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Sidereal harmonics
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 363

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Sidereal harmonics Reply with quote

Hello
(There's a chart near the end, if you'd rather start with that...)

In another thread, on number symbolism, the question of the best starting point for sidereal harmonic charts was raised. I'm not happy with using 0° Aries as a sidereal start, as it seems to me to be a borrowing from tropical. However, this is standard practice, in India as well as in the West, and Therese Hamilton has pointed to examples which support it, and showed how the H9 can sometimes produce significant conjunctions with radical positions, if the chart is reliable. If true, this would enable the zodiac placements to be effectively used in harmonics, whereas even in India, the divisional charts are often used more to look for conjunctions of planets, especially with the ascendant, i.e. as an aspectarium (in tight compartments, with wide orbs within each), and signs are often ignored.

Or the ascendant is simply carried over from the radix into the navamsa, which removes any aspectarian function with relation to the ascendant ("rasi tulya navamsa"). It is possible to force a version of this which respects the aspects by "fixing" the ascendant to be the same in radix and harmonic, as 0° Aries is in our software. The ayanamsa must be adjusted by the distance of the Asc from 0° Aries (the default baseline) divided (for the H9) by 9, so as to create a new temporary "mini-ascendant-based" chart which when multiplied by 9, will produce the original unadjusted ascendant (i.e. with untampered ayanamsa) and thus has the correct aspects (in H9, 40°) brought to the fore. This is just a way of getting round software limitations; it works technically (you can get the asendant to stay fixed and the correct harmonic aspects to be respected), and produces some interesting connections of the type Therese pointed out regarding the H9 of Ian Brady. It would seem to be in keeping with the Indian notion of the Lagna (cognate with English"link") as the "fixing, linking, attaching" point between the mundane sphere and the zodiac. The "rasi tulya navamsa", as practiced, looks rather like an easier corruption of this idea.

I decided to go back and re-read Addey (Harmonics in Astrology), and was reminded that he maintains that the zodiac is an aggregate of a probably infinite number of harmonics (the 12-fold division is in fact an H6 of the 360° circle, with each sign being half a cycle, and the harmonics we usually use are actually 6x whatever - the navamsa being in this sense a H54 of the whole circle).

Addey thus finds that various starting points can give significant results, as they all can represent different valid starts for the harmonic "waves". In the tropical zodiac, he finds the VP especially, and the other angles also, to be the most effective, but 0° of each 30° sign, and other points, could serve.

While favouring tropical, Addey recognises that sidereal harmonics must also exist, if we can find appropriate places to start the cyclebut insists that they must represent "the point where two great circles intersect, or some kindred factor". After the equinox points (intersection ecliptic/celestial equator), "the second such pair of points would be the intersection of the ecliptic with the plane of the galaxy".

He supports his preference for the VP (even in a sidereal zodiac) with an example (pp. 197-198, chapter on sidereal harmonics), using the VP on the date of the chart as the starting point for the "waves" of th 5th and 7th harmonics, but mapping them onto sidereal coordinates. He finds that this works, giving significant and coherent peaks and troughs (regarding professions for given birth placements of the Sun). This made me wonder if that isn't what Valens, for example, would have done - he used the VP as the start of the zodiac, but placed it at 8° Aries.

I tried this with a few charts, and the results seem more significant and appropriate than with the other starting points. It must be remembered that this does not mean simply doing a tropical harmonic by pressing a button and comparing it to a sidereal radix for the same birth/event data, as that would be working tropically with tropical placements, whereas this involves working with sidereal placements of chart factors and of the VP. Because software only gives the 0° Aries start as an option, we have to "trick" it into "fixing" the VP on the date in order to calculate the harmonic, just as in the example above, we fixed the ascendant and worked out a H9 in relation to that.

