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Domicile rulership in the sidereal zodiac
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, it seems that the domicile rulership remains the same, and we can assume that the exaltation rulership also remains the same (no one answered my thread, I take that as a "yes"), and the bounds and decans do not have to be changed. What about the triplicity rulers? I think we can also assume this is the same.

Assumptions x100 Very Happy


In this situation, one of the implications is that the rulerships of the houses are different among the two systems.

So one of things I want to ask is, which system explains the character of the native better?

For example, in the tropical zodiac, my Ascendant is ruled by Venus. In the sidereal zodiac, my Ascendant is ruled by Mars. In reality, I am more Venusian than Martial. I am a peace-loving, conflict-averse, timid and generally cheerful person, though sometimes depressed (because of the square from Saturn), and I like beautiful things, music and poetry. I am neither brave nor reckless, not athletic nor born with a strong body, not quick acting, although I take offence easily I am not an angry person, nor do I speak in an abrasive manner most of the time.

But that is just one person's experience. What do you guys think?
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Konrad



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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I wouldn't look at the Asc lord to find out something like that. Secondly, I doubt you mean it, but you appear to be wanting the Sidereal astrologers to explain themselves to you only for you to inform them that they are in error. Since people in general have to be right, and there are a lot more Tropical astrologers, this is something Sidereal astrologers have to contend with a lot.

If you genuinely want to know, I would advise using time lords to test the zodiacs. Timing is generally specific, so it is something thst can't be easily explained away.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the sidereal forum, and not the place to ask siderealists to explain themselves, as Konrad says. I think you can safely assume that anyone using a sidereal zodiac does so because he/she finds it works better than the tropical one. Almost everyone outside of India who forms an interest in astrology meets with the tropical zodiac first, so that becoming a siderealist typically requires an active 'conversion', not generally undertaken without reason.

All traditional rulership schemes were in use before the tropical zodiac (that is, the one equating 0 Aries with the vernal equinox) became standard, and they continue to be used with sidereal zodiac definitions.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
...

So one of things I want to ask is, which system explains the character of the native better?

For example, in the tropical zodiac, my Ascendant is ruled by Venus. In the sidereal zodiac, my Ascendant is ruled by Mars. In reality, I am more Venusian than Martial.
I am a peace-loving,
conflict-averse,
timid and generally cheerful person, though sometimes depressed (because of the square from Saturn), and
I like beautiful things, music and poetry.
I am neither brave nor reckless, not athletic nor born with a strong body, not quick acting,
although I take offence easily I am not an angry person, nor do I speak in an abrasive manner most of the time.


But that is just one person's experience. What do you guys think?


That sounds like very level headed docile taurean bull . Wink
You are the first one of that type , ever been in a China shop ??

PD Surprised
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Okay, it seems that the domicile rulership remains the same, and we can assume that the exaltation rulership also remains the same... and the bounds and decans do not have to be changed. What about the triplicity rulers? I think we can also assume this is the same.

Larxene, I'm sorry I've been out of touch on Skyscript for awhile. You are right that the rulerships, exaltations, bounds, triplicity lords and decans are the same in the sidereal zodiac. Actually their origin was in the sidereal zodiac, and only later adopted to the tropical system. But I don't want to get into an argument from tropical astrologers on this issue here on the sidereal forum. Such an argument would serve no useful purpose. It's best to simply test out these categories in work with actual charts. I have many zodiac studies I could post if only I could find the time.

Quote:
In this situation, one of the implications is that the rulerships of the houses are different among the two systems.

So one of things I want to ask is, which system explains the character of the native better?

Ah, that is the key question, and a question that the majority of astrologers seem to go out of their way to avoid. Both Martin Gansten and myself find the sidereal zodiac more precise in using the dignities, exalatations and other facets of astrology which date from ancient times.

Quote:
For example, in the tropical zodiac, my Ascendant is ruled by Venus. In the sidereal zodiac, my Ascendant is ruled by Mars. In reality, I am more Venusian than Martial. I am a peace-loving, conflict-averse, timid and generally cheerful person, though sometimes depressed (because of the square from Saturn), and I like beautiful things, music and poetry.

I am neither brave nor reckless, not athletic nor born with a strong body, not quick acting, although I take offence easily I am not an angry person, nor do I speak in an abrasive manner most of the time.

I would guess that your Venusian qualities and lack of Martian traits would have to do with Venus in aspect to your Sun or Moon, and the lack of Mars aspects to these bodies. In many years of astrological work I’ve found that the sidereal ascendant lord is a focal point for aspects. (The navamsa chart often highlights psychological planetary energies that are lacking in the natal chart.)

In my own case Jupiter is my ascendant lord (in both zodiacs) but I’m not at all a Jupitarian person. Saturn is conjoined to Jupiter, and I have many Saturnian traits.

