the same Tropical zodiac be used with the same meanings for all regions if the meanings for the Tropical signs come from seasonal changes in a few particular regions in the Northern hemisphere?

As I said, the Sun being exalted in Aries is due primarily to the reason that that is when Spring begins.

This doesn't make any sense for the southern hemisphere because Aries is when fall begins. The Sun would be declining in power in the southern hemisphere, not rising.

Same with Saturn. Saturn is exalted in Libra because that's when fall starts in the Northern hemisphere, and it's when the cold starts to set in. Alright.

So how does it make sense for Saturn to be exalted in Libra in the Southern hemisphere when in that hemisphere Libra is precisely when the cold begins to vanish and the heat starts to appear?

Basically my question comes down to what makes the signs "work" outside of the regions where Astrology was developed? Because using seasonal basis of the sign meanings in all regions makes little to no sense. The natures of the planets in the signs comes directly from the seasonal attributes of the signs, which don't apply equally to all regions. Dignities that work in one region, by nature, wouldn't make sense in other regions.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic comes up a lot here and I am not surprised. It does pose challenging practical and philosophical issues for the tropical astrologer.

My very first post on Skyscript was on this issue and its a topic that has always intrigued me.

Here is that thread I opened back in 2005:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1172

I opened a thread on the philosophy forum on this topic too that got a good response in 2010:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5135

For the traditional astrologer this raises issues about whether the signs should be reversed or alternatively the dignities for the planets in signs should be reversed. The traditional Irish astrologer Maurice McCann suggested the latter. As Alice Portman points out we also need to consider the implications for the lunar nodes.

Some other web links discussing this issue:

http://astrodynamics.net/blog/does-astrology-work-in-the-southern-hemisphere/

http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-northern-and-southern-hemisphere-astrology/

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always start a natal chart by assessing temperament and one factor is the season of the year. This very question occured to me the first time someone born in the southern hemisphere asked for a chart.

I do seem to remember John Frawley who lectures in Australia as well as Europe insists the symbolism remains the same but do not recall his reasoning. Since then though nothing much else.

Perhaps other members may have more up to date opinions

Regards

Matthew
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mathew,

I think our posts crossed over about the same time. The discussion on the Skyscript philosophy thread I gave above was interesting. As Margherita Fiorello pointed out astrologers have been debating this since the renaissance! Astrologers such as Cardano and Campanella suggested the logical stance for an astrologer following the tropical zodiac was to reverse the signs. On the other hand Morin vehemently disagreed with this stance his in book Astrologia Gallica.

For the more empirically minded I think studying southern hemisphere charts with a heavy sign focus would be a very practical way to study this issue.

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Indeed we must have posted around the same time and I do recall previous discussions here on the forum but I had forgotten the renaissance contribution. The earlier tradition does not assist. I think in Ptolemy's time they imagined they would be fried to a crisp if they dared cross the equator!

Matthew
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mathew,

Quote:
The earlier tradition does not assist.


What exactly are you looking for assistance on? We are still using a domicile rulership scheme based on the tropical zodiac that dates back to Ptolemy. So unless you want to go sidereal you need to confront that issue.

Just not clear where you are going here.

Of course reversing signs (even if advisable) would create its own problems. We would have a bi-polar astrological world where the Sun was in Aries in the northern hemisphere and Libra south of the equator.

Plus the seasons are not as defined in many parts of the world.

And what about people living on the equator? Would the influence of the signs weaken there or change the moment you crossed the equator?

We could avoid this by reversing dignities rather than signs. But then the link between sign and planetary rulers would be totally undermined.

The practical issues as I see it:

Do we reverse signs?
Do we reverse dignities?
What about Lunar nodes, declination etc?

Mark
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sworm09



Joined: 14 Oct 2012
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Hi Mathew,

Quote:
The earlier tradition does not assist.


What exactly are you looking for assistance on? We are still using a domicile rulership scheme based on the tropical zodiac that dates back to Ptolemy. So unless you want to go sidereal you need to confront that issue.

Just not clear where you are going here.

Of course reversing signs (even if advisable) would create its own problems. We would have a bi-polar astrological world where the Sun was in Aries in the northern hemisphere and Libra south of the equator.

Plus the seasons are not as defined in many parts of the world.

And what about people living on the equator? Would the influence of the signs weaken there or change the moment you crossed the equator?

We could avoid this by reversing dignities rather than signs. But then the link between sign and planetary rulers would be totally undermined.

The practical issues as I see it:

Do we reverse signs?
Do we reverse dignities?
What about Lunar nodes, declination etc?

Mark


Geez this is complicated.

It's stuff like this that makes me consider experimenting with one of the many sidereal zodiacs Confused
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Geez this is complicated.