I decided to try it with an event chart which has a very accurate timing: the WTC attack. I've used the Krishnamurti ayanamsa, and Solar Fire. First I cast the base chart, for 8:46:30, the time the first plane struck the north tower (the earlier given time of 8:48 was later revised when checked). I noted the KM SVP on the date (6Pi13'15") and worked out how to to get that to fucntion as the base: just as 0° Aries does with our default harmonics, 6Pi13'15" must come up the same in H9 as in radix. Because it is a long way from 0° Aries (the calculation could also be done from 0° Leo or Sg, which also give 0° Aries navamsa, conventionally), it's easier to first work out how to force the program to give a 0 point at 0 Pisces: 3°20 back from 0° Aries, at 26°40 Pisces, i.e. the navamsa just before Aries. We then add 1/9th of 6°13'15", so that once the harmonic has multiplied it x9, it will be back to the true radix VP. So 26°40' + 41'28" = 27Pi21'28" : this is one of the three points in the zodiac that the program can use to calculate the harmonic from on 9/11, "as if" it was 0 Aries. So the SVP for 1900, in the SF preferences panel, has to be adjusted by adding 27Pi21'28 + the difference between the 2001 and the 1900 SVPs (as per Krushnamurti), i.e. subtract 6°13'15" and add 7°38'10" = 28°46'23". This is then to be used in the custom 1900 SVP line in SF preferences, but only to cast the chart to be used the generate the H9. The H9 is then compared to the original radix, and a number of interesting conjunctions and placement swaps turned up.

I then thought to compare this H9 to the various USA "birthcharts (4 July 1776) (this has been done extensively with the 9/11 radix), and things got even more interesting - the 2:13 AM chart, advocated e.g. by Anthony Louis (rectified by him to 2:13:48 LMT), fits very well indeed, much better than the Sibley 17:10 chart, or its rectification to 18:17 by a well known rectifier of American presidents. So here's a tri-wheel with Anthony Louis's USA chart in centre, WTC event in ring 2, and H9 worked out from the VP on 9/11 but mapped sidereally in ring 3. The VP is marked on the charts, and as 0° Aries would be in a conventional H9, remains the same, as it must, in radix and H9.

This is what Addey was proposing in his chapter on sidereal harmonics: "Not one of the Tropcial signs will produce such 'good' (i.e. significant) results [as the peaks and troughs in the sidereal mapping]. Yet the marking points for the harmonics involved are the cardinal points of the tropical zodiac, and this will happen again and again and indeed, tends to happen when odd-numbered harmonics are involved" (pp.197-198).



http://i62.tinypic.com/2wqriv9.jpg

For easy comparison between charts, I've used a 0° Aries house system (the only option available to keep things clear).

Starting from the US Asc, at 2° before Uranus, the WTC-H9 Moon is conjunct US Uranus (and WTC Uranus is conjunct USA Moon). WTC MC is conjunct US Sun. H9 Pluto conjunct WTC PF. WTC North Node conjunct US Mercury. H9 Jupiter (ruler of 8 for this USA chart, and often considered a strong malefic for Taurus Asc in Indian astrology) conjunct the conjuction Asc/Merc of WTC. H9 PF at 2°28' from US Pluto (cf. Pluto H9/PF WTC conjunction already mentioned). US South Node conjunct H9 Asc and Merc (these two are of course conjunct in WTC-H9, as they are very closely conjunct in radix WTC).

There's more if you allow a 2 or 3° or orb, of course. I found some of this quite impressive, and at least it's helped me make up my mind about the best USA birth chart, and convinced me that the H9 is indeed a powerful one, as the Indians maintain.

Graham
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, the link to Anthony Louis's article about the US chart:
http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/why-i-use-a-usa-gemini-rising-chart/

The other main contenders are the Sibley chart (17:10 local) and rectifications, and an afternoon chart, at 14:22 or thereabouts, based on partly on that time being depicted on the clock on the $100 bill.

Graham
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham F wrote:
Quote:
The other main contenders are the Sibley chart (17:10 local) and rectifications, and an afternoon chart, at 14:22 or thereabouts, based on partly on that time being depicted on the clock on the $100 bill.


For the astrologer looking for a quiet life I am afraid there are no shortage of other contenders! I have summarised the main ones below.

The oldest proposed chart for the USA appears to be the Sibly chart. However, the chart only seems to have really gained popularity after WWII with articles by Dane Rudhyar supporting a Sagittarius rising chart (tropical). The Sibly (4.50PM chart) seems to have gained a lot ,more support after the 9/11 attacks. Largely as Pluto was on the ASC of this chart by transit (Desc of the Uranus Rising chart).

Nicholas Campion suggests in his The Book of World Horoscopes, that the Uranus rising chart may have been created by Luke Broughton or his later followers. Although they were unaware of when the Declaration was signed they placed Uranus on the Ascendant to depict the revolutionary nature of the event.

However, many American astrologers in the late 19th century/early 20th relied on a midday time. The one I list by John Hazelrigg was the most popular although he tweaked the time a bit himself.