If your speech tends to be on the non-abrasive peaceful side, you may have Venus in aspect to Mercury? Mars in aspect to Mercury is often sharp tongued or quick in retort to others.

I’ll continue this reply later as I have to leave the computer for now.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Quote:
If you genuinely want to know, I would advise using time lords to test the zodiacs. Timing is generally specific, so it is something thst can't be easily explained away.

I think that using time lords to test zodiacs is rather esoteric and a few steps away from the basics of dignities and sign gender, for example. One way I’ve tested sign gender is to take the birth charts of women who are commonly known as ultra feminine or “sex goddesses.” Jyotish teaches that when the Ascendant, Sun and Moon are in female signs, this produces a very feminine woman whereas if these are in male signs they produce a more masculine or "tomboy" type woman. One outstanding example is Katherine Hepburn:

Katherine Hepburn, Actress: Mercury and Sun in Aries (four other planets in masculine signs: Mars, Uranus in Sagittarius; Jupiter, Neptune in Gemini)

Hepburn, a Hollywood icon, is described as being willful and independent; As a child she cut off her hair and called herself Jimmy. She has said, “In some ways I lived my life as a man, making my own decisions...” Hepburn cared little about fashion and insisted on wearing pants in the 30s when women still wore dresses.
(Reference: AstroDababank)

An example of sidereal Taurus-Venus-exalted Moon symbolism:

Queen Victoria had the Ascendant, Sun and exalted Moon in Taurus. Queen of England by age 18, she bore nine children to her husband, Prince Albert, a full physical expression of a sign where the Moon is exalted and Venus has her domicile. Victoria further displayed the Venus quality of devotion toward her husband, by-passing the often fickle nature of this sign. (Venus is with exalted Moon in the navamsa or relationship chart.)
Reference: AstroDatabank

There are numerous examples of individuals who can be used to illustrate the gender, planetary rulership and exalted planets of sidereal signs. I'll look up my collection of ultra feminine ladies.

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
I think you can safely assume that anyone using a sidereal zodiac does so because he/she finds it works better than the tropical one. Almost everyone outside of India who forms an interest in astrology meets with the tropical zodiac first, so that becoming a siderealist typically requires an active 'conversion', not generally undertaken without reason.

Yes, that is an important point for those who use the sidereal zodiac. It is indeed an active conversion which requires a fair amount of study and comparison of horoscopes to make the rather drastic fundamental change in zodiacs. It becomes very obvious to the person who carefully tests zodiacs that planetary affinity with signs exists in an observable way in the sidereal zodiac.
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Larxene, I'm sorry I've been out of touch on Skyscript for awhile...It's best to simply test out these categories in work with actual charts.

...

I would guess that your Venusian qualities and lack of Martian traits would have to do with Venus in aspect to your Sun or Moon, and the lack of Mars aspects to these bodies. In many years of astrological work I’ve found that the sidereal ascendant lord is a focal point for aspects, but since your ascendant lord is Venus, your Venusian qualities would be shown elsewhere. (The navamsa chart often highlights psychological planetary energies that are lacking in then natal chart.)

In my own case Jupiter is my ascendant lord (in both zodiacs) but I’m not at all a Jupitarian person. Saturn is conjoined to Jupiter, and I have many Saturnian traits.

If your speech tends to be on the non-abrasive peaceful side, you may have Venus in aspect to Mercury? Mars in aspect to Mercury is often sharp tongued or quick in retort to others.




It is alright. I do agree that testing is the best way to find out.

I realised that I asked the question in the wrong way and may have offended people here.

On another note, since the rulership scheme is the same, it may have been better to open another thread on my question about the ascendant lord and character.

Anyway. both Venus and Mars are in whole sign aspect with the Moon in my chart. Venus and Mercury are averse, and Mars and Mercury are also averse.
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Konrad



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Quote:
If you genuinely want to know, I would advise using time lords to test the zodiacs. Timing is generally specific, so it is something thst can't be easily explained away.


I think that using time lords to test zodiacs is rather esoteric and a few steps away from the basics of dignities and sign gender, for example.


You're entitled to your opinion, but when we can't even agree on how to delineate a chart in the first place, it seems to me that looking at general trends in the life and trying to figure out which zodiac is the most effective is a bit wishy-washy. You will generally know the difference between a depressed Mars managing the year compared to an exalted Venus. This is how I resolved the issue in my mind some time ago. Interesting that you identify with Saturn more than Jupiter - in my view, Saturn is currently managing Sidereal Sagittarius. Smile
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
You will generally know the difference between a depressed Mars managing the year compared to an exalted Venus.

Always assuming we can agree on which signs constitute a planet's fall/depression or exaltations, and on the correct way of determining the main chronocrator(s) of the year...
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Konrad



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Konrad wrote:
You will generally know the difference between a depressed Mars managing the year compared to an exalted Venus.

