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Horary houses match natal - please help!

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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:08 am    Post subject: Horary houses match natal - please help! Reply with quote

Well, this has really spooked me – I kid you not.

At the end of my first horary post I mentioned that some synchronicity caused me to ask a follow-up question which I would later post. The question occurred at 11.53 PM, so I noted the time and cast it the next day.

Deb and I were in the middle of the Regio/Placidus discussion I think; or else I had cast the horary automatically with Placidus.

Anyway – as always, I did the “helicopter view” – what, if anything stands out about this chart. . .
- grand trine (NN, MC & Pluto conjunct POF)
- a grand square (Jupiter, Saturn, NN and Mars).
- and with that stellium in the 4th house, all roads are eventually going to lead to Rome methinks, and then it struck me. . .

I was staring at the houses of my natal chart - all cusps within 0.5 deg!! (Except the 3rd which was 5 degrees separation)

Well, I’ve only recently read about sacred time and space as related to horary and although I felt that when the question was asked, (which is why I noted the time in the first place, it was synchronicity again, not a planned question), I can tell you it happened all over again at the moment I recognised these houses – time stopped, my eyes misted and I felt the cosmos had just tapped me on the shoulder and said “pay attention”. (Even now as I’m describing this for you, I’m getting shivers.)

Remember I had cast the horary with Placidus and all my natal work is Placidus (please – I’m quite willing to change to Regio for horary but I can’t change all those natal, progressed and return charts as well! I’ve got to keep some structure here or I’ll be all over the place like a madwoman’s breakfast!).

So I recast the horary with Regio hoping it might go away – and it did, a little. But I still can’t get my head around this in order to grapple with the question. (I’d like to with-hold that at this point in time if you all don’t mind, I promise I’ll post it later - I’ve just got to get this sorted first).

Then I noticed that something else felt familiar. . .so I checked. . .and sure enough. . . my solar return 2004/05 Midheaven is at 14.19 sag. Synchronicity again?

Maybe I’m making a whole lot of something from nothing - I know how rare this sort of line up is in natal – maybe it’s more common in horary, has anyone come across it before in horary?

Question data: 9 March 2005 at 11.53 PM Adelaide, South Australia 138e35-34s55
GMT + 10.5 (daylight saving time)

I’ve sent my birth data to Deb as well, so she can verify this and maybe post both the charts when she has time. Maybe I wasn’t seeing straight – maybe I just made some elementary, stupid mistake?

This has, as I said, really rattled me. So if you have an opinion or observation you care to share, please just hop right in here. I need to get my head around this before I can go on.

Whoooof. . .

Sungem Sad
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can’t remember the reference for this at the moment, but it is quite usual to have the degree of the natal ascendant (for the querent) rising in the horary too. This is especially the case for those who are new to horary. I’m sure it’s not so usual to have all the house cusps in alignment, but the correspondence of ascendant degree is one of the ways that we judge the chart valid. I get so used to seeing these sorts of ‘co-incidences’ that I hardly pay them any attention any more. I personally get a much stronger resonance to the degree of my natal Moon. That falls on the ascendant of a great deal of the horaries I have drawn for myself. When I see it appearing in client horaries, I know I am going to get a particularly interesting chart that I can feel confident with.
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gobsmacked ...right. . . chart's radical. . . so I should just get on with it?

I'm not normally such a drama queen Embarassed Nor am I usually secretive (though I can keep a secret, trust me - I'm a Gemini Laughing ) I suppose I just have the idea that I should offer the forum something before expecting others to do any work on my stuff - on the other hand, why should I expect others to interrupt what they're doing and/or offer opinions on the fly just because I'm ready. . .so hey! . . .knock y'selves out! Laughing

The question was: "Do I have talent/ability as a medical intuitive?"

My "impression" is that the chart is telling me what happened was not accident or coincidence - that I actually did it, (more when I post my work-up). Will I go down that path? Do I want to go down that path? Couldn't pick something easy - oh no. Frankly, it had never occurred to me before this. Confused and I don't know that those questions can be answered from this chart.