The Uranus rising chart only started to gain popularity in the early 20th century. In large part by its use by Evangeline Adams and her apparent success with a variation of the chart in mundane prediction. Over the last 50 years it was gradually superceded by the Sibly and Penfield charts. Not least because people realised there was no possible historical basis for a Uranus rising chart as the time for the signing of the declaration of independence by the Congress. The early morning Boehrer/Dobyns chart has gained some followers and the astrologer Frank Piechoski has done research which has reactivated interest in a midday chart.

This site lists the charts by tropical rising signs but its still a good summary of the arguments to support the competing charts for July 4th 1776:

http://www.astrology.co.uk/news/USA.htm#libra

In terms of the Sibly chart (not Sibley as so many American astrologers state) there are actually two possible times that can be legitimately derived from his rather confusing timing given by him. These are either for 4.50PM or 5.10Pm.

Anthony Louis omits to mention the important point that the Uranus rising chart and Sibly chart for 4.50pm are actually a mirror image across the ASC DESC axis.


Charts for 4th July 1776

1. Uranus Rising chart
Date: 07/04/1776 (July 4, 1776)
Time: 02:13:32 (2:13:32 AM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

2. Boehrer/Dobyns chart
Date: 07/04/1776 (July 4, 1776)
Time: 09:36 (9:36 AM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

3. Howland chart
Date: 07/04/1776 (Jul 4, 1776)
Time: 11:00 (11:00 AM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

4. Hazelrigg chart
Date: 07/04/1776 (July 4, 1776)
Time: 12:20 (12:20 PM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

5. Penfield chart
Date: 07/04/1776 (Jul 4, 1776)
Time: 14:21 (2:21 PM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

6. (Sibly Chart A)
Date: 07/04/1776 (July 4, 1776)
Time: 16:50 (4:50 PM) LMT (+5:00:39)
Place: Philadelphia, PA (Lat: 39 N 57; Lng: 75 W 9)

7. (Sibly Chart B)
Date: 07/04/1776 (July 4, 1776)
Time: 17:10 (5:10 PM) LMT (+5:00:39)


Other Charts for USA

1 1775 26th July The Boyd Chart-Continental Congress Declares War
2 1776 Armistead Chart 2nd July 1776
3 1777 Signing of Articles of Confederation (David Solte)
4 1781 1st March Ratification of Articles of Confederation ( Ron Grimes)
5 1781 British Surrender at Yorktown 1781
6 1783 Signing of Treaty of Paris
7 1787 Signing of Federal Constitution
8 1788 Ratification of Federal Constitution
9 1789-Federal Government/Constitution begins 4th March 1789
10 1789-30th April 1789 Inauguration of George Washington as first US President
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 363

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark, I hadn't tried the 4:50pm variant of Sibly, but I saw it mentioned. So I hadn't noticed the reversal of Uranus around the horizon that you mention. Here's the tri-wheel with the 4:50pm chart for the USA.

http://i.imgur.com/MTazPNA.jpg
With this one, the harmonic 9th (WTC chart) has its Moon now only conjunct USA Uranus, not with Asc as well, and the conjunction US Moon/WTC Uranus is lost. But the US Asc is now conjunct WTC Pluto, and H9 NN is now nearly conjunct the US PF as well as Mercury. The WTC MC is also closer to US Sun (22').
I've also noticed (doesn't show on triwheel) that the H9 Mars in Sag is conjunct the US chart's syzygy (full) Moon.
I was really interested in exploring different ways of generating valid sidereal harmonics than the habitual/default 0° Aries. The connections with the US chart were a bonus!
Graham
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh....Graham, if you want to test harmonics, you need to use birth charts with secure and verified birth times. There is infinite controversy about the USA chart. It's not a good chart to use to test harmonic theory. Also the navamsa as such seems to apply to human beings more than events, as it is said to relate to a person's spiritual destiny, and to "complete" and often clarify the natal picture.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Sidereal harmonics Reply with quote

