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Sidereal harmonics
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham wrote:
Quote:
This is also, I think, a major problem with the Indian varga harmonics (and non-harmonic divisional charts), and the Indian approach to aspects etc: everything's in separate boxes, and with harmonics, which exaggerate orbs etc, you can easily miss and ignore a very close conjunction etc. A slightly wrong ayanamsa, in sidereal, would also throw things way out...

What this amounts to is that the Indian varga charts are not harmonics in the way that John Addey understands them. Another big research area then. There's a lot to reply to on this topic, but I don't have the time at the moment. I'm thinking of ways harmonics in groups might be studied using the research program JigSaw which didn't exist when John Addey was alive.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham wrote:
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(To get that I had to trick SF into calculating a sidereal harmonic which starts not from 0° Aries sidereal, but from the SVP, 6°13 Pi, and thus leaves this the same in radix and harmonic)

Graham, can you explain exactly how you did that? It can be done manually, of course, by adjusting the tropical 9th harmonic degrees, but how did you get Solar Fire to do it?
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello James
It's tropical 0° Cancer/Capricorn, the solstice points (90° from the intersection of the ecliptic and the celestial equator), not 0° Aries (the intersection itself), that are now also very close to the intersection of the ecliptic with the plane of the galaxy (Addey says about 29 Gemini/Sagittarius tropical, astonomers Meuss and Smelyakov calculated this to fall at 270° in May 1998, and some time in 1998 seems to be the consensus).
Addey also mentions the solar apex and the galactic centre itself as possible valid starting points for sidereal harmonic phases, but prefers the galactic equator/ecliptic hypothesis as being the intersection of another great circle with the ecliptic.

Since we're talking about finding a valid sidereal starting point for sidereal harmonics, I don't see how an emphasis on 0 cardinal/tropical is relevant - this current coincidence is purely incidental in sidereal terms. In 1000 years time the galactic equator (and the other points you mention) will still intersect with the ecliptic in the same places sidereally (allowing no doubt for very minimal wobble or proper movment, depending on how and with respect to what they are measured). But their tropical coordinates will then be well in the middle of the cardinal tropical signs, moving towards the fixed ones.
Graham
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese - I explained it in laborious detail in the first post of this thread. Here is the relevant passage:
Quote:
Because software only gives the 0° Aries start as an option, we have to "trick" it into "fixing" the VP on the date in order to calculate the harmonic, just as in the example above, we fixed the ascendant and worked out a H9 in relation to that.

I decided to try it with an event chart which has a very accurate timing: the WTC attack. I've used the Krishnamurti ayanamsa, and Solar Fire. First I cast the base chart, for 8:46:30, the time the first plane struck the north tower (the earlier given time of 8:48 was later revised when checked). I noted the KM SVP on the date (6Pi13'15") and worked out how to to get that to function as the base: just as 0° Aries does with our default harmonics, 6Pi13'15" must come up the same in H9 as in radix. Because it is a long way from 0° Aries (the calculation could also be done from 0° Leo, which also give 0° Aries navamsa, conventionally), it's easier to first work out how to force the program to give a 0 point at 0 Pisces: 3°20 back from 0° Aries, at 26°40 Pisces, i.e. the navamsa just before Aries. We then add 1/9th of 6°13'15", so that once the harmonic has multiplied it x9, it will be back to the true radix VP. So 26°40' + 41'28" = 27Pi21'28" : this is one of the three points in the zodiac that the program can use to calculate the harmonic from on 9/11, "as if" it was 0 Aries. So the SVP for 1900, in the SF preferences panel, has to be adjusted by adding 27Pi21'28 + the difference between the 2001 and the 1900 SVPs (as per Krushnamurti), i.e. subtract 6°13'15" and add 7°38'10" = 28°46'23". This is then to be used in the custom 1900 SVP line in SF preferences, but only to cast the chart to be used the generate the H9. The H9 is then compared to the original radix, and a number of interesting conjunctions and placement swaps turned up.