It's stuff like this that makes me consider experimenting with one of the many sidereal zodiacs


Take my word for it. If your looking for dead simple give up astrology now!

If you find one of the numerous sidereal zodiacs more compelling then by all means try them out. But be warned there is no astrological panacea out there. Every choice you make comes at a price. This issue is the tricky one for tropicalists.

But siderealists have their problems too. Like the growing disparity between the signs and seasons. Moreover, siderealists are constantly debating on what is the best ayanamsa or sidereal zodiac.

Logically, I think there is a reasonable argument for reversing the signs but for some reason I cannot really explain the existing tropical zodiac seems to work with southern hemisphere charts.

For example, the Australian singer and actress Kylie Minogue still seems very Geminian/mercury ruled to me.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Minogue,_Kylie

Unless, of course you want to argue her first single 'I Should Be so Lucky' was a clear hint of Sagittarian influence....Confused

What about the uber Aries Australian actress Lucy Lawless? Best known for her role as the Amazonian Xena Warrior Princess. Do you think she is better understood as an uber Libra?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lawless,_Lucy

Or does the Australian double Aquarian feminist writer and academic Germaine Greer really comes over as a double Leo to you?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Greer,_Germaine

Think about the following charts. Do they work for you better with signs reversed?

Che Guevara
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Guevara,_Che

Charlize Theron
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Charlize_Theron

Russell Crowe
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Crowe,_Russell

Pope Francis I
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pope_Francis_I.

Diego Maradona
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Maradona,_Diego

Bob Hawke
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hawke,_Bob

Barry Humphries
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Humphries,_Barry

Michael Hutchence
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hutchence,_Michael

Peter Jackson
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jackson,_Peter

Eva Peron
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Per%C3%B3n,_Eva

Nelson Mandella:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Mandela,_Nelson

Oscar Pistorius
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pistorius,_Oscar

Ayrton Senna:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Senna,_Ayrton

Pele
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pel%C3%A9

Augusto Pinochet
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pinochet,_Augusto

Mark
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
But siderealists have their problems too. Like the growing disparity between the signs and seasons. Moreover, siderealists are constantly debating on what is the best ayanamsa or sidereal zodiac.

Nice photo, Mark, and great shirt color, but I would have expected to see you wearing one of those jaunty Scottish caps that our local Scotsman here in town is never without.

As a siderealist, we don't pay attention to a disparity between signs and seasons because the seasons really have no place in sidereal astrology. Seasons are strictly tropical. I think it's important to make that clear.

There isn't really much debate left on the ayanamsa either. Almost everyone has defaulted to the Lahiri value decided upon by the Indian government on the 1950s. A small handful in the west still use the Fagan-Bradley value, and a fair number (like myself) use the slightly modified Krishnamurti ayanamsa adjusted from Lahiri (six minutes difference which is generally negligible except when using Dasa timing).

Siderealists don't debate the ayanamsa issue so much as each astrologer simply uses his preferred ayanamsa in practice. The favored ayanamsas are very close together: Krishnamurti and Lahiri are only six minutes apart; Fagan-Bradley is 53 minutes from Lahiri, and Raman is about a degree out from Lahiri. So there is general agreement on the approximate location of the zero point. Lahiri is now generally accepted in India due to the availability of printed tables and astrological software.

But the interpretation of sidereal signs is a hotly debated topic. At present there are no standard interpretations.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton
Quote:
Nice photo, Mark, and great shirt color, but I would have expected to see you wearing one of those jaunty Scottish caps that our local Scotsman here in town is never without.


Thanks Therese. After nearly 9 years here on Skyscript I felt it was time to make an appearance! I dont think I will be wearing one of those caps though. I hate to disappoint you but its a bit like expecting your typical Englishman to wear a bowler hat. Very Happy

Quote:
As a siderealist, we don't pay attention to a disparity between signs and seasons because the seasons really have no place in sidereal astrology. Seasons are strictly tropical. I think it's important to make that clear.


Clearly that is the stance of modern sidereal astrologers. However, it is very hard to deny that seasonal and sidereal considerations were not seen as rigidly separate in ancient astrology. Going back to Babylonian astrology for example we know the beginning of their zodiac originally started with the Pleiades in sidereal Taurus and only later shifted to sidereal Aries. Similarly, the starting point of the Indian nakshatras or lunar mansions seems to have shifted more than once. Both these shifts in sidereal order seem to be a reflection of the ancients desire to align their asterisms to seasonal changes. Ancient cultures were dependent on seasonal cycles for their very survival so they clearly would have utilised the stars as seasonal markers. Due to the effects of precession over long periods of time this required changes to the asterisms aligned to the seasons.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
There isn't really much debate left on the ayanamsa either.


