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Prominent planets never ruling the time periods
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Prominent planets never ruling the time periods Reply with quote

Assume that a given native is supposed to be prominent in a certain area of life. If the planet that is supposed to bring the native to prominence never becomes a chronocrator in one of the major times, or becomes a major time lord too late in one's life, does that mean that the natal promise will not be fulfilled? (Or perhaps the native will be less prominent, through the minor chronocratorship.)

This mainly applies to time lord systems that follow the zodiacal signs. I am thinking of decennials and zodiacal releasing in particular.

For example, Lot of Spirit in Gemini, Mercury in Aquarius. Aquarius will never become the Level 1 Time Lord in the native's life-time (Gemini 20, Cancer 25, Leo 19, Virgo 20...and the native will most likely be in the grave after that). Lords of Leo and Cancer are both not well placed...so the native may be doomed to inactivity/passivity, despite indication of high success in career and praxis?



My thoughts are a little messy at the moment, so the example may be a bit confusing.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Prominent planets never ruling the time periods Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
This mainly applies to time lord systems that follow the zodiacal signs. I am thinking of decennials and zodiacal releasing in particular.


It's true that many people never reach their 10th from fortune (general period), in zodiacal releasing, but the sub periods are long enough to make a lasting impact. It seems to help when the general times (lasting several years) are favorable because one has a long time to build up progress under the favorable "winds", but it isn't always necessary. Not all things are due to ones own impact (if you are thinking of spirit releasing), there's fortune releasing to consider and other factors to consider as well.

In your example of ZR Gemini with Mercury in Aquarius, if Aquarius has the general times, then the important period is where Saturn happens to be (in the L2 sub period - Schmidt calls this the "focus period"). In the Gemini period, Mercury in Aquarius becomes important at about 12 years of age.

I've been finding a lot just by looking at parallel periods prior to the current one. The more you know about a persons life, the more obvious it becomes just by looking at what was happening at the same level in a previous sub period. This is probably easiest to do at L3. There aren't that many previous L2's (but I've seen these have significant parallels as well). Very often the same themes are present and have even extrapolated the house influence after identifying the theme.

For instance I've noticed that all my Sag L2's in fortune releasing have been bad and for good reason; I have Mars in superior square in a diurnal chart. Surgeries, financial difficulties, parents divorce when I was young, etc have resulted each time because malefics witness the place and Venus is in aversion and Jupiter is sextile (too weak according to Valens to break the malice of the square). Once you have the pattern, then you can extrapolate into the future. In work with my clients, the most difficult thing is getting past what they don't want to talk about because this technique is very revealing and exposes things that most people feel very uncomfortable facing up to. Despite confidentiality agreements, most people hide things even from themselves.
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Konrad



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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curtis,

are you seeing Zodiacal Releasings as purely quantitative and then using some other time-lord system to decide where in your life this Mars will shows his malice, or are you using the Zodiacal Releasings as both quantitative and descriptive of the events represented?
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure what you mean by "quantitative", but it is definitely descriptive. Whatever happens in the previous instance of the same period at the same level seems to repeat over and over again.
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Konrad



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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean does it just shows ups and downs without description, or describe the events while showing these ups and downs.

Ok, so what if you have a Releasing period showing prosperity but a difficult period shown by directing the Hyleg through the bounds or the Decennials? Do they conflict, or work together or work differently?
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that it is both descriptive and quantitative.

It is possible to see these patterns without even looking at directions of the hyleg. The difference between seeing say a 10th from fortune period under a Mars square Sun (hyleg) vs Jupiter trine Sun in the PD's might be one of in one case someone becomes highly visible due to a disagreement with a superior and a lawsuit in the news vs one becomes highly visible due to a promotion or some new breakthrough in one's profession.