Graham
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham F wrote:


Since we're talking about finding a valid sidereal starting point for sidereal harmonics, I don't see how an emphasis on 0 cardinal/tropical is relevant - this current coincidence is purely incidental in sidereal terms.
Graham


graham, good luck finding a 'valid' starting point! my understanding of harmonics has no relationship to zodiac signs regardless it being sidereal or tropical. but if you think you might be able to find a valid starting point using a this unique astrological approach of harmonics - good luck!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham wrote:
Quote:
Therese - I explained it in laborious detail in the first post of this thread. Here is the relevant passage:

Well, that explains it. I often don't remember posts more than a day previously, and am not able to read on-screen paragraphs longer than five or six lines. When writing for on-screen viewing, it's always best to break up long paragraphs for the benefit of older eyes.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun May 18, 2014 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m beginning to see why I was confused by Graham’s charts and explanations. As I understand it, Graham, you wanted to calculate the 9th harmonic of the World Trade Center (WTC) chart with the start point of the harmonic “wave” beginning at the spring equinox, 0° of Aries, tropical zodiac. But you want the planetary longitudes to be in the Krishnamurti zodiac. As a note, any natal chart being used must have the same wave start point as harmonics related to that chart.

The angles are supremely important in any natal chart, but they tend to hide when zero Aries is placed on the ascendant. The ascendant is what distinguishes the chart from a chart in any other locale at the same time. It’s important which harmonic planets fall near the angles. If we place zero Aries on the ascendant, we visually lose the key angular positions. Below is the standard WTC Krishnamurti chart with the standard navamsa.



First we have to ask why Jupiter is in such a critical position at the nonagesimal (NG)?
First, in general, over the years I’ve found that Jupiter in the 10th house isn’t a good position, probably because the 10th is Capricorn’s, natural house, and Jupiter falls in Capricorn. But far more important for WTC, Jupiter disposits the Mars-Ketu conjunction in Sagittarius, effectively bringing those two planets to the forefront at the NG.

Then if we add the 9th harmonic planets, we see that both these planets appear in the 10th house (plane hits high up in the building). Mean Ketu falls within a degree of natal Jupiter, and Mars falls in the precise degree of mean Rahu. When events happen which effect a great number of people, Rahu and Ketu are invariably present and related to the angles in some way.

Then we see that navamsa Pluto falls directly at the nadir. As I relate Pluto partly to Vulcan (as per Edgar Cayce), the symbolism of fire and explosion is very fitting. Rahu is also with Pluto, and both fall in the sign of natal Mars and Ketu, though not within a degree or two.

We also find in the sidereal navamsa that both the Sun and Moon are in Mars-ruled Scorpio, and the Sun is only three degrees from natal Pluto in Scorpio. These are the primary conjunctions between the WTC natal and navamsa charts:

9th Mars conjunct natal Rahu, 10th house/sign (Gemini)
9th Ketu conjunct natal Jupiter, at NG, 10th house/sign (Gemini)
9th Pluto at natal nadir (1 degree orb)
9th Sun conjunct natal Pluto
9th Sun, Moon in Mars ruled Scorpio in natal Pluto sign
9th Pluto, Rahu in sign of natal Mars/Ketu

The nonagesimal in the WTC chart is in the zodiacal degree of Sirius at 20 degrees of Gemini.

So there is a multiple picture involving Mars, Ketu, Rahu and Pluto in relation to angular signs. Note that Gemini at the NG containing key planets is the domicile of Mercury, vehicles of transport (planes), and Mercury is on the ascendant squared by Jupiter which carries the symbolism of Mars and Ketu from Sagittarius.

