Konrad wrote:

I'm not looking for feedback on what I came up with, but for other people to delineate the charts their way, so maybe we can learn something from another approach. Some see individual monologues, but I would rather see a sharing of ideas, and I am aware that I may be dismissive of other's ideas, so I would like to broaden my own approach a bit.

O.K., This is great, much better than picking apart someone else's analysis which doesn't really benefit anyone. I very much like the concept of sharing ideas. Let us go onward and upward!

Therese Hamilton wrote:My initial Reaction to Konrad's analysis of the charts of royals:

Konrad, your grasp of Hellenistic concepts in quite good, as you know. However, no matter how inspired you feel your rulership system is, in my opinion (and intuitively) it is confusing and unnecessary when used to explain traits and life patterns in horoscopes. However, I can still discuss individual traits in charts by using standard symbolism along side your delineation, and suggest why an alternate ruling system can be problematic.

As astrologers we already know that various types of analysis can result in a more or less standard astrological picture of a chart if the astrologers are skilled in delineation. As long as Hellenistic principles are used, I have no problem with them, though I might use different orbs, etc. in individual cases.

In another post I'll begin with your commentary on the chart of Edward VII. As time allows. The extreme heat today is causing me headaches and dizziness.

Well, I'd say your opinion and intuition are the same thing. I'm not sure what your problem is though since I am not asking you, or anyone else, to follow me. I was just demonstrating some of the reasons why I am using this, and it turned out a lot of Victoria's children's charts describe their situations very well in a Sidereal measurement with alternative rulerships. Using the same measurement but "standard" rulerships, not so much.

However, I can still discuss individual traits in charts by using standard symbolism along side your delineation, and suggest why an alternate ruling system can be problematic.

So basically, you are going to pick apart my post? If that's what you want, then that's what you want, but it was something you said you wanted to avoid.

Notes on Edward VIII

Konrad wrote:

This guy has the best chart for eminence from all the siblings, as you would expect for the one who would eventually gain the throne. He has the Sun in the 11th sign, but approaching the MC.

I would add that the Sun is the 9th lord, the house that used to be associated with kingship and royalty (before they were moved to the 10th). So for a man who gained the throne, the 9th lord would have to be well placed. (All my Hellenistic house notes are from Robert Schmidt's Phasewatch lessons.)

The Sun is also with the lot of fortune, and conjunct Beta Libra and four other stars in the 25th degree of Libra. I've seen that degree show up often in charts of noted individuals. It would seem that the Sun in its fall may have contributed greatly to the delay in Edward becoming king.

I would first note that the ascendant lord, Jupiter rises just above the ascendant, which would indicate a fortunate birth and survival of the child.

He has Saturn and Mars, both dignified (domicile and exaltation respectively) casting a ray by sextile into the degrees preceding him while Venus bodyguards with type #3.

(This is a technique I don't use.)

In her own sign, she signified him having the title "Peacemaker"

This can also be shown by the Sun and Lot of Fortune in Libra (diplomatic affairs) as well as the Sun in Venus ruled Taurus on the navamsa ascendant, and Venus opposing the Moon in the navamsa chart. Navamsa Venus also falls on the natal Moon and nonagesimal (zenith) point.

This is where I would look for Venus activities and characteristics. Although it doesn?t appear from the natal chart that there is a strong Venus influence (except the Libra Sun), Venus is highlighted in the navamsa and through her position becomes angular in the natal chart.

Venus is rather strange in the triplicity sytem because she?s a lord of the triplicity in which she finds her fall. I?ve found through experience that an important key to the chart is the Sun?s dispositor. So we find navamsa Venus two degrees from the highest point in the natal chart, the NG or zenith point with the natal Moon.

while having been the longest-waiting heir apparent...

...Saturn conjunct ascendant lord Jupiter...angular in the first house. Also Saturn square the Moon in 10th.

...he was seen as a popular socialite famous for being leisurely.

