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Western-style Astrology and Chinese Bazi
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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 94
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Larxene,

There are many approaches for using or interpreting bazi and most Chinese teachers regard their methods as a secret which only their students would know it.

I can tell you the most common usage nowadays which had been built in the Song Dynasty by Xú Zi Píng, that is :

(1) Use the Day heavenly stems as yourself

(2) Check the relation ( Generation or Restriction in five elements ) between the Day heavenly stems and the other pillars.

Have fun

Ming
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ming and Larxene,

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Quote:
Further, I know that in Chinese astrology the planets belong to the elements in this fashion:

Mercury = water
Venus = metal
Mars = fire
Jupiter = wood (or wind)
Saturn = earth


Ming replied:
Quote:
I don’t know why Wiki or western translated five elements or bazi books ? ( however I don’t read neither western translated bazi books. May you recommend some to me? ) make such correspondence with five elements between five planets because I think they are different thing ,at the least , I don’t read a book here in Chinese especially in the old source having made such connection and I can’t find out the planets (except the Sun) motion in bazi system.


This quite surprises me, Ming!

According to this website:
http://users.wfu.edu/moran/planets_y_powers.html
the Chinese names for the elements and the planets are the same.

My wife (who is from Japan) confirmed to me that, in the related Japanese language the planets also bear the element names in the same order (so Jupiter is the "wood star" etc.).

The article linked above is also noteworthy for its comparison of Western with Chinese planetary hours.

Regarding your question about Western literature on Chinese astrology Smile - Derek Walters has written some comprehensive books on Chinese astrology and related themes.

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Michael, if you want to compare the elements with the planets, there are several approaches here. The problem is, to compare them, you need to know what you are comparing.


There may be other approaches mentioned somewhere, and in this case, I would like to hear about them. The assignment I am presenting is the prevailing one in Western tradition, however. It was important in Raymond Lull's universal scheme (source: Francis A. Yates: Lull and Bruno) and also played a role in Alchemy, for example, in Ullmannus' Buch der Heiligen Dreifaltigkeit ("Book of the Holy Trinity").

It is obvious where these correspondences of the planets with the elements came from. The elements are each representing two Aristotelian principles (also called proto-elements in Alchemy). In traditional astrology, Mars is considered to be of the qualities warm and dry, like Fire; Venus is cold and moist (Water); Jupiter is hot and moist (Air); Saturn is cold and dry (Earth). See for example Al-Biruni:
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/albiruniplanetsgeneral.html

Quote:
The first problem is comparing the four western elements with the five chinese elements. Four is not equal to five. We can add aether as the fifth western element, but...it's not there in astrology, and I have difficulty comparing aether with any other elements.


Agreed, and I don't mean to be overly simplistic. But I do find the similarities between the Hellenistic and the Chinese assignments of the elements to the planets intriguing. Note that Jupiter's element Wood (so I have read) can also be understood as Wind (= Air). I will have to think about it more...

Quote:
The second issue is, the chinese elements have two or three cycles that are interpreted rather literally and materially, whereas the western elements seem to be metaphysical concepts rather than concrete concepts. I believe you know what I'm talking about: the productive and destructive cycles.


In fact, the four elements are understood in a similar fashion like in Chinese medicine in the traditional Western medical system (based on Hippocrates and Galen). There they are synonymous with the four humors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism

A German Wikipedia article equivalent to this one ("Humoralpathologie") mentions explicitly that the four humors were seen as under the influence not only of the signs (by their corresponding elemental attributes) but also by the planets, according to the scheme given above.

Moreover, the Aristotelian elements are also considered to be circulating, in a fashion not unlike the Chinese. See the interesting article "The Rotation of the Elements" by John Opsopaus:
https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/RE.html

Michael
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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 94
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your recommended book. Smile

I know the Chinese characters or names for the five elements and the planets are the same ,but it does not mean they are the same thing !!! And five elements only use the one character (金,木,水,火,土)not inculding another character which refers to star or planet (星)

For example :

金( Gold) in Chinese Five Elements means metals or west direction or autumn and it signifies war or reformation or cutting in general, that is quite different from astrology ,where she signifies peace and love !(Venus)

By the way , the ancients in China called Venus as “太白”. if in the morning ( orient before the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) Called “ 啟明”,if setting in the west ,( occident behind the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) she is called “長庚“

I indeed have no idea to associate the five elements with five planets,just because using the same name. I will read you provided me the article previously and come back to you . I think it will be very interesting topic.

