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Domicile rulership in the sidereal zodiac
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
For those really interested in doryphories and able to read German, the book to get is Susanne Denningmann's Die astrologische Lehre der Doryphorie: Eine soziomorphe Metapher in der antiken Planetenastrologie.

I cannot read German, but am checking Robert Schmidt's Definitions and Foundations (The Golden Hind Press, 2009), and see that he has an excellent and comprehensive 18 page discussion of doryphories. He discusses the texts of different authors and the ambiguities between the texts before reaching his own conclusion. I'm studying this section now, and will be comparing it to the quotes posted by Konrad.

Schmidt's book is really a "must have" for students of Hellenistic astrology. It can probably be ordered only from the Project Hindsight web site, and is probably much more expensive than when it was initially released in 2009. The book was supposed to be the second in a 30 volume series, but I don't believe another volume has been released. A value cannot be placed on Schmidt's exhaustive commentary on Hellenistic principles in this volume.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Quote:
Well since you advocate testing methods, you could test your ideas on the charts I posted, all came from the most privileged family in the UK in their day, so all would surely have a fortunate family in their charts.

This is too good a challenge to pass up if I can find the time. I'll have to re-cast the charts with the navamsas.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Well thanks, to you and Martin, I can still type with my left hand, it is just slow going. It is not a serious injury anyway. I was expecting something of the sort this year, but not for another couple of weeks. If you look at my chart I have Mars overcoming the Moon, with the aspect repeating in the Revolution of this year and the Moon handing over to Mars' sign in the revolution via profections.

When you say the aspect is repeating in the current revolution, are you using a tropical definition of the year?
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Well thanks, to you and Martin, I can still type with my left hand, it is just slow going. It is not a serious injury anyway. I was expecting something of the sort this year, but not for another couple of weeks. If you look at my chart I have Mars overcoming the Moon, with the aspect repeating in the Revolution of this year and the Moon handing over to Mars' sign in the revolution via profections.

When you say the aspect is repeating in the current revolution, are you using a tropical definition of the year?


Yes, exactly. I forgot to note too that revolution Mars is squaring the bounds of the directed Hyleg and the accident happened as the Moon was transiting them.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schmidt had something to say about Doriphoria ,casting of rays and spear-bearing and Donningham's translation here:

http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=125

Schmidt it seems, also believes that early Hellenistic was a complete system and hence once lost can not be deciphered from later hellenistic system.He also suggests that the early system could have been better preserved in the Arabic system.

Very interesting.
May be many peculiarities of the fragmented Early hellenistic system are in the Indian Jyotisha system.Lunar constellation based periods may be one of them.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Martin Gansten wrote:
When you say the aspect is repeating in the current revolution, are you using a tropical definition of the year?

Yes, exactly. I forgot to note too that revolution Mars is squaring the bounds of the directed Hyleg and the accident happened as the Moon was transiting them.

The last part, at least, is (more or less) zodiac-independent. But I'd be interested to know why you are using tropical revolutions with a sidereal zodiac, which will result in the Sun in the revolution not actually returning to its natal place. For people born with the Sun in the first degree of a sidereal sign (presumably some 3.33% of the population), it will even mean that the Sun in the revolution eventually migrates into the preceding sign. Is this another area where you chose to experiment first and theorize later?

Interestingly, it seems to have been a standard argument of the modern western siderealist school that sidereal/precessed solar returns work better than tropical ones, and in fact there were European astrologers using sidereal measurements for revolutions even during the Renaissance (perhaps relying on Perso-Arabic sources) -- the reverse of what you are doing here. A long time ago, I too did play with the idea that the seasonal year might be more relevant, but my experiments all pointed me in the opposite direction.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
Schmidt had something to say about Doriphoria ,casting of rays and spear-bearing and Donningham's translation here:

http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=125

Thanks for this, Pankaj. Some valuable critique of Denningmann's work here.
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Martin Gansten wrote:
When you say the aspect is repeating in the current revolution, are you using a tropical definition of the year?

Yes, exactly. I forgot to note too that revolution Mars is squaring the bounds of the directed Hyleg and the accident happened as the Moon was transiting them.

The last part, at least, is (more or less) zodiac-independent. But I'd be interested to know why you are using tropical revolutions with a sidereal zodiac, which will result in the Sun in the revolution not actually returning to its natal place. For people born with the Sun in the first degree of a sidereal sign (presumably some 3.33% of the population), it will even mean that the Sun in the revolution eventually migrates into the preceding sign. Is this another area where you chose to experiment first and theorize later?

Interestingly, it seems to have been a standard argument of the modern western siderealist school that sidereal/precessed solar returns work better than tropical ones, and in fact there were European astrologers using sidereal measurements for revolutions even during the Renaissance (perhaps relying on Perso-Arabic sources) -- the reverse of what you are doing here. A long time ago, I too did play with the idea that the seasonal year might be more relevant, but my experiments all pointed me in the opposite direction.