Graham F wrote:
This made me wonder if that isn't what Valens, for example, would have done - he used the VP as the start of the zodiac, but placed it at 8° Aries.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but if you read Valens, you will see that that is not what he did. His zodiac, like everyone else's, began with 0° Aries, while the equinox was located at 8° Aries.
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese
Forget about the USA chart, it was just an afterthought, and I did not propose a harmonic chart for it, just the radix.
Look just at the outer two wheels if the comparison with USA charts seems inappropriate, as the attack on the WTC is very precisely timed, certainly a lot more so than Ian Brady's birth. Notice the sort of Pluto/Uranus/nodal connections, the conjunction of Jupiter to the Mercury/Ascendant conjunciton in the radix for WTC (ring 3 on ring 2). This is the sort of thing you were pointint up with Brady's chart and it's H9.
Actually, for planets in the zodiac other than the Moon, you don't need a very accurate birthtime anyway, except to compare to angles - you can see that except for moon and angles, Marks' favoured US chart gives much the same results as Louis's. Uranus and Pluto are not going to move much in a day. So there's no need to sigh.
Graham


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Graham F



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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark - right, I know there were other dates and times around. I shouldn't have brought up the US chart, the ones with Uranus prominent (Louis's or your 16:50 one look to "fit" quite well with the WTC, but I was really trying to look at that event and it's harmonic 9th, using a pointer from Addey. I've muddied the waters with US chart.

Martin - thanks for the note, I stand corrected on Valens. I could perhaps have said Valens was working differently than modern tropical astrologers, simply by recognising that the VP (which must have had some importance to be worth mentioning, even if he didn't use it to work from, as you say) was not at 0° Aries. Aries was the first sign for him, and it began at 0 as you say. Parts of Aries are considered wet and rainy, I think, so perhaps that's the nearest we get to something changing in early Aries.

We will never know, I suppose, whether Aries was the first sign because it contained the VP (at 8, he thought), or because he and others would have thought it was essentially the first sign for all time, if he'd fully understood precession. Too many ifs, and I don't think it matters much sidereally, except if we want to use harmonics with signs and rulerships, rather just as an aspectarian.

Graham
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a biwheel with just the WTC chart and the harmonic as explained, without the controversial US chart:

http://imgur.com/tLVX5Nh

Graham
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham, I haven't yet had time to carefully consider your post (...those long paragraphs: I have to move them into my mail program and break them up for easy reading...), but a brief note here on ayanamsas:

"SVP" translates to "synetic vernal point" and refers ONLY to the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa. "VP" (vernal point) references all the other ayanamsas.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Editing Note 21 April 2014: This post relates to a discussion between Martin and Mark that has been deleted. I'm leaving my post because Martin's comment is pertinent to any discussion of the zodiac.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see what else there is to say on this topic. We have the thorough work of scholars: Alexander Jones, Raymond Mercier, and most recently Rumen Kolev's book on the Babylonian astrolabe which includes material on the fixed Babylonian zodiac. We have the planetary positions in Babylonian and old Greek horoscopes. They are all sidereal.

Martin has summed it up nicely:
Quote:
Of course the zodiac was simultaneously sidereal and tropical if it was perceived as fixed in relation both to the stars and to the seasons; but just as obviously, its starting point was originally one or more fixed stars (since the offset from the equinox must have come from somewhere). There was no indigenous Greek tradition of the zodiac, so that's a non-issue. And I'd say that the fact that the divisions of the zodiac are all named after the constellations rather than the seasons is something of a giveaway...

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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:57 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I respect the work of scholars, and as astrologers we don't really have the academic qualifications to question their work. As they say in India, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." If any of us wants to support a zodiac, we should be willing to show its viability with research.

Why is no one doing this now? Why has no one taken up the challenge of showing Cyril Fagan's deafness in the tropical chart? Why hasn't anyone posted a few other charts of deaf people to show the relevant patterns? Astrology is for Today. That's where our focus should be if we want to see astrology continuing to progress.
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Phil



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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What interests me is whether Valens actually uses the equinox as the starting point of Aries anywhere. That would contradict his description of the signs at I.2.


In Anthology Book I chapter 6, when Valens describes the calculations for rising times of each sign, he does so in such a way that astronomically puts the spring equinox at zero degrees Aries.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham, did you notice that the chart didn't come through in your April 13 post?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
In Anthology Book I chapter 6, when Valens describes the calculations for rising times of each sign, he does so in such a way that astronomically puts the spring equinox at zero degrees Aries.

Yes, good point. The system of rising times is very ancient, and if you equate its 30-degree segments with the zodiacal signs, you get a 'Ptolemaic' or 'Hipparchean' tropical zodiac. So there is an inconsistency in Valens' writing here. In my opinion, based on the level of mathematics found in the Anthologiae, it seems very likely that Valens didn't quite understand what he was doing with regard to the rising times.
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