And in western astrology ,the four element is also not associated to planets in such simple way.

Can we say Saturn associate with earth element ? Mars with Fire ? Mercury with water ? Jupiter with air?

I know Saturn is cold and dry, however , Saturn is not equal to the earth element itself just because using the same name in Chinese or has the similar quality as the earth element I have to say.

How about Mercury ,which is generally cold and dry , it belongs water? and you told us Venus belongs water because she is cold and moist according to your reference. How about the Moon she also is cold and moist why not she also belongs to water?

Excuse me, is there I having been misunderstanding your meaning? Because it seems you have found the fine correspondence between the planets and western four elements.

And Plato also associated the four elements with four geometric figures ,what do you think about it?

So ,I think we should be more careful about these concepts ,definitions or names.

And Bonatti said why Planets are super since they have another essence ( Bonatti on Basic astrology , tr. by Benjamin Dykes page 2) and he believed the motion of the heaven surrounding the elements changes fire and air and they change the other elements (namely water and earth ),together with ensouled and vegetative things ,and the rest of what has being under lunar circle ( and they exist in them), and things susceptible of change or alteration.(ibid Page 2-3)

note:
Fire and Air are regards as above masculine or active ( similar to Chinese Yang concept but not totally adopted). Water and Earth are regarded as below feminine passive (similar to Chinese Yin concept but not totally adopted)

Please pay attention to this phrase " Motion of heaven ", because I think Motion or Time ,is most important matter why astrology system does work !

Best Wishes

Ming


Last edited by MingWei Wang on Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:16 pm; edited 6 times in total
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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 94
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject: And about Yang and Yin Reply with quote

And about Yang and Yin

《淮南子》天文訓 (Tian wen xun section)
Huainanzi (2nd-century BCE) is a philosophical classic in ancient China.
天墜未形,馮馮翼翼,洞洞灟灟,故曰太昭。道始生虛廓,虛廓生宇宙,宇宙生氣。氣有涯垠,清陽者薄靡而為天,重濁者凝滯而為地。清妙之合專易,重濁之凝竭難,故天先成而地後定。天地之襲精為陰陽,陰陽之專精為四時,四時之散精為萬物。積陽之熱氣生火,火氣之精者為日;積陰之寒氣為水,水氣之精者為月;日月之淫為精者為星辰,天受日月星辰,地受水潦塵埃。
I try to interpret these old Chinese words as follow:
The universe is like chaos before created the heaven and the earth. And the light and active one raise and become the heaven , the heavy and passive one get down and become the earth. The light thing is without taking a form and be created easier and the heavy one has the fixed form which is hard to created ,hence it creates the light one firstly , and heavy latterly.
The Heaven called Yang, and the earth called Yin , Yang and Yin produce the four seasons and the four seasons produce the all things. The most hot place produces fire ,and the representative is the Sun, the most cold place produces water ,and the representative is the Moon. The Sun and the moon produces the Stars . The Sun and the moon and other Stars in the heaven and the earth or water or other elements in the Earth.

Another important concept of Yang and Yin is unity and opposites (especailly opposite), and is very similar to Hegel’s dialectics.Isn't it?

Is it interesting :-D
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ming,

Your translated quote from the Huinanzi is interesting! Which chapter is it from?

I am going to study the Huinanzi in the English translation of 2010.

Also, I agree with your observation that the Yin/Yang symbolism is reflecting the Hegelian dialectic.

I found this simple but revealing explanation of the Hegelian dialectic on another forum:

Quote:
Here's a 'pop-philosophy' summary. Hegel is talking about the evolution of knowledge (and/or art, which is probably why your theater arts friends are running across it). The classical understanding of science is as a linear 'building' process. We collect facts, and learn a bit about the subject, then we collect more facts, which helps us learn more, etc. Hegel argued for a radically different method of understanding, which he referred to as the 'dialectic'.