I’m writing another post on an interesting USA chart in relation to the sidereal and tropical WTC charts. These are qute different due to precession from the 1700s until the present.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun May 18, 2014 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James writes
Quote:
my understanding of harmonics has no relationship to zodiac signs regardless it being sidereal or tropical. but if you think you might be able to find a valid starting point

Well I think I agree, that's why I like the idea of starting at the VP, whether working tropically or zodiacally. Whatever you call the 30° sector that it starts or that it's in, whatever it's ruled by, we can all agree where it is in relation to the sun's annual movement.
I don't see how you can have an understanding of harmonics that doesn't involve starting the harmonic phase somewhere!
Graham


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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the passage of time that distinguishes tropical charts from sidereal charts. This is especially evident when we’re dealing with historic charts such as the birth of countries or cities. In general I haven’t studied in depth the variety of USA charts, but one chart is in amazing synchronicity with the World Trade Center disaster chart in 2001.

The origin of this particular USA chart is interesting. It’s the usual July 4, 1776 date, but the time is set for 6:30 p.m. LMT. There used to be a magazine written entirely by readers in the 1970s called The Mercury Hour. One contributor for only a short time was a woman named Phyllis Givins who channeled an entity called “Hermetros.”

Due to the scorn of the more scientific readers including Dale Huckeby, Phyllis withdrew from the magazine after only a few issues. But the time “Hermetros” gave for the birth of the USA in the October 1978 (page 12) issue of the magazine was 6:30 p.m., when he stated all the signatures on the document were complete

At a much later date after extensive event research James Kelleher (American Jyotish astrologer) came up with the same time of 6:30 p.m. However, there was some evidence that he cheated in that he was already aware of the psychic communication for that time.

However, the comparison of the WTC natal and navamsa charts with this USA chart is striking if we look at the ascendant/descendant axis. The chart has a sidereal Sagittarius ascendant, and we’ve seen a buildup of Gemini planets for WTC attacks which closely align with the descendant (mundane enemies) of this chart.



Ascendant/Descendant Axis

9 Sagittarius USA 6:30 ascendant
8 Sagittarius WTC mean Ketu
7 Sagittarius WTC navamsa Mars

9 Gemini USA 6:30 descendant (enemies in mundane charts)
8 Gemini WTC mean Rahu (house/sign 10)
8 Gemini WTC navamsa Mars (house/sign 10)

0 Gemini USA Mars (conj descendant)
4 Gemini WTC Moon

24 Virgo USA Saturn (any time of day)
20 Virgo WTC Ascendant
20 Virgo WTC Mercury (disposits Jupiter, Moon, Rahu)

So in summary USA Mars/Descendant are conjunct:
WTC Rahu, Moon, navamsa Mars

*********************************

Below is the tropical WTC chart placed around the tropical 6:30 USA chart. There are several problems with the WTC chart itself, one of most tragic and destructive events in US history. Several planets are very well placed in the chart:

Jupiter is exalted in Cancer
Mars is exalted in Capricorn
Mercury is in its own triplicity in Libra
Saturn is in its own triplicity in Gemini




The significant sidereal line-up of planets on the descendant axis is lost, though Mars and Ketu are still close to the ascendant below the horizon in a different sign than the ascendant.

13 Cancer USA Sun
11 Cancer WTC Jupiter (inappropriate: exalted Jup/Sun conj)

14 Libra USA Saturn
14 Libra WTC Ascendant (appropriate)
14 Libra WTC Mercury

Other conjunctions or lack of them can be observed by studying the tropical and sidereal charats in relation to the 6:30 USA chart. The main difference is the loss of the planetary buildup on the Gemini descendant in the tropical WTC chart.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun May 18, 2014 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese

I agree of course that the angles are important, and it's normally best to line up to the ascendant. I thought 0° Aries would be easier to read, with 2, 3 then 4 charts (also US one only a midday chart, and only slower moving factors considered).

I'm afraid I don't think we're really interested in the same things, as I don't find your analysis of dispositors, or the Sirius point (with 3° orbs), as persuasive as that Jupiter hit on the Me/As conjunction in the tropical or tropical-siderealised biwheel. And I don't find the "siderealised VP harmonic" (which does indeed show that Jupiter hit) as convincing, in this particular case at least, as the straightforward tropical one (ignoring rulerships, as we're not going to agree easily on those).