I get so used to seeing these sorts of ‘co-incidences’ that I hardly pay them any attention any more

Ah!. . . so you get to relive your early days vicariously through us newbies! Laughing - it's just another reason to like you Deb, you're such a comfort Laughing
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Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once read - I believe in a book by Karen Hamaeker-Zondag - that if a horary or a solar/lunar return shows exactly the same houses as teh natal chart, it is just an indication that (in case of horary) the question that is asked is important for the client. Or (in case of a solar/lunar return) that that year/month will be somehow important for the client.
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Haku

it is just an indication that (in case of horary) the question that is asked is important for the client. Or (in case of a solar/lunar return) that that year/month will be somehow important for the client.

Yes, I understood that to be the case with natal returns and it's not that unusual, as you say, to see the ASC or MC change places or line up with cusps in solar and particularly lunar charts. However I hadn't come across any mention of it in the horary reading I've done so far - so it's good of you to help set me at ease with it Smile . . .Thank you.

Hi Deb

Look at moi!
My that was quick - and yes, I do believe it's much better than the red cross Very Happy Hoping others approve also, I am. . .

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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well. . . almost all week I’ve had my head buried in that 8th house post, got lost and found several times. Boy oh boy but you lot are tough company! Leery Must mean I’m going to get some pretty terrific tutoring though! Very Happy

One thing I know is that I’m never doing another chart that’s got an 8th house!

Well, maybe I’ll make an exception for this one.

I had planned to be back with delineation by now - I’m in to it, I’m just not out the other side yet and this weekend isn’t looking too good either. “Life’s what happens while you’re making other plans” (John Lennon?)

Soooo . . .I thought at least I could tantalize those who may be interested with another tidbit - and make my next post shorter at the same time – by giving you the background to the question.

I’ve had a small (about ¼” across) sebaceous cyst for about 5-6 years, smooth, not discoloured in any way and no visible enlarged pore – just a bump really. It wasn’t a bother and was hidden by my hair, but I would rub it and press it unthinkingly, so on a doctor’s visit in early December I asked for a referral to a specialist, since I knew it was a simple procedure done in the surgery. The letter is still in my mail tray.

A couple of weeks after Christmas, 2 books written by medical intuitives leapt into my hands, in the same lunch hour from different book stalls (honestly Mummy the puppy just followed me home). The books were ‘The Journey’ by Brandon Bays and ‘Conversations with the Body’ by Robyn Elizabeth Welch. These are the first and only books I’ve ever read on the subject.

So I went home and scoffed them down and a few days later I was sitting mulling over what I’d read and decided to try a ‘conversation with the body’ – hmmm – what to focus on – oh yes, that cyst. So I concentrated and did what Welch had described and found it surprisingly easy to visualize what I wanted to do. Forgot about it for a few days, then went back and did the procedure again and then completely forgot about it.

Fast forward to last Wednesday week when I put up my first post on the income question. I was having a cup of coffee afterwards, thinking about the forum and ‘worrying’ the cyst when all of a sudden it started to exude this stuff. So I dealt with it (I’ll spare you the gory details) and made another coffee and started thinking about that, (the cyst not the coffee, tho' I do think about coffee a lot Smile ).

What caused that to happen? Why now after 5 or 6 years? Then I remembered doing the procedure. Quite frankly I thought I was having myself on, it was a bit unbelievable to say the least. However I couldn’t get away from the synchronicity (there’s that word again) of it all.

Hey presto! Let’s ask the question.

. . . and here we all are.

(By the way, there was absolutely no mark or redness the next morning, you would never have known it had been there).

To be continued. . .
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think the time has come . . .

I’m Jupiter signified by ASC and oh! Medical intuitive huh? Good one Sungem…and the house and significator for that would be? At first I was thinking 6th = disease and 9th=higher mind – that certainly leads to their rulers Venus and Sun in the 4th but I can’t have two. My eye keeps being drawn by Saturn, Jupiter and Mars. What is Mars doing over there in the 2nd? Finance/income never entered my head with this question - I was too surprised! Then I discover it’s the strongest planet with 22 – I thought it would be Jupiter (17). So 2nd is also possessions, values = personal resources. Okay I’m going with the 2nd house as the significator for medical intuitive on the basis that it would definitely be a personal resource of the mind,body,spirit variety..