Hegel's idea was that when we start building up a theory (which he refers to as the 'thesis'), everything seems to go fine for awhile. Then, as we start delving into the implications of the theory, we find that the deeper consequences seem to contradict the basic tenets of the theory. Eventually, this leads to the development of a completely incompatible theory, even a directly contradictory theory (the 'antithesis'). Finally, we have a leap in our understanding, and create a brand-new theory that manages to combine these two apparently incompatible theories in a unique and unpredictable way (the 'synthesis'). A good example (post-Hegel, oddly enough) is the development of Newton's laws of motion into the realm of electro-dynamics in the late 19th and early 20th century, which eventually led to the synthesis of both Newton's laws and Maxwell's laws into modern quantum mechanics, which subsume those two (apparently contradictory, in several ways) systems.

In art, it's probably easier to see. Some years ago, you could have seen film reviewers turning up their noses at, say, the French 'film noir' movement, because it didn't 'follow the rules' of filmmaking. And of course, that was part of the point-the film noir creators didn't like the rules, and were striking out into something completely different and obviously incompatible with traditional movie production. But some years later, these two 'opposites' had been synthesized into a new and different mode of creation that subsumed both systems, and became its own standard. (So, of course, the rebels now have to find different things to rebel against. )

That's the basic gist. Hegel went on to talk about how the process can continue until everything is synthesized into one Absolute Idea, or something like that.

From http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=107611

I think, as astrologers arguing about all the different aspects of our art, we would do well to contemplate this!

Comments on your edited previous post soon to follow, Ming.

Have fun

Michael
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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 94
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Hi Ming,

Your translated quote from the Huinanzi is interesting! Which chapter is it from?



Tian wen xun is the chapter 3 of Huinanzi in Chinese edition. ( it means " Celestial Patterns (note 1)"or "Patterns of Heaven" if translated in English )

Note 1 : I am just finding an English translation edition ( I have no idea previously the Huinanzi had been translated into English already Very Happy ) and refer with their opinion of the difference between Celestial (noun) and astronomy, I change my word expression.

http://books.google.com.tw/books?id=mhQ9B0aRWEIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

It is the Chapter 3 exactly both in Chinese and English edition.

And pay attention to :

"The conjoined essences of Heaven and Earth produced yin and yang" quoted from the above book.

is better and more accurate translation than mine . Which I translated as The Heaven called Yang, and the earth called Yin is not fit in with the meaning of the original old chinese words .

Sorry for my mistake.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ming,

Now to the other part of your post.

Ming wrote: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:21 am
Quote:
I know the Chinese characters or names for the five elements and the planets are the same ,but it does not mean they are the same thing !!! And five elements only use the one character (金,木,水,火,土)not inculding another character which refers to star or planet (星)


Are you familiar with the astrological treatise by Ssu Ma Ch'ien? (A translation into English can be found in Derek Walter's book I mentioned.) This ancient author sees the planets and the elements as quite synonymous, indeed sometimes he simply uses the names of the elements for the planets; i.e. he writes “Wood in the North, and Earth in the South”, referring to Jupiter, and Saturn, respectively.

But, of course, the elements (in the Western and in the Eastern system) are not identically the planets. They are abstractions, really, but they find expression on all levels of existence. So the planets constitute just another level of analogy to the elements.

Quote:
By the way , the ancients in China called Venus as “太白”. if in the morning ( orient before the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) Called “ 啟明”,if setting in the west ,( occident behind the Sun and can be seen by naked eyes ) she is called “長庚“


Confused Could you translate these characters, please, for the benefit of the non-sinologist on this forum?

Quote:
And in western astrology ,the four element is also not associated to planets in such simple way.

Can we say Saturn associate with earth element ? Mars with Fire ? Mercury with water ? Jupiter with air?


Yes.

Quote:
I know Saturn is cold and dry, however , Saturn is not equal to the earth element itself just because using the same name in Chinese or has the similar quality as the earth element I have to say.


This attribution is not of my own making. It was introduced, as far as I know, by Raymond Lull, one of the great universal scholars in human history. Given the Aristotelian qualities of the planets, it was a logical conclusion.

Quote:
How about Mercury ,which is generally cold and dry , it belongs water?


Mercury is regarded as being of “mixed qualities” by most traditional authors, so he could not represent any element. Although I think he could be seen as representing the Quintessence, or Ether. Only Bonatti describes Mercury as having an “earthy” character, as far as I know.

Yes, in the Chinese system he belongs to Water, this doesn't seem to agree with the “Western” system.