This is a lunar function. If the chart is set up with equal cusps, the Moon is just at the NG, square the ascendant. Although this is a diurnal birth, the Moon is comfortable in Virgo its own triplicity whose lords are Venus and the Moon. In the sidereal zodiac this triplicity is light, pleasant, and can be frivolous due to the rulership of these two planets. This triplicity is the most social and gregarious of the four trigons, and enjoys conversation and the company of friends.

When he actually became king, he reformed and modernised the military, reinstated traditional ceremonies as part of public life and was skilled in diplomacy.

Traditional ceremonies would be Jupiter. Jupiter is also the planet that can relate easily to others. Venus is in sextile aspect to Jupiter. Thus because Jupiter is the lord of the ascendant, Venus transfers her traits to Jupiter, and they become part of the psychological makeup.

As for the delayed ascendancy to the throne, this would be shown by Saturn?s full aspect (dexter square in Jyotish) to the 10th house Moon. Edward did not become king until after the start of Saturn?s dasa, Saturn in Ketu?s mansion, Ketu being in the 8th, death of the mother.

Notable too is that both the lord of the 4th, Mars, and the natural ruler of one's lineage, Saturn, are bodyguarding as this is what we would expect for one who was in effect given his position by the facts of his birth.

This would also be shown by 4th lord Jupiter just above the ascendant.

Also too, is that the Moon, who is out-of-sect and in fall...

This is a very different view of the Moon than a Moon that is in its own triplicity and having the highest elevation in the chart, thus very prominent and a key to life in general.

So I?m mainly using the nature of planets, sometimes as house lords, and aspects. If I were doing a reading for this person, then I?d go into greater detail such as spear bearing. But at this time I?m not sure of the orbs to be used with that technique or a few others.

It's obvious that I mainly use techniques from Jyotish with a few Hellenistic concepts thrown in such as triplicity lords. My technique mostly involves the flow of energy between planets within the chart and how those planets relate to the ascendant and other houses. It?s obvious in many ways that this is a fortunate chart due to the position of ascendant lord Jupiter and 9th lord Sun. I'm seeing also that I'm fairly rusty on Hellenistic techniques!

Konrad wrote:

So basically, you are going to pick apart my post? If that's what you want, then that's what you want, but it was something you said you wanted to avoid.

No, that is a complete misunderstanding! It seems lately that Skyscript members are too quick to take offense. I'm in favor of just describing the way we delineate charts, and then let everyone make up their own minds on which techniques "speak" to them. Also each system of techniques is a kind of lesson in chart delineation.

Well, I'd say your opinion and intuition are the same thing.

Opinion is more a function of the mind, something we decide upon using logic, whereas intuition (whether true or only imagination) is a feeling that seems right to the heart. A sort of peace settles in.

Konrad,

If the Tropical domiciles works better for you than the Sidereal domiciles, couldn't it be because the Tropical signs work better to begin with? I'm not sure how you would like to peel off one from the other, anyway. Just a thought...

Therese,

I seriously doubt that it's possible to refute Konrad's delineation by demonstrating an alternative one. This is because our astrological symbols can be manifested in so many different manners, and in turn, any given native's traits can potentially be seen as expressive of several different astrological elements. If we are honest, we have to admit that we are looking at a chart as some kind of Cosmic Rohrschach test... we see the symbols, start associating and spinning a story around them...

We should keep in mind that when looking at a chart we are dealing with archetypes. Jung said that they have no particular form as such but take many different forms in manifestation. I guess we could say that they are the sum of all the forms they can potentially assume, but I'm just thinking aloud now...

In order to see more than only ourselves reflected in the archetypal symbols of a chart, we indeed need to use our intuition. We need to tune our antennas into those planes where the archetypes abide - this is what is called DIVINATION! And this is what is making a sacred science out of astrology (it doesn't depend on its being taught in temples or universities, but that's quite another story).

Michael wrote:

I seriously doubt that it's possible to refute Konrad's delineation by demonstrating an alternative one.

I don't plan to refute Konrad's delineation. I think he's a master at using Hellenistic techniques, which I certainly am not. I do question Konrad's rulership system, but I find it so confusing that I'd have no idea how to refute it. The normal sidereal rulers seem to accurately describe the chart as far as I can see.