Perhaps not on Skyscript. We hardly have a thriving community of siderealists here or in the west in general. But if you look at the wider world of sidereal astrology today this issue does seem to generate incessant heated discussion on the Indian astrology forums I have looked at. Its comparable to the diversity of opinion on house systems amongst tropical astrologers. Here are some sidereal 'zodiacs' I have seen proposed by siderealists:

Ayanamsa used in South Asian astrology
Lahiri
Raman
Chandra-Hari
Vakya
Thirukanitham
Krishnamurti
Ushashashi
Yukteshwar
JN Bhasin
Dulakara
Krushna
Dhira
Tarun Chopra

Ayanamsa based on assumed Babylonian Ayanamsa
Fagan/Bradley
Babylonian, Huber
Babylonian, Kugler 1
Babylonian, Kugler 2
Babylonian, Kugler 3
Babylonian, Mercier
Aldebaran at 15 Taurus

Others
Sassanian
Galactic Center
Hipparchos
Djwal Khul


Lahiri was proposed by the Indian government as an attempt to reform the calendar and standardise civil dating across India. As a consequence many Indians astrologers adopted it as their ayanamsa. However, many other ayanamsa are proposed by Indian astrologers. Indeed many astrologers in the south of India never used Lahiri to begin with! One ayanamsa that seems to be getting more popular in India today is that of K Chandra-Hari based on calculation from the ancient Indian nakshatra of mula.

We had a full discussion on the historical and contemporary diversity of ayanamsa in Indian astrology over on the sidereal forum in this thread:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7706&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=51e38ba7582707109addd74e74d5ca59

Here in the west the relatively small community of siderealists obviously leaves much less scope for such lively discussions. However, you do find passionate supporters of the Fagan/Bradley or other proposed Babylonian zodiacs vs Indian zodiacs such as Lahiri, Krishnamurti etc.

Therese Hamilton:
Quote:
But the interpretation of sidereal signs is a hotly debated topic. At present there are no standard interpretations.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7706

There certainly seems to be a big difference between siderealists like say Ken Bowser and yourself on this. I know you have been putting a lot of effort into getting more discussion of this issue going amongst western siderealists. However, if we consider India in your comment I dont detect this issue as remotely as popular for siderealists as discussions on the various ayanamsa.

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote on Saturday evening on how to differentiate the for the Southern Hemispher. The equator has its own problems but how about assigning libra as a hot and dry instead of Aries Scorpio cold and dry et Sui generis. Then change the rulerships so. Sun cancer moon Leo etc
The. Assess the temperaments of Kylie, Pistorius et al and see what happens
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sworm09 wrote:

Quote:
It's pretty clear that the meanings of each zodiac sign are based on the seasonal changes in the Northern hemisphere. I would go so far as to argue that the meanings of the signs and even the major essential dignities are based entirely on the pattern of the seasons here in the Northern Hemisphere.


Quote:
If the seasonal changes don't even match in all Northern hemisphere regions and are the opposite to those of the Southern hemisphere, then how can the same Tropical zodiac be used with the same meanings for all regions if the meanings for the Tropical signs come from seasonal changes in a few particular regions in the Northern hemisphere?


While the seasonal changes concerning most of the Northern hemisphere are certainly symbolic for the signs, I would say they aren't totally based on this; it's just one level of correspondence. For instance, it's hard to see how the signs' elemental attribution would have been directly derived from the seasons. As far as the classic domiciles are concerned, these reflect the order of the planets in the Solar system (Sun in Leo, Mercury in Virgo etc.). Indeed star catalogues in ancient Greece started with Leo and not with Aries (Franz Boll: Aus der Offenbarung Johannis).

Deb wrote:
Quote:
One justification (I am not saying it is right or wrong) is that most of the landmass is in the northern hemisphere; so the earth - as an entirety - "greens" in the northern hemisphere summer.


Note that the unequal distribution of land and water can be seen reflected in the northern half of the zodiac (relative to the celestial equator) containing two earth signs, the southern half containing two water signs. In contrast (the Yin in the Yang, and vice versa), the one water sign in the northern half - Cancer, the most northern sign - is symbolic of earth's north-pole which has no land mass, whereas the one earth sign in the southern half - Capricorn, opposite to Cancer - represents the south-pole which is a continent. Thus western astrology's zodiac is really analogous to the entire earth. I like to envision it as the space surrounding the earth (or the plane of earth's orbit projected into infinity).

In practical terms, Mark's sample charts leave me without a doubt that the Zodiac doesn't need to be modified for south hemisphere nativities.

Also, South American astrologers are generally quite happy with using the zodiac as given.
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