Quote:
and you told us Venus belongs water because she is cold and moist according to your reference. How about the Moon she also is cold and moist why not she also belongs to water?


The Moon certainly also has a strong connection to Water! Several authors call her cold and moist, even though Al-Biruni calls her only moist. But already in ancient times, she was not really considered as a planet but as one of the Luminaries. I think, this may be the reason for not including her and the Sun in this scheme.

Quote:
And Plato also associated the four elements with four geometric figures ,what do you think about it?


This does not enter astrological tradition, as far as I know. Platon actually also included the Quintessence, and attributed the five regular polyhedrons (called the Platonic bodies) to the five elements then. In his Timaios, the elementary “atoms” everything consists of have their shapes. This theory seems to be rather of historical interest only, but interestingly, in modern quantum physics, there is a concept called “Loop Quantum Gravity” which assumes that space itself consists of very small units which could have such shapes. Moreover, the Platonic bodies continue to play a central role in what is called Sacred Geometry.

Quote:
And Bonatti said why Planets are super since they have another essence ( Bonatti on Basic astrology , tr. by Benjamin Dykes page 2) and he believed the motion of the heaven surrounding the elements changes fire and air and they change the other elements (namely water and earth ),together with ensouled and vegetative things ,and the rest of what has being under lunar circle ( and they exist in them), and things susceptible of change or alteration.(ibid Page 2-3)


Bonatti was using the Aristotelian cosmological scheme in which all the celestial bodies are eternal and consist of Ether. But I think this only looks like a contradiction, because, I mentioned before, the planets were never really seen as the same as the terrestrial elements, they are just analogous to them. Likewise, as you certainly know, the signs of the zodiac were thought of as belonging to the elements, at least since Valens.

Best wishes
Michael
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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 94
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Michael,

Thank you for your patience and detailed replies!

I had no idea of Shi-Ji (Records of the Grand Historian) included the astrology ,but when I checked the source , it indeed!Thumbs up

More and more interesting. Thank you.Very Happy

太白(tai bai),啟明(qi ming),長庚(chang geng). I just want to let you know Venus has different names in Chinese.

You can refer with this website:
http://www.cwb.gov.tw/V7e/knowledge/encyclopedia/as006.htm

quote from the above website:

"... when Venus is to the west of the Sun it will appear on the eastern horizon before sunrise. In ancient times, it was regarded as a morning star and was called "Qi Ming"(啟明). When Venus moves to the east of the Sun, it will appear on the western horizon after sunset. The ancient people regarded it as an evening star and called it "Chang Geng"(長庚). ..."

Best Wishes

Ming
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MingWei Wang



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Posts: 94
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Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your information and I just copy the contents which are selected from 《史記 天官書》(chi ji ,tian guan shu ) and refer to the relation between the five elements and five planets.

察日、月之行以揆歲星順逆。曰東方木,主春,日甲乙。義失者,罰出歲星。歲星贏縮,以其捨命國。所在國不可伐,可以罰人。其趨舍而前曰贏,退舍曰縮。贏,其國有兵不復;縮,其國有憂,將亡,國傾敗。其所在,五星皆從而聚於一舍,其下之國可以義致天下。

察剛氣以處熒惑。曰南方火,主夏,日丙、丁。禮失,罰出熒惑,熒惑失行是也。出則有兵,入則兵散。以其捨命國。(熒惑)熒惑為勃亂,殘賊、疾、喪、饑、兵。反道二舍以上,居之,三月有殃,五月受兵,七月半亡地,九月太半亡地。因與俱出入,國絕祀。居之,殃還至,雖大當小;久而至,當小反大。其南為丈夫[喪],北為女子喪。若角動繞環之,及乍前乍後,左右,殃益大。與他星斗,光相逮,為害;不相逮,不害。五星皆從而聚于一舍,其下國可以禮致天下。

歷斗之會以定填星之位。曰中央土,主季夏,日戊、己,黃帝,主德,女主象也。歲填一宿,其所居國吉。未當居而居,若已去而復還,還居之,其國得土,不乃得女。若當居而不居,既已居之,又西東去,其國失土,不乃失女,不可舉事用兵。其居久,其國福厚;易,福薄。