Therese wrote:

I do question Konrad's rulership system, but I find it so confusing that I'd have no idea how to refute it.

This one made me laugh, Therese!

The normal sidereal rulers work fine for me.

Well, it could be said that both you and Konrad are creating quite some confusion on Skyscript by your delicate balancing acts between Sidereal and Tropical. Interestingly, each of you is doing it in what could be said to be diametrically opposite ways... (There is certainly nothing wrong with exploring unorthodox paths!)

However, I do grant you, Therese, that you are consequent in assigning Sidereal rulers to Sidereal signs. Albeit the latter are at once Tropical in your scheme, in a sense.

Likewise, Konrad could consider to regard the Sidereal signs as being Tropical at the same time... (with some stretch of the imagination). Or vice versa, maybe...

Frederica, Empress of Germany

Konrad wrote:

Ok, we have the Sun in his joy in the 9th conjoined his cazimi lord, Jupiter.

If we resort to standard sidereal rulerships, wouldn?t it be significant that ascendant lord Jupiter is with the Sun, though then Jupiter isn?t cazimi lord? This looks like rather a toss-up if we are looking for a comparison: cazimi lord or ascendant lord?

The Sun is bodyguarded by Mars in detriment in the 7th house. For me, this is apt for this native. The planet providing for her eminence is in the 7th sign of marriage and a sign associated with living abroad.

I?m beginning to see the problem astrologers have in reaching agreements about symbolism. I?ve understood the 12th as living abroad, and the 12th lord Saturn is with the 7th lord, Mercury. (I?m going with Jyotish symbolism here.)

She married a foreign prince and lived abroad where she was always known as Die Engl?nderin (the Englishwoman).

With standard symbolism the 12th lord Saturn with 7th lord Mercury disposited by Mars in the 7th would also describe her foreign marriage and residence. Poor girl! There's no astrological way she would have a long lasting fortunate marriage. So different from her parents.

The state of Mars is also telling, with him in detriment, and as ASC lord, it is a testimony of living abroad. One last thing is that a planet in detriment will eventually ruin its significations or they will fade away; as was stated, her husband died 3 months after gaining the throne.

Mars in 7th would certainly describe the loss of a husband. Mars in (traditional sidereal) Virgo is poorly placed, but not as bad as if it were in detriment. A Jyotish technique that?s used is that Mars is in a mansion of the Sun which rules the 6th house where sits Ketu, planet of loss and sacrifice.

Then Mars is disposited by Mercury who is conjoined to 12th lord Saturn. So there is a repeated 7th-12th connection in the chart. I suppose that the Lot of Fortune in the 12th would show status in foreign country, at least in Jyotish. It is supposed to be "bad karma" if one has to live away from the homeland and family.

Telling here, is the fact that Mars is in mutual reception with Venus (Venus in Mars' exaltation, Mars in Venus' sign), so she did not lose her position completely as would be expected from a malefic out-of-sect, in detriment and acting as spearbearer. Venus was there to protect her in this context.

Konrad, I don't have time or energy to work on more of these royal charts. I'd want a lot more biographical information to make it worthwhile. So I'll wait to see what you say about the Sun-Moon-Asc/Jupiter-MC charts. Only one chart has an extensive biography.

Michael Sternbach wrote:Konrad,

If the Tropical domiciles works better for you than the Sidereal domiciles, couldn't it be because the Tropical signs work better to begin with? I'm not sure how you would like to peel off one from the other, anyway. Just a thought...

No, because looking at ASC and planets in late degrees Tropically, which are then early degrees of the same sign Sidereally is most illuminating. There are a few amongst Victoria and her children's charts here. Also is the point of the order of the time-lords via directing the Hyleg, and also the length of life itself using the bound lord of the Hyleg as the giver of years; all function better in the Sidereal measurement. There is also the positions of the dodekatemoira. So, no Tropical signs don't work better for me at least.

Hey Therese,

thanks for your point of view. I just want to say that have nowehere near delineated these charts fully, I merely took one technique to highlight one factor of their lives and saw what came up. Eminence is basically the number of people they influence and how, and I'd say spearbearing in these charts works out pretty well. In my opinion, the dispositorships, detriments and falls I outlined add another subtle layer to the interpretation too.

