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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Rectification by Trutine of Hermes/Animodar
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. At least you got a better result with Tom’s chart than I did. And I can also see now the logic of the leap year only being relevant if the birth time includes it. Either way though, you’re left with a result that you have to verify by its correspondence to life-events. I like the way that, traditionally, chart judgements commenced with an account of how the chart was reliable as shown by a list of important life-events matching up to important directions and returns. It seems like it’s a lot more work to rectify the horoscope and scrutinise all these past events first, but during the process we are assimilating important information, and that makes it a lot easier to proceed forward with confidence.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: Research ? Reply with quote

Quote:
My wildest guess is that actually our "real" time of birth is determinded at the time of conception and no matter of the moment we're actually born, it's this moment derived from the conception moment that our life reflects. I've been wonderíng that maybe one reason for astrology in the past days being more exact was because they worked with the (by one method or the other) rectified birth times, not with the exact ones! Well, seriously, I really don't know how it is.


If this is true, one interesting way of researching that would be comparing the charts of in vitro concepted babys with the charts of their births, what do you think ? That way you could have the exact time of conception, not a crude estimation....
Just a tought
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EstebonGone



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 16
Location: CASCADIAN TOMB

Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello,
i have skimmed through this thread a couple of times, and have reviewed the relevant sections in "Tools & Techniques" (i don't have any of Lilly's material), but I am still at a loss Embarassed when trying to calculate the conception time.
I am desperately seeking a birth-time for a certain chart, so i will be attempting the Trutina Hermetis/Animodar/Accidents of the Native method to lock down an ascendent.
If any are willing to assist me, the info i have is...

August 20 1965
South Bronx, New York

thanks
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Estebongone and others,

For using Trutine of Hermes for rectification you must know the ascending sign for sure, otherwise there's no help from this method. So if you know only the date, then this method is not useful, because with it you start from the approximate positions of ascendant and the Moon and then kind of screw it until it's right. I don't know if this method works anyway, today I'm quite skeptical about it. Confused

Yuzuru, what you said about in vitro concepted babies is an interesting thought. Wondering if anyone has done that kind of research... on the other hand if we think about the normal way of conception, it's all about which of the seeds "happen"(?) to reach the egg first and that determines our genetic code. We could think that the "energy of the moment" defines the genes which happen/are destined to (you can choose according to your personal philosophy Confused ) come together in the moment of conception.

But in vitro conception there's not so much chance. So I don't know what part would the "energy of the moment" play there in defining the actual genetic constitution (which in part affects our body and our looks: the things that are traditionally associated with the ascendant) - but of course it would have an effect to the success of the conception; so parents interested in astrology might well like to elect the conception moment.
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You base this method on the degree of the previous syzygy. If it was a new Moon, you take the degree of the New Moon, if it was a full Moon you take the degree of the luminary that was above the earth.

*************

Why don't you also try the exact degree of the syzygy itself disregarding the essential dignities?

I did it myself for my birth data and it worked excellently. The MC calculated that way differs from the exact position of my natal MC by only 11 minutes of arc, which in my case corresponds to *45 seconds* in time units!!!

Just give it a try.It may or may not work for all though.

I also wonder if the result obtained that way would be close enough to Tom's birth data.

Knowing my birth time to the exact minute by my mother's telling (thanks mom Leery ) and also having precisely rectified to the seconds, last year I had attempted to verify it by trutine of hermes and remember finding a time of birth which was close to a minute to the actual birth time.

Later I tried the method with my son and friends who know their birth times to within a few minutes. The method generally gives good results and as a generalization within minutes to 2 degrees (3-5 degrees of deviation is rare)

Just my 2 cents!
Cheers,

[/quote]
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis,

Quote:
My wildest guess is that actually our "real" time of birth is determinded at the time of conception and no matter of the moment we're actually born, it's this moment derived from the conception moment that our life reflects. I've been wonderíng that maybe one reason for astrology in the past days being more exact was because they worked with the (by one method or the other) rectified birth times, not with the exact ones!


This is a very good point, and this is what I have been thinking. I feel that the astrologers of old were using these rectification methods not to determine the most precisely accurate birth time, but rather the most significant time to work with astrologically, regardless of whether we were taking our first breath at this time or not.

I was making a point similar to this on another thread before I was lined to here:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1995

I make the point that the time of birth may not actually be the most appropriate chart to analyse astrologically, but acts as the factir from which to determine that most appropriate chart via these rectification methods.