Always assuming we can agree on which signs constitute a planet's fall/depression or exaltations, and on the correct way of determining the main chronocrator(s) of the year...


Profections seem a pretty standard time-lord system for most people, so they are a good bet. And, the radix and return charts allowing, the lord of the profected ASC is a good planet to watch as the year unfolds to time events.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Profections seem a pretty standard time-lord system for most people, so they are a good bet. And, the radix and return charts allowing, the lord of the profected ASC is a good planet to watch as the year unfolds to time events.

It's a standard system, but not a stand-alone system (according to most authors, anyway). In my opinion, if a fallen Mars is a major chronocrator by direction and angular/prominent in the current revolution, having Venus ruling the annual profection can do very little, and even less if that Venus is also cadent in the revolution. The problem with examples positing 'all other things being equal' is that things very rarely are; and so when we test techniques (as I agree we should), we don't test them in isolation, but rather as package solutions -- at least that's my view.
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Konrad



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Profections seem a pretty standard time-lord system for most people, so they are a good bet. And, the radix and return charts allowing, the lord of the profected ASC is a good planet to watch as the year unfolds to time events.

It's a standard system, but not a stand-alone system (according to most authors, anyway). In my opinion, if a fallen Mars is a major chronocrator by direction and angular/prominent in the current revolution, having Venus ruling the annual profection can do very little, and even less if that Venus is also cadent in the revolution. The problem with examples positing 'all other things being equal' is that things very rarely are; and so when we test techniques (as I agree we should), we don't test them in isolation, but rather as package solutions -- at least that's my view.


But having Venus as chrnocator will do something. I don't see it as a distributor=Mars=bad + year lord=Venus=good, but that Venusian themes and events will appear in the native's life, regardless of Mars dominating the year or not. Also, if we have a Venusian event foretold, then it will be Venus who is doing something when the event manifests, and that too is regardless of Mars dominating the year or not. I agree with your main premise though, but that is why I suggest using years when such a configuration does not exist. We can't get isolated instances which would be ideal to test from, but we can pick years where a planet is emphasised throughout the time-lords such as when the bound lord of the directed Hyleg is also the lord of the profected ASC. This sort of thing should make that planet very obvious in the life that year, and thus, it will be easier to test our schemes.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Anyway. both Venus and Mars are in whole sign aspect with the Moon in my chart. Venus and Mercury are averse, and Mars and Mercury are also averse.

Larxene, we would need to know the aspect orbs and whether aspects are forward or backward in the zodiac to judge the strength of Mars and/or Venus influence on the Moon. Also signs of the zodiac do influence planets, if only in a minor way compared to the planets themselves. Planets merely in whole sign aspect may not be effective if the orbs are wide.

I don't know if you would be willing to post the sidereal sign and degree of your Moon, Mars and Venus? We already know that Venus is your sidereal ascendant lord, while Mars is your tropical ascendant lord.

According to Robert Schmidt (ACT Forum, March 2009), the position of the Hellenistic ascendant lord was singled out for special importance in the delineation of the birth chart. So, for example, in cases of SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome) we would expect a badly placed ascendant lord, and conversely a very well placed ascendant lord in the chart of a highly successful and well known person. This type of analysis is very easy to check in zodiac tests.

Averse: Do you mean in opposition? Planets in opposition to the Sun or Moon (or other planets) can be very effective in either psychology or life emphasis.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Quote:
Interesting that you identify with Saturn more than Jupiter - in my view, Saturn is currently managing Sidereal Sagittarius.

And a strange view that is indeed! This non-traditional view would perhaps come under the rulership of Uranus? Step outside centuries of tradition and find a new way to view rulerships. This is a much more extreme view than suggesting (as I do) that we are seeing genuine sidereal sign traits beneath a simple mathematical conceptual (tropical zodiac) overlay.
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Konrad



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Quote:
Interesting that you identify with Saturn more than Jupiter - in my view, Saturn is currently managing Sidereal Sagittarius.

And a strange view that is indeed! This non-traditional view would perhaps come under the rulership of Uranus? Step outside centuries of tradition and find a new way to view rulerships. This is a much more extreme view than suggesting (as I do) that we are seeing genuine sidereal sign traits beneath a simple mathematical conceptual (tropical zodiac) overlay.


It is not really a new way, but my attempt to see the rulerships as the ancients did. There is no reason I can see that the Sun rules Sidereal Leo, but there is also no reason I can see to measure the signs from the Equinox while ignoring the stars completely. I think you are referencing Uranus rising as I was born? I would see my actions more as a unification of the Tropical and Sidereal measurements; a Venusian act for one with Venus rising. Smile
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