Well you know I have been on a seemingly endless quest to find a system to split the year up into time-lords with the 7 planets all having a share, and I have found that using the lord of the Tropical revolution ASC as the first lord and then dividing the year up according to the planets in zodiacal order from it in the revolution to be telling in timing events. I follow Valens in assigning the lengths of the periods, and I believe he apportioned days according to the division of each planets' lesser years into the total number of lesser years of all of them. So the Moon gets 70 days as 25/129*365.25=70.78.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clarifying. I, too, have spent much time looking for a simple system dividing the year neatly into periods, using both 'western' and Indian methods (there is no lack of them in Tajika sources), and sometimes I've thought I've found it, but it's always ended in disappointment. Transits and continuous profections (annual and, just maybe, monthly), as found in 'Umar and others, seem to me the most useful methods for timing results within a year.
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Martin Gansten wrote:
When you say the aspect is repeating in the current revolution, are you using a tropical definition of the year?

Yes, exactly. I forgot to note too that revolution Mars is squaring the bounds of the directed Hyleg and the accident happened as the Moon was transiting them.

The last part, at least, is (more or less) zodiac-independent. But I'd be interested to know why you are using tropical revolutions with a sidereal zodiac, which will result in the Sun in the revolution not actually returning to its natal place. For people born with the Sun in the first degree of a sidereal sign (presumably some 3.33% of the population), it will even mean that the Sun in the revolution eventually migrates into the preceding sign. Is this another area where you chose to experiment first and theorize later?

Interestingly, it seems to have been a standard argument of the modern western siderealist school that sidereal/precessed solar returns work better than tropical ones, and in fact there were European astrologers using sidereal measurements for revolutions even during the Renaissance (perhaps relying on Perso-Arabic sources) -- the reverse of what you are doing here. A long time ago, I too did play with the idea that the seasonal year might be more relevant, but my experiments all pointed me in the opposite direction.


I forgot to mention, the reason i mentioned the bounds was that Mercury is currently the bound lord of the directed Hyleg and it is he the Moon is handing over to this year hence the bringing forth of Lunar significations.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
I forgot to mention, the reason i mentioned the bounds was that Mercury is currently the bound lord of the directed Hyleg and it is he the Moon is handing over to this year hence the bringing forth of Lunar significations.

I'm not sure I follow that. Are you saying that if a significator A comes by profection to a sign ruled by planet B, and planet B is simultaneously the divisor (= directed term ruler) of the hyleg, then the year will be marked by the significations of A? It sounds a bit back-to-front to me, but perhaps I misunderstand.

(I don't know to what extent you care to have your chart details discussed on the forum, so I won't offer any alternative perspective for now.)
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Konrad wrote:
I forgot to mention, the reason i mentioned the bounds was that Mercury is currently the bound lord of the directed Hyleg and it is he the Moon is handing over to this year hence the bringing forth of Lunar significations.

I'm not sure I follow that. Are you saying that if a significator A comes by profection to a sign ruled by planet B, and planet B is simultaneously the divisor (= directed term ruler) of the hyleg, then the year will be marked by the significations of A? It sounds a bit back-to-front to me, but perhaps I misunderstand.

(I don't know to what extent you care to have your chart details discussed on the forum, so I won't offer any alternative perspective for now.)


Exactly.

Feel free to send your thoughts on to me in private if you want to, I am interested to see what you come up with.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
pankajdubey wrote:
Schmidt had something to say about Doriphoria ,casting of rays and spear-bearing and Donningham's translation here:

http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=125

Thanks for this, Pankaj. Some valuable critique of Denningmann's work here.

This is an example of how wonderfully helpful Robert Schmidt's commentary on Hellenistic principles is in Definitions and Foundations.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad, I don't know if you have set up your sidereal revolution to compare with the tropical. I think my brief comments here may not reveal too much of your natal chart, but if so I'll be happy to quickly delete this post.

In your current revolution Mars is just at the natal NG (zenith) point squaring Uranus (30 minute orb) which is in the mansion of Mercury--injuries to the hands and arms. This is a technique straight out out of Krishnamurti which states that when looking for the results of transits, one has to note the vimshottari planet ruling the mansion, its position and/or houses ruled. You will know where your Uranus and Mercury are positioned in your natal chart. House position (angularity, cadency, house symbolism etc.) will describe the location of transit effects.

This placement of revolution Mars will affect Mercurial factors (via Uranus) in other ways during the year as well. All things Mercurial, and perhaps related to Mercury's houses as well, as well as any bodily conjunctions to Mercury. (Krishnamurti precepts)

Western Fagan school sidereal astrologers always place the natal and revolution in a bi-wheel, so it may be difficult to see the interactions of the two charts if one's astrological program doesn't provide bi-wheels.

When you say that your fractured your hand, this would mean bones in your hand, correct? So symbolically we're talking about fractured bones in the fingers or hands?
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
Interestingly, it seems to have been a standard argument of the modern western siderealist school that sidereal/precessed solar returns work better than tropical ones, and in fact there were European astrologers using sidereal measurements for revolutions even during the Renaissance (perhaps relying on Perso-Arabic sources) -- the reverse of what you are doing here.

Yes, the dramatic planetary pictures in sidereal revolutions are what so excited Cyril Fagan and his co-workers when these charts were discovered. The Fagan school places great emphasis on planets angular in the revolution (and natal planets which fall in revolution angles) as well as aspects to revolution angles.

A number of western tropical astrologers (such as Robert Hand) now remove precession from their revolutions (solar returns) as they see these charts do a better job of highlighting relevant planets for the year. The Moon, of course will be the biggest change between tropical and sidereal revolutions.
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