The ZR is more specific at the lower levels. For example, in 1988 after being involved in the Church for a few years, I got back into astrology (March 16th, 1988). I remember the day because I took up a part time job driving school bus for kids at Elmcrest Childrens Center. There was a copy of the morning news at the back shop which had Jeanne Dixon's daily horoscopes and it reminded me of how when I delivered papers back in the mid-70's I used the same based upon the days of the week (for example when it was a Tuesday, I would read Virgo because I had Mars in Virgo, if Wednesday, I'd read Leo because Mercury was there, etc). Now 1988 was the start of my L1 30 year Aquarius period which is the 4th. Astrology is for some reason affiliated with Aquarius, but that which is hidden is also a 4th house matter and Jupiter is there (knowledge) so this whole time has been for me marked by actions that have to do with understanding the hidden meanings of things.

Now, in 1993 PH started and I was in a Cancer L2 period and found an important teacher (Schmidt - 9th house). Then the Leo period (what is known as the foreshadowing period) took up the times and I wrote the Zodiacal Aphesis software which was the first windows program for any Hellenistic technique (Rob Hand did have a DOS version just prior to this) that did ZR, Decennials, etc. But after its release, I got word that Matrix was coming out with "Windows on the Tradition in 1998" which was the Virgo period so Mars cut off activity for a while. In June 2000 I went to Cumberland to see Schmidt again and he was doing a conference and I got word that the program wasn't doing so well so I started working on Timaeus (which wasn't Hellenistic astrology, but more for electional and horary and a precursor to Delphic Oracle). By 2003 I was finally ready to work on Delphic Oracle but Schmidt couldn't help me due to his legal obligations to Matrix so I proceeded on my own. It was late April when I started the .dpr file. I didn't realize it at the time, but within the 30 year Aquarius period, that was the beginning of the "focus period" which is said to be the time when what is indicated by the general period "produces fruit". I came out with about 3 versions which were largely ignored by the astro community (in 1995 I had begged Cosmic Patterns, Astrolabe and Esoteric Tech to put these techniques we were finding in PH translations but was ignored). Finally in 2005 I got recognition and Cosmic Patterns, Astrolabe, astrology.com and several others tried to hire me. That was the loosing of the bond in 2005. The forshadowing period of 1997 repeated in 2005 (it was to the 10th house where I have fortune and the Sun in Leo). In 1998 I ran into obstacles (Windows on the Tradition) and the same happened in 2007 when controversy surrounded Schmidt's work and I was being attacked for having the "System of Hermes". That was the Mars in Virgo 11th house of "astrological community". There's a lot more that I could have said, but it would probably go over the line in matters of confidentiality. When you find that to be an issue, you know you are getting close to the truth.

I'm now in the "full circle" period as Chris Brennan calls it. At first I thought this might mean the end (completion), but I arrived back home (4th house) in Pulaski, NY. Because I was also doing astrology during the 27 year Capricorn period prior to 1988 (primarily back in the 70's) I think it's safe to say that this isn't the end, but I do now have a much deeper understanding of what Valens was seeing.
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Larxene



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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...okay, so the prominent planet having L2 or L3 chronocratorships will be able to produce the desired results despite never reaching L1 chronocratorship.

You said not all things are due to the actions of the native, which is true. But in the case where Fortune is cadent, for both whole signs and quadrant house, then it is said that Spirit is what brings the native to prominence, no?

An example I have in mind has Fortune in cadent 12th while Spirit is in succeedent 2nd. Neither are well placed, but Lord of Fortune is 10th from Fortune, an exalted malefic out of sect and in a favourable house. Lord of Spirit is 10th from the Ascendant, in its own terms though under the beams.

In this situation, would not one's actions be the main source of success?

I have to note that in this example, the native, though not rich, often had what he wanted in his early life (in terms of money and possessions). In his current situation, he is slightly in need of money, though it is more because of his thriftiness that prevents him from using his savings than a real lack of money.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Hmm...okay, so the prominent planet having L2 or L3 chronocratorships will be able to produce the desired results despite never reaching L1 chronocratorship.


I think you're mixing up eminence considerations with levels of releasing. It's not like that. Yes in some cases L1 periods will behave like "higher level" of eminence because the prevailing winds will stay the same for longer, but first you must make sure that the nativity is in fact eminent... suitably placed trigon lords, the lots falling propitiously and their lords relative to fortune, and a sequence of time lords that does not constantly change the wind causing interruptions or emphasizes the prevailing wind.