I also think that if this is the case then it gives us a wonderful advantage in discovering the appropriate charts for those whose birth times are completely unknown. This is because rather than having a 1 in 360 chance of accurately determining the degree of the Ascendant, and never feeling too sure, these possibilities via the animodar method are reduced to twelve possibilities, because we already know the appropriate degree, it's just a case of finding the right sign, which can be determined through directions.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Draco and thank you for your comments,

I had buried this idea about Trutina Hermetis and the real(!?!) birth times as too wild speculation, but now I gave it another try. As I wrote, my own, recorded-by-minute birth time moves with Trutina Hermetis 29 minutes earlier. I took a look at primary directions and a couple of Solar Returns with the rectified birth time and well... primary directions have not been very clear for me with the official birth time, but with the TH time I got one important date almost exactly right (only seven days away from the exact date, which is spectacular with primary directions), the date I moved to another town in 1998, a big turn in life - with the TH time directed Moon (my Ascendant ruler) was exactly on my IC.

But Solar Returns were more interesting: one of the most important turns of my life happened in 1995 (I changed my whole life style for better) and I had a six degree orb Moon/Saturn opposition in the 1995 Solar Return chart (important planets, because they rule my ASC/DC axis and oppose each other in the natal chart). With the official birth time the Solar Return opposition is cadent, 7-13 degrees away from the MC/IC axis, but with the TH time it’s 1-5 degrees from the MC/IC axis, on both sides of it. Another important year was 2004 when I got married, and again I had a Moon/Saturn opposition in Solar Return with a 4 degree orb - with the official birth time it’s cadent again, 5-10 degrees from the ASC/DC axis, but with the rectified time it’s again on both sides of the axis, with 1-3 degree orb.

The idea sounds metaphysical and I could never say in my astrological community that “yes, I was born by cesarean and my recorded birth time is 11.29, but actually I’ve born 29 minutes earlier” without being ridiculed Lala Happy but still... I think I must continue checking this out.
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Papretis, thanks for responding.

It was very interesting to read about the results you obtained from your researches.

I would give this a go with my own chart, but when my chart is rectified with these methods, I get a birth time only two minutes prior to the time I am given by my mother, and an ascendant degree just a degree prior to the original, so my rectified chart would not produce results much different to the original.

The thing is, with my own chart, when I use TH, the Moon is in Pisces for the supposed 'conception' date. My ascendant is Aquarius in the chart for the given time, but through the animodar method, it is the MC that I must adjust, which necessarily brings the ascendant back to Aquarius again.

I am interested in charts that give very different ascendants to that of the original chart, and what the astrological value of these rectified charts might be.

Quote:
The idea sounds metaphysical and I could never say in my astrological community that “yes, I was born by cesarean and my recorded birth time is 11.29, but actually I’ve born 29 minutes earlier” without being ridiculed


Even if you were not actually born twenty nine minutes earlier, then perhaps something significant happened astrologically at this moment that would act as a point from which to cast a horoscope from which many significant and meaningful influences could be identified, even if this moment does not mark entry into the world.

Is the rectification method meant to produce a new more 'accurate birth time' or is it just meant to provide a more significant horoscope to work from in some sense, even if the reason behind this eludes us.

It's a shame that those in your astrological community would consider you ridiculous for exploring this idea. I think it's fascinating and well worth looking into.

As my own rectification produces a result so similar to the original chart, then I thought I could look at the charts of celebrities whose rectified charts would differ greatly from the original, and see how this compares to directions and returns.

Quote:
I think I must continue checking this out.


Please do. I'd be interested to read more about what you find.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Even if you were not actually born twenty nine minutes earlier, then perhaps something significant happened astrologically at this moment that would act as a point from which to cast a horoscope from which many significant and meaningful influences could be identified, even if this moment does not mark entry into the world.

Is the rectification method meant to produce a new more 'accurate birth time' or is it just meant to provide a more significant horoscope to work from in some sense, even if the reason behind this eludes us.


Yes, I would think so. I think my official birth time is accurate, but as you've pointed out, maybe the accurate birth time is not the exact moment we're born in the esoteric/horoscopical sense!
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my Lord, I don't know where I had got the 11.00 time for me by Trutina Hermetis, I calculated it again and got either 10.34 (earlier time) or 11.45 (later time).

But what I've been thinking about this method is, that it means that there are only certain moments during the day when people can be born. Any midwife can tell us that this is not true in real life. So, if we use Trutina Hermetis, we must take it as a metaphysical time of birth, not the actual physical one. It would also mean that souls would be kind of "pulsating" into the world in groups. Anyone born in the same day and same place than I between 10.34 and 11.45 o'clock have exactly the same horoscope when rectified (backwards) with Trutina Hermetis. And what about those who have been born prematurely...? But I’m not denying that it might still be an interesting idea.
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Signifer



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi to all Smile

I'd like to say something about the difference between the "real" hour and the "rectified" hour of nativity. It depends on the orography of the terrain, which will let the light impact the baby earlier or later. This is why it is always necessary to rectify the nativity, even if we were looking at the watch when the baby was born.