I do have the charts on some natives here, though not yet finished in their lives, where spearbearing is non-descript. I am wondering if this is because of other factors in the chart, or that spearbearing is somehow linked to ancestral eminence, or eminence found initially achieved without the native's own effort. I guess more study is required.

The main point was though that family background is vital. Even those with uneminent charts still were married into powerful families or had the benefits merely being the child of royalty would bring. The male with the lowest eminence was still a peer and the Grandmaster of a Masonic lodge. I think this sort of thing should always be kept in mind when delineating other topics too.

Konrad wrote:

I just want to say that [I?] have nowehere near delineated these charts fully...

I also took only a few factors mentioned in the brief notes on each chart. Now an experiment we could do is to take a single chart with a comprehensive biography and analyze the chart more fully.

I also want to review spear bearing in Robert Schmidt's Definitions and Foundations. I hadn't really worked with that technique before, but in Jyotish it's considered a protection for a planet if planets are on either side of that planet's sign. This seems to be related to the original Hellenistic concept of spear bearing.

The main point was though that family background is vital. Even those with uneminent charts still were married into powerful families or had the benefits merely being the child of royalty would bring. The male with the lowest eminence was still a peer and the Grandmaster of a Masonic lodge. I think this sort of thing should always be kept in mind when delineating other topics too.

It would be interesting to compare the charts of ordinary people without family status with those of royalty. Yes, family background should be clearly shown in a chart. Also (as far as rulerships go) wouldn't it be helpful to compare the charts of say S.I.D.S. charts with those who have had fortunate lives?

The ascendant lord would be key here, so you could test your system of rulerships. I can post several S.I.D.S charts after we're through with the three charts I posted. (As time allows I'll look at the other royal charts, but I find that my mind has tired easily in the last few years, so my concentration time is limited.)

Anyway, reading your delineations of the royal charts has been a helpful refresher on eminence and spear bearing, so I thank you for that. Now I want to hit the books for more details, especially as to orbs.

Hoping you'll have time to comment on the three charts I posted, or at least the one with the extensive biography. And how would you distinguish the Mensan chart from Victoria's as to eminence? Unfortunately we have no details as to the life of the owner of the Mensan chart. It's common here in the U.S. for Mensan members to more or less drift through life because they are so easily bored with normal routine and jobs.

Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:I also want to review spear bearing in Robert Schmidt's Definitions and Foundations. I hadn't really worked with that technique before, but in Jyotish it's considered a protection for a planet if planets are on either side of that planet's sign. This seems to be related to the original Hellenistic concept of spear bearing.

Yeah, that sounds about right, but you have to remember that a planet could be enclosed by degree or by sign, at least in the Medieval texts, I can't remember if that is the case in the Hellenistic texts too.

It would be interesting to compare the charts of ordinary people without family status with those of royalty. Yes, family background should be clearly shown in a chart. Also (as far as rulerships go) wouldn't it be helpful to compare the charts of say S.I.D.S. charts with those who have had fortunate lives?

No, I am saying that family background is not found in the chart. If you have the son of a prince and a pauper with eactly the same chart, they will have different lives because of what they started with.

The ascendant lord would be key here, so you could test your system of rulerships. I can post several S.I.D.S charts after we're through with the three charts I posted. (As time allows I'll look at the other royal charts, but I find that my mind has tired easily in the last few years, so my concentration time is limited.)

What are SIDS?

Hoping you'll have time to comment on the three charts I posted, or at least the one with the extensive biography. And how would you distinguish the Mensan chart from Victoria's as to eminence? Unfortunately we have no details as to the life of the owner of the Mensan chart. It's common here in the U.S. for Mensan members to more or less drift through life because they are so easily bored with normal routine and jobs.

Probably not for a little while, I fractured my hand yesterday, so typing is troublesome. I would distinguish the charts firstly through their families then delineate as normal. A person can be wealthy and/or famous but have little eminence.