Quote:
You said not all things are due to the actions of the native, which is true. But in the case where Fortune is cadent, for both whole signs and quadrant house, then it is said that Spirit is what brings the native to prominence, no?


Not necessarily. Look at Johnny Carson's chart (I did a recent youtube video on Carson: http://youtu.be/Or-JF98q73Y). Sometimes tuche (luck) trumps actions but more often they work together (Valens says that they sometimes even swap positions - See my article and explanation of Obama's chart: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/election2012.html)
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Larxene



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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I wasn't mixing up eminence with levels. What I mean is, even in non-eminent nativities, the most well-placed planet in their chart tends to be the one providing them with the most benefits. I was under the impression that the level 1 periods is where the effects are strongest, and so my argument was that if the level 1 zodiacal releasing never reaches that prominent planet, then the benefits from that specific planet will be less.

From our discussion, it seems you are implying that the effects are only greater because the time period is longer; there is nothing special about the levels otherwise. However you also mentioned "general times", distinguishing L1 from the other levels. It is not known if there are any other differences aside from duration at this point.

For the record, the native I mentioned above has the day and night trigon lords angular by sign and in their dignities but under the beams. The co-operating trigon lord is succeedent, in detriment and retrograde. No addiitional afflictions. I don't know if this counts as eminent.

I have watched the Johnny Carson video before. I watched it again, but it does not seem to be relevant to my question, namely, whether angularity decides which Lot will produce more goodness for the native. Throughout the video, you mainly talked about the Releasing of Spirit, how it affected his career and actions. Fortune was mentioned towards the end, in regards to the person's health and death. There was no comparison between the two Lots.

Or do you mean that the Moon/Jupiter/Fortune combination is what provides for his activity? I can see some connection, but still...

I shall read your article on the elections later. I want to slowly savour your articles. Smile
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
From our discussion, it seems you are implying that the effects are only greater because the time period is longer; there is nothing special about the levels otherwise. However you also mentioned "general times", distinguishing L1 from the other levels. It is not known if there are any other differences aside from duration at this point.


The L1 period if favorable generally helps of course, but this is not where you get the most information. Most periods of this length are too broad; for example, I'm in an Aquarius (4th house) 30 year period and the main thing that can be said about that time is that it has been about searching the hidden nature of things. Most of the time I did this in obscurity, it was only when I hit Leo L2 (bond loosing) in 2005 and particularly Taurus L3 (10th from fortune) that I was "highly visible" and all were angular from fortune.

The other thing you have to consider is that some L1 periods (or L2, etc) never come into focus. A Libra period that is 10th from fortune that happens to be in Capricorn when the domicile and exaltation lord falls in Virgo for instance because Libra periods only go for 8 years.

Quote:
I have watched the Johnny Carson video before. I watched it again, but it does not seem to be relevant to my question, namely, whether angularity decides which Lot will produce more goodness for the native. Throughout the video, you mainly talked about the Releasing of Spirit, how it affected his career and actions. Fortune was mentioned towards the end, in regards to the person's health and death. There was no comparison between the two Lots.


Yes there was. It was because Carson reached his 10th from fortune (in ZR Spirit) in the early 60's that he became famous, but he probably wouldn't have reached that level of fame if Saturn and Mercury hadn't both been conjunct the ascendant. Those were fortune angles being used in reputation/spirit and they were cadent. The trigon lords of the sect light are supposed to be judged for angularity relative to the "cosmic" angles.

Quote:
Or do you mean that the Moon/Jupiter/Fortune combination is what provides for his activity? I can see some connection, but still...


Yes. Note the similarity to George Bush and Adolph Hitler who also have the same combination.
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Konrad



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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, Curtis, thanks for your candour.

I'm having a little trouble following you without a chart. Anyway, could you define what a "foreshadowing period" is? I'm not sure I have heard that term before. I understand the "bearing fruit" period, I have seen this play out many times in other charts.