This latter straight tropical triwheel (see above posts, the last two charts) gets radical Jupiter of WTC-1993, at 13°25', within 1° of that As/Me-Ju alignment in 9/11 radix and D9), and that whole pattern of conjunctions perfectly aligned with 4th July 1776 Saturn - amongst other things. This does not work sidereally, there is nothing so immediatemy striking, no matter how you involve rulerships.

I'd be more inclined to look at this sort of surprising configuration and try to work out what rulership scheme might possibly best explain it, rather than starting with the rulership scheme and ayanamsa and then identifying things which confirm them.
So we'll both go our own ways for now...

Incidentally, I've found that it's much easier to do this "tropical with offset", to get the sidereal coordinates for a tropical H9 calculated from the VP, with Jagannatha Hora freeware. You only get Indian charts, not degree points in the divisionals, but I think it makes the logic of the procedure clearer.

You first check what the ayanamsa of the date is with KM (9/11 = 23:47:03), divide it by 9 (= 2°38'33") and use the ayanamsa offset option "tropical + add 2°38'33"). The harmonic calculation will multiply the difference by 9, bringing you back to the date ayanamsa. You get the planets in all the right sign-boxes, corresponding to their position in signs in the SF biwheel which was more laborious to generate).

Graham
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese wrote:
Quote:
Sigh....Graham, if you want to test harmonics, you need to use birth charts with secure and verified birth times. There is infinite controversy about the USA chart. It's not a good chart to use to test harmonic theory

Right, that's why, after your remark, I went for midday and only refered to slow moving factors (and of course only used the radix of that chart).
Graham


Last edited by Graham F on Sun May 18, 2014 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham F wrote:

I don't see how you can an understanding of harmonics that doesn't involve starting the harmonic phase somewhere!
Graham


that is indeed true!! i think the big focus in harmonic charts is the numbers.. this is what the harmonic charts emphasize.. any harmonic chart uses leans almost entirely on the harmonic number used to get the chart.. in the case of the navamsha chart - the number 9 is the emphasis. one could also say the novile aspect is the emphasis and that wouldn't be too far off either, although it puts the focus on aspects as opposed to numbers.. what is the difference? it is a general question which i don't have an answer to..

the indian astro concept of vargottama becomes an interesting one with all this in mind.. perhaps if one views astrology within the framework of divination it can make sense, but in any other context it doesn't make sense to me personally. however, the starting point one uses for doing the harmonic chart will definitely alter this concept too!

here is a quote from bob marks website that i see much the same way.
"2) There are no signs or houses in harmonic charts. Remember that everything has been rearranged, so please don't do sign or house interpretations because they are no longer there. The purpose of harmonics is to get more information about aspects and aspect patterns."
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/harmonics32.1.html
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James - that advice from Bob Marks seems very sound. Remember he starts his harmonics from the VP.
Graham
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does anyone know what therese is trying to accomplish with the tri wheel?

therese? are you hoping to give more validity to the particular natal usa chart you've chosen by recognizing connections in the event chart and navamsha to the event chart? i see you are hoping to convince folks of the greater merits of the sidereal zodiac by emphasizing sign placements which is exactly opposite the way i and bob marks understand using harmonic charts! that i get..

i am reminded of mixing apples and oranges..
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Graham F



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Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese wrote:
Quote:
Below is the tropical WTC chart placed around the tropical 6:30 USA chart. There are several problems with the WTC chart itself, one of most tragic and destructive events in US history. Several planets are very well placed in the chart:

Jupiter is exalted in Cancer
Mars is exalted in Capricorn
Mercury is in its own triplicity in Libra
Saturn is in its own triplicity in Gemini

Well, we know the chart is right, and we know that, tropically, it and its H9 give some very interesting alignments with other major US tropical charts, so maybe we should start looking again at our tropical rulership scheme...
(Though it's often said that exalted planets are "overweening").
Graham
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