Also, we have to think that the important thing is not exactly the moment when one is born, but the moment when one stops being synchronised with the universe of his mother and synchronises with the macrocosmos.

According to traditional astrology, the astrological effect is produced through Light and Air. And these two aspects impact the baby at one particular moment: when she/he breathes for the first time. At that moment, the Air fills his lungs and two valves of his heart close and other two open, and the circulation of his blood switches from horizontal to vertical. In that moment, too, the Light of the universe impacts him, and conditions his body to work in a particular way.

As I said, this Light will impact him earlier or later depending on the relief of zone. A great mass of earth like a big mountain can delay that moment, for example.

Hope the explanation wasn't too long! Razz
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Signifer



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:10 pm    Post subject: thanks for that Reply with quote

I forgot! Thanks for the explanations of the Trutina and the Anymodar. They've been so useful for me! Very Happy
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rectification with Animodar in my case yields a pretty good result...my birth was preceded by a full Moon(16.9.1978.); the Moon was a planet above the earth, the ruler of the syzygy is thus Jupiter,Almuten is Mars.
Natally, according to the recorded time of birth from a birth certificate and my mother's memory, I have ASC 4*22 Vir(18.9.1978,3:55 AM Karlovac, Croatia).
Ruler of the syzygy,Jupiter i closer to the ASC degree, so it points out that my ASC should really be at 2*20 Vir...if I take Mars, my MC should be at 28*50' Tau(according to Deb's article on Animodar as it was used by Galileo...)

But it is still highly confusing.

Lilly himself starts the confusion - first he says that one ought to take the Almuten of the syzygy degree(in the chart of the English merchant, this would have been Saturn at 9*Tau). But then, instead of doing just that, he chooses the lady of that degree("as some would do"-which means...?)Venus. And there you go-the rectification by Animodar gives a "strange concurrence" with ASC degree he has come up with doing his rectification by "accidents" via primary directions.

Regulus Astrology,in his posts on criminals on his forum, uses rectification by Animodar on a regular basis, and the results have been quite impressive so far(at least for me). Now, in his delineations he takes the degree of the ruler of the syzygy as he is posited in the chart of the SYZYGY, and NOT its later position in the natal chart. Lilly uses the degree position of the syzygy ruler as it is given in a NATAL CHART.

Can someone shed some light on this issue,please? Any comments which would help to clarify this mess are MOST welcome. Smile
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wintersa



Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 29

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried wrestling with the Tritune of Hermes method this morning, and while I was trying to follow Deb's and Lilly's respective example charts I realized that -- I think -- Deb made a small but crucial mistake in calculating Tom's Tritune data, which Ida later followed. (Pointing this out is almost as frightening to me as the math involved.) Smile

In Lilly's Table of the Mon(e)ths, the dates beside the months refer to the final day of that month, not the first. January's is 31, then February's 59. In calculating Tom's data (February 20, 1948), Deb took 60 for February (leap year) and then added a further 20 to it, yielding 80 as the number for the day of birth -- but according to Lilly's instructions, it should really be 51. We labeled this B for convenience.

If A = 269 and B = 51, and we add one year for calculation ease as Deb suggests, we end up with 148 or 147 depending on whether we've added a normal 365 or 366 for a leap year. (Tom was born in a leap year. I haven't the faintest idea which is more appropriate.) Comparing this to Lilly's Table of Months, we find the closest match is bisextill 152, sitting beside May (and representing the last day in May). If we subtract 4 or 5 days from the end of May, Tom was conceived on May 26 or 27, 1947 -- when the Moon was in Leo, or had moved into the first 2 degrees of Virgo by midnight. His ascendant is 29 Leo, so it seems the method works!

Ida's chart, if recalculated, shows that she was conceived on February 13, 1963, when the Moon had just shifted from Virgo into the first degree of Libra. She has said she has a Virgo ascendant -- so perhaps either the method is inexact, or she is truly an early Libra ascendant?

I tried the method on my own chart, and three others I had close to hand with verified birth times, and it worked for all four. I don't understand it, but it's fascinating. Smile
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leap year begins Feb 29. I was born on Feb 20, 1948. Leap year began Feb 29, 1948. Conception, obviously, took place before that, i.e. in a non leap year, so I don't think the leap year part of the calculation makes much sense. However Lilly does say use the last day of the month of birth and the last day of February in 1948 was Feb 29. Nice work.

Tom
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