But, basically,you are seeing the Releasings as higher in the chain than directing the Hyleg through the bounds? Your idea about the difference between a Sun square Mars and trine Jupiter is interesting. It is something I will have to investigate. What is your experience with the same sign producing different results depending on the sign above it? By that, I mean, in my own chart, I have had a Sagittarius period show disappointments (Jupiter in fall) when the Sagittarius period is beneath a Scorpio period (Mars out of sect, conjoined Jupiter), but in a Leo period show a gain in Spirit's matters (Sun sextile Jupiter from the sign of the MC).
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
I'm having a little trouble following you without a chart. Anyway, could you define what a "foreshadowing period" is?


It is the same sign that has the times in the sub period as the loosing of the bond but before the loosing of the bond. For example, if it is a Capricorn period L1, and the following Cancer L2 is a foreshadowing period which hints at what is to come during the loosing of the bond to Cancer.

Quote:
But, basically,you are seeing the Releasings as higher in the chain than directing the Hyleg through the bounds?


No. I'm just really used to getting a lot more information out of the ZR method at the sub levels. The general periods for ZR are much too broad and last so long that many different things happen during them and it can be difficult to get at the main "theme" of the period. Time lord sequences are also different in the sense that they represent "processes" (what Schmidt would characterize as the aorist tense) of an activity that is ongoing. Whereas primary directions, progressions and transits tend to be seen as "hits" or "events" that show a point in time that is representative of a symbol. Originally though, the precursor to primaries (the circumambulations of Dorotheus for example) was meant to lay down a time lord sequence such as directions through the bounds. Schmidt said that the paradigm behind this fit the "accusation and acquittal" logic of Aristotle for the bounds, but that the encounter of rays was a form of Stoic logic because it followed an "if .. then" rationale.
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I determine what the L1 theme is for those longer periods is to ask what was the same or a constant in that subject during those times. So for reputation and actions (spirit), I've been in the 30 years of Aquarius L1 in the 4th house. Astrology and investigating the hidden meanings of things has been a constant throughout since 1988 especially (though before as well but less consistently under Capricorn L1). So while the general theme is that, the sub periods represent various applications of those actions. BTW in 1993 I was in a Gemini 8th house (not Cancer as I said above) and started reading the PH translations (old idle books). I didn't actually meet Schmidt until Aug 1994 under a 10th house profection year and it wasn't until after summer 1995 that I started traveling down to Berkeley Springs for the weekend workshops (that was the Cancer 9th house period). The Taurus L2 period (7th house) was when I started doing consultations again after a hiatus in the 80's...
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Kenneth Johnson



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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In India, where chronocrators remain the principal method of prediction, this question is often raised in much the same manner that Larxene has raised it: If an especially powerful planet never becomes the major Time Lord, does it still have an opportunity to give its full results?

The general consensus is: No, not really. It may, however, give powerful or even spectacular results IF it becomes a secondary chronocrator for another planet which allows it to (using a Hellenistic term) conduct its business. For example, let us suppose that Jupiter rules the Ascendant and is fortunately positioned in the favorable Fifth House in association with the exalted Lord of the Ninth, but the native will not enter Jupiter's major time lord cycle until the age of 85 or thereabouts. It is generally said that Jupiter cannot give the full results that it might potentially give IF it were the principal Time Lord. But when it combines as secondary time lord with other well placed planets -- for example, a benefic with dignities that lies in a house trining the Fifth -- it can yield fairly extraordinary results.

As for how such issues may have been interpreted in Hellenistic astrology, I guess that all we can do is hunt for clues in the sources available to us, hope for more translations, and keep our records of our own practical experiences, as the posters here on this topic have done with such remarkable alacrity! Thanks to all you Hellenists for your research!
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenneth Johnson wrote:
In India, where chronocrators remain the principal method of prediction, this question is often raised in much the same manner that Larxene has raised it: If an especially powerful planet never becomes the major Time Lord, does it still have an opportunity to give its full results?

The general consensus is: No, not really. It may, however, give powerful or even spectacular results IF it becomes a secondary chronocrator for another planet which allows it to (using a Hellenistic term) conduct its business.


Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it. If one takes the nautical metaphor into account, then the top level chronocratorship is like the jet stream, the sub periods are like winds at the local level. One can get far in the jet stream (or go far in life). I've seen charts like Bob Dylans though that hit several favorable sub periods in a row while avoiding the L1 10th from fortune and still "make it" in life.
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