So the dignities and strengths. Saturn is -10 and considering my immersion in the 8th house last week let’s get it over with Smile

This chart is about the loss and death (8th) of a cyst (Mars opposition=carbuncles, left ear), with no pain (Saturn is not only in its detriment but also retrograde). I have always experienced Saturn as patience and restriction and his placement and condition is telling me that after waiting 5 years he is now powerless to stop or delay this loss any longer. However, he is in mutual reception with Jupiter by exaltation and he receives a trine from the Sun and Jupiter is applying to sextile. There seems to be some support here perhaps reinforcing the painless demise in this case – the Sun also rules pimples on the face and Jupiter the left ear again.

The cyst was just above my jaw, directly in front of and level with, my right ear. Do you think I was looking the other way when Heaven glanced or is the chart saying "we don’t have right so we’re telling you twice that this is no mistake?" Confused

Jupiter is also retrograde but is dignified by term and also has mutual reception by sign with Venus which is combust. Everyone seems to have one hand tied behind their back! Fortunately, as the focus of the T-square, Jupiter is still powerful in 11th house of hopes and wishes and good fortune, its house of joy – I have long wished the cyst to be “out damned spot!” - and by strength (17) and by sextile to ASC. Jupiter is comfortable in Libra, it also rules the higher mind and to quote Deb’s book “things always happen for a reason” The glyph = signature of contact with divine illumination (book again). In addition it is a partile trine to Neptune in 3rd (I really don’t think we can leave the outers out of it this time) – higher communication again – or am I deceiving myself?

Mars is exalted in Capricorn and dignified by term and is basically telling everyone else (Mars, Jupiter, Saturn t-square) that it’s his party – he’s in Saturn’s sign and Jupiter’s house – all three planets are in succedent houses – Mars is purposeful energy, action, initiative. He is aggressive and can pierce, penetrate and cut (none of which I did) and so it must be dispersion or eruption of the cyst itself. Mars is square Jupiter and the NNode and opposition Saturn (Grand Square) and I don’t know how to read this except to say perhaps when Mars declared it time to challenge Saturn, Jupiter and the NNode were dissipating the aggression through Jupiter’s sextile to the ASC and trine to Neptune and the NNode’s Grand Trine to the Pluto-Fortuna conj and MC. (?????).

Which brings us to the Moon, which is only just above Saturn in strength at -5. Saturn rules the 4th but none of the four planets want anything to do with him so they’ve all squished into Pisces. The Moon is also under the Sun’s beams? So that means … it’s dissipated? I couldn’t find much to recommend the Moon as co-significator except disease on the left side and colour of white or pale yellowish white (correct). However it is separating from the conjunction with Uranus which is explosive and unexpected and “shatters boundaries imposed by Saturn” = it was an emotional impulse originally. Seen sometimes as a 'higher octave' of Mercury, Uranus enables communication without the conventional mechanism of speech and physical conduction methods. (Uranus on Skyscript). This seems the strongest aspect/planet in the 4th despite the Moon applying to conjunct both Venus and Sun.

Venus is exalted in Pisces but is combust. It is square the ASC …ummm I did it at home? It was a personal action?

And finally I don’t think Pluto can be ignored in this instance particularly since it is in the first house as another co-significator conjunct Fortuna (opportunity and/or good fortune) and trine both MC and NNode. As a figure of the underworld or hidden things, he is standing where everyone can see him. This seems apt: “The house position of Pluto also indicates in what way a person will manifest occult tendencies and otherwise use the subtler faculties of the mind and will”. (The Astrologer’s Handbook, Sakoian and Acker, p229)

I think that’s just about all I can really see, except perhaps Mercury all by itself indicating the creative mind that initiated this whole thing back in January.

The thing that has surprised and amazed me most of all is that this chart is telling exactly what happened - but am I then left to assume that means an affirmative answer to the question? And what am I supposed to do with this – what is the point of having this ability if there’s no outlet? I turned the chart (2nd to 1st) to see what would happen, saw Saturn in the 7th and turned it back again!! Shocked

Well, that’s my take on things – if anyone’s still following this saga, I’d be happy to receive any comments, additions, suggestions, corrections and critiques anyone cares to offer. Leery

PS – the Part of Ability, just for curiosity, is 19 Pisces 49

cheers and thanks for your interest,
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