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Rectification by Trutine of Hermes/Animodar
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Wolfgang



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 158
Location: Wr. Neudorf, Austria

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis wrote:
Hello Estebongone and others,


Yuzuru, what you said about in vitro concepted babies is an interesting thought. Wondering if anyone has done that kind of research...

But in vitro conception there's not so much chance. So I don't know what part would the "energy of the moment" play there in define the actual genetic constitution (which in part affects our body and our looks: the things that are traditionally associated with the ascendant) - but of course it would have an effect to the success of the conception; so parents interested in astrology might well like to elect the conception moment.


I have about 50-70 in vitro dates from a clinic. I got the information from the the Clincboss for a study. But I have not finished this research.- A problem is also to definite the conception, is it the time of the in vitro act, or the time where the ouval is given back to the women body? But still I have the dates of the in vitro times, this was always in the morning at 8 am.
May I will find more time to finish this study. But anyway, I found an important point in Hermeswaage (Trutine of Hemes). It is important where the conception was!!!! The Place is important. AS is changing! Realy I have good evidences for this.

Wolfgang


Last edited by Wolfgang on Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:38 am; edited 7 times in total
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:


Regulus Astrology,in his posts on criminals on his forum, uses rectification by Animodar on a regular basis, and the results have been quite impressive so far(at least for me). Now, in his delineations he takes the degree of the ruler of the syzygy as he is posited in the chart of the SYZYGY, and NOT its later position in the natal chart. Lilly uses the degree position of the syzygy ruler as it is given in a NATAL CHART.

Can someone shed some light on this issue,please? Any comments which would help to clarify this mess are MOST welcome. Smile


I don't know about Regulus.
In CieloeTerra they consider both the ruler of the sizigy and the following angle, i.e. the angle from which the sigizy is separating - taken in the diurnal motion.

From what I understand they consider the ruler in both charts, but especially in the natal one.

They consider even a Renaissance variant proposed by Placido Titi and discussed by Gerolamo Vitali in his Lexicon.

As usually Placido considered everything "in mundo", according their hourly distance.

I wrote an example of it with Obama chart- last winter if I well remember. This is the link:

http://heavenastrolabe.net/?s=animodar

this site is a little slow, I don't know the reason, I hope that soon it will work better.

Margherita
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much,Margherita. The article is very good and I will surely use the information provided in my future delineations. Thumbs up
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Thank you very much,Margherita. The article is very good and I will surely use the information provided in my future delineations. Thumbs up


Well, thanks.
I just wanted to add that Placidus used the hourly distances of the three minor aspects too- quintile, bi-quintile and sesquiquadrate, introduced by Kepler Smile
It's me who discarded them in my example about Obama.

In every case I'm sure that in CieloeTerra they prefer rectify by accidents, by primary directions.

Margherita
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RegulusAstrology



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 147
Location: USA

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Regulus Astrology,in his posts on criminals on his forum, uses rectification by Animodar on a regular basis, and the results have been quite impressive so far(at least for me). Now, in his delineations he takes the degree of the ruler of the syzygy as he is posited in the chart of the SYZYGY, and NOT its later position in the natal chart. Lilly uses the degree position of the syzygy ruler as it is given in a NATAL CHART.


I emailed Helena and Luis from the Tradition Journal who are doing the big Animodar research project right now. From what they have seen traditional sources, like Lilly which you mention, take the position of the ruler of the syzygy in the natal chart. I have edited my posts on criminals just now, presenting the positions for the rulers in both syzygy and natal for comparison. I also show results for the exalted ruler when appropriate.

In the limited number of cases I have looked at so far, the ruler's position in the syzygy appears to win out, but this is not a statistical conclusion.

In general, I prefer to rectify by accidents with primary directions. The main problem with the animodar I have is the wide number of permutations given that the ruler's degree can match the degree of EITHER Ascendant OR Midheaven. One would have to run a Monte Carlo simulation to be sure, but I suspect that anything outside of 5-6 degrees of either angle is not statistically significant.

And there is no guarantee that the animodar works in all cases. Why bother when rectification by accidents can at least be tested on an out-of-sample basis and corrected/fine-tuned as necessary?

I have been including Animodar results for criminals out of pure curiousity, not as an endorsement of the technique.

Best wishes,
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World Class Research in Medieval Predictive Astrology
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this does clarify(at least some) of the issues concerning Animodar. Thanks,Dr.H Very Happy

However, there's still this question of whether to take the Almuten of the syzygy degree or just its domicile ruler.Lilly, as it is well known, had the same kind of problem Smile since he mentions Almuten but takes the ruler instead.
But then, if we follow Ptolemy, it seems that he suggests pretty clearly we should take the Almuten of the syzygy degree into consideration...and its position in the NATAL chart.

It remains to be seen and tested. Thank you guys for your time and help Thumbs up


Last edited by cor scorpii on Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Well, this does clarify(at least some) of the issues concerning Animodar. Thanks,Dr.H Very Happy

However, there's still this question of whether to take the Almuten of the syzygy degree or just its domicile ruler.Lilly, as it is well known, had the same kind of problem Smile since he mentions Almuten but takes the ruler instead.
But then, if we follow Ptolemy, it seem that he suggests pretty clearly we should take the Almuten of the syzygy degree into consideration...and its position in the NATAL chart.