察日行以處位太白。曰西方,秋,(司兵月行及天矢)日庚、辛,主殺。殺失者,罰出太白。太白失行,以其捨命國。其出行十八舍二百四十日而入。入東方,伏行十一舍百三十日;其入西方,伏行三舍十六日而出。當出不出,當入不入,是謂失舍,不有破軍,必有國君之篡。

察日辰之會,以治辰星之位。曰北方水,太陰之精,主冬,日壬、癸。刑失者,罰出辰星,以其宿命國。

And take a note :

Saturn : 鎮星(an ancient name of Saturn) ,be called the middle or center earth ( the direction ) , the last month of the summer (season)

Jupiter: 歲星 ( an ancient name of Jupiter ),called the eastern wood (the direction), the spring ( season)

Mars: 熒惑 ( an ancient name of Mars), called the southern fire (the direction) ,the summer (season)

Venus: 太白( an ancient name of Venus), called the western metal (the direction) ,the fall or autumn (season)

Mercury: 辰星(an ancient name of Mercury), called the northern water ( the direction), the winter (season)
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ming,

Sorry about taking so much time for my reply! I needed to do a little research first.

Even though perhaps Chinese and Western astrology cannot be made exactly congruent with each other, I again see some remarkable coincidences between the two.

Since from traditional Western-style astrology, we know a parallel way of equating the cardinal directions, the seasons, and the elements with each other.

Earlier authors like Ptolemy ascribed the four qualities Hot, Cold, Wet, Dry to the spring, summer, autumn, and winter signs of the zodiac. Since in Aristotelian physics, the hottest element is Fire, the coldest Water, the moistest Air, and the driest Earth, the four seasonal quadrants were later seen as expressing the four elements accordingly (i.e. Paulus Alexandrinus.)

The attribution of the quadrants with the four cardinal direction as in the following enlistment is probably the most common scheme in the Western tradition; it can be found already in Abu Ma'sar. Even though, like every so often, there is no agreement between all the different authors.

If we now compare Chinese and Western astrology in this manner, we should clearly see the parallels:

C: East - Spring - Wood (a.k.a. Wind)
W: East - Spring - Air

C: South - Summer - Fire
W: South - Summer - Fire

C: West - Autumn - Metal
W: West - Autumn - Earth Comment: There seems to be a discrepancy here – however, interestingly, in the Chinese list Saturn/Earth is irregularly linked with the (autumn-like) last month of summer.

C: North - Winter - Water
W: North - Winter - Water

Is all this incidental? Perhaps these parallels are hinting at an influence from ancient astrology on bazi Or people in completely different cultures simply reached the same conclusions independently when they were studying these topics! Or - Eastern and Western esoteric traditions share a mysterious common ancient root (unbeknownst to orthodox historical science)...

Food for thought, anyway, I believe!

Ming, I would like to know, does your system of bazi take into account the real positions of the planets at all? Or is it all numerical abstraction?

Best wishes
Michael
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MingWei Wang



Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 94
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Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, Michael,

Haven’t heard from you so long . How are you?

I just wanted to tell you that I might have a bit extra time to explore Chinese astrology further since my study on western astrology was on its orbit.

Best wishes.

Ming Wei
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ming,

Thanks. Nice to hear from you.

Do you have any suggestion what we could talk about?
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, it doesn't look like it. So I suggest as topic:

The 24 Solar Terms.

Please talk a little about what you know regarding their characteristics and/or uses.
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MingWei Wang



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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Michael,

It was so sorry for the delayed reply.

Just compiling a table of Solar Longitude, Solar Term, Earthly Branch, Month Sequence for your reference today ( please see the below link for a PDF document ) ,I think it will show their relation clearer, and I shall introduce you the interaction between each Earthly Branch by some tables, of which you may be aware very similar to Aspect in Western Astrology and you may notice as well the starting point of each month in Chinese calendar which bazi uses was different from Western Astrology even though they are both base on Solar movement.

China had its own ancient astronomy. 十二次 was very similar to 12 Signs please see the following link:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/十二次

May your wife can help you in Japanese.

See you next time.

Cheers

Ming

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxaWiNJxn4pobkxmX1Byd1I0dnM/view?usp=sharing
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about the delay, Ming Wei, I will wrap my head around your links as soon as I get to it. Busy with other stuff. I hope that you can still stay tuned for a while.

Best regards,
Michael
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