It remains to be seen and tested. Thank you guys for your time and help Thumbs up


Well you already know Ptolemy method
http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb38.htm

and I agree with you, I was taught to take its position in the natal chart,
margherita
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Alice McDermott



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 11

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As part of my practice was helping women who had difficulty in conception I have extensively studied the pre-natal epoch methods.

I have found the pre-natal epoch method described above - where the Moon in the natal chart is the Ascendant in the conception chart and the Ascendant in the conception chart is the Moon in the natal chart - extremely accurate!

However, there are matters to be considered before making judgment.

1. Was the person conceived at the same place as they were born? If they were not adjustments in calculation must be made.

2. And by far the most important is whether or not the person had an entirely natural birth or complications during birth.

There is a natural cycle between conception and birth. If you are conceived on a specific day and time, then in the natural flow of things you will be born on a specific day at a specific time. These days and times perfectly fit in with the genetic flow of the family line.

If there is any medical 'assistance' i.e. cesarean, induction, forceps, mother being drugged unconscious, etc., then these rectification techniques cannot possibly work. Cesarean is the worst because the infant is often born completely out of their natural cycle. Induction is the second worst for the same reason, though children born through induction try their best to at least get born at a time that is a least somewhat compatible with that of their conception and the genetic flow of the family line. The other forms of interference can sometimes be allowed for.

The present consistent interference with this natural flow through medical processes was not possible when these techniques were derived and therefore couldn't be considered.

So techniques like the Animodar of Ptomely; Triune of Hermes; Signs, Planets and Terms, for determining the actual time of birth can only be applied if the person had a fully natural birth.

To date (after 40 years of professional astrology) I have found that if the person was a fully natural birth with no complications, the Pre-natal Epoch was accurate on every chart.

I have only recently discovered the Animodar of Ptomely and need to both work with and understand the concept behind this technique before I can make any comment.

If there was medical interference at the time of birth, then rectification using events seems to be the only option left.

Alice
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alice McDermott wrote:
As part of my practice was helping women who had difficulty in conception I have extensively studied the pre-natal epoch methods.

I have found the pre-natal epoch method described above - where the Moon in the natal chart is the Ascendant in the conception chart and the Ascendant in the conception chart is the Moon in the natal chart - extremely accurate!



Alice


If you accept the Trutine of Hermes, you should use an orb, because mathematically, for a chart with well authenticated birth time, it could not be forced to fit into the ancient mutually dependent conditions.
Baldur Ebertin's birth time, as an example, was recorded carefully by his father to 7.12 MET, and the 7 events that I have for him prove that this is an accurate time, maybe 10 seconds earlier. I can't find any epoch that will fit the Trutine of Hermes.
The question is which orb you allow for the Moon in the epoch?
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac Starkman wrote:
Alice McDermott wrote:
As part of my practice was helping women who had difficulty in conception I have extensively studied the pre-natal epoch methods.

I have found the pre-natal epoch method described above - where the Moon in the natal chart is the Ascendant in the conception chart and the Ascendant in the conception chart is the Moon in the natal chart - extremely accurate!



Alice


If you accept the Trutine of Hermes, you should use an orb, because mathematically, for a chart with well authenticated birth time, it could not be forced to fit into the ancient mutually dependent conditions.
Baldur Ebertin's birth time, as an example, was recorded carefully by his father to 7.12 MET, and the 7 events that I have for him prove that this is an accurate time, maybe 10 seconds earlier. I can't find any epoch that will fit the Trutine of Hermes.
The question is which orb you allow for the Moon in the epoch?


A related question for both of you: do you use topocentric (parallax corrected) positions?

- Ed
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:02 am    Post subject: The parrallax Reply with quote

I once discussed with Alexander Marr about the parallax, he said that there is no need to use it.
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, thanks.
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Xanoxt



Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 5
Location: Russia

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello.

Deb wrote:
Animodar Method
You base this method on the degree of the previous syzygy. If it was a new Moon, you take the degree of the New Moon, if it was a full Moon you take the degree of the luminary that was above the earth.


What to do if neither luminary was above the earth?

In Trutine of Hermes method with table by Lilly, I came up with August 11th (which is more or less where it was supposed to be), and the moon is in correct sign (Saggitarius). And actually quite close to the degree where my ascendant supposely is (about 6 degrees less).

I'll do some more checking when I have time.

Petr

P.s. Also, this is probably my first post. Hello everyone.
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Deb
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Posts: 4130
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Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What to do if neither luminary was above the earth?


If the centre of the Sun is exactly aligned to the ascendant with the Moon on the desc, consider the chart as diurnal and go with that. Or if the Sun is exactly setting with the Moon rising, consider it nocturnal and go with the Moon. In all other cases, at a full Moon, one of the lights will be above the horizon with the other below it.
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Xanoxt



Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 5
Location: Russia

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, even Ptolemy says that there are cases when there are no luminaries above the horison. (Hmm, I can't seem to find the passage that says it, but I've read it a couple of days ago. Will look some more).

In my case the sunset was at about 20:00 on the day previous, and the moon rise is about at 04:00 am or something like that.

And I was born some half an hour past midnight (give or take couple of minutes).

Sun is near IC, and moon is somewhere in the end of huge 1st house, about a sign away from Asc. (Asc - end of Saggittarius, Moon in the middle of Aqu).
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