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Domicile rulership in the sidereal zodiac
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2901
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin,

i think you have got it right.. it is essentially the sun moving 40 degrees or 1/9th of the circle forward with the resulting charts off it's position all connected directly to the suns natal position.

in order to get this via solar fire - my version is 7.3
highlight the solar return chart for the particular year.
go to ->returns and ingresses. then -> in the options menu select advanced return selections.. choose sun - 9th harmonic with the sun position data in the box asking for this.. it will generate 9 charts that are essentially transit charts that coincide with where the sun will be every 40 degrees or approx 40 days from the primary solar return for the particular year. i am not sure how this works in other versions of solar fire..
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
I think I get it now: it's not a harmonic (in the ordinary sense), but a division of the year into nine equal parts as measured by the Sun's motion. It is thus a variant on the practice of dividing the year into twelve equal solar months (which could be called 'dodecads'). Well, I'll look at it and see if anything useful emerges.

Yes, that's it Martin. I'm sorry I couldn't explain it more clearly. James Eshelman writes that Donald Bradley experimented with the 12 solar months, but some failed miserably unless they coincided with the Enneads. That's how Bradley discovered the value of the ninth division of the year.

Anyway our western astrology programs call this ninth division a ninth harmonic. Actually with that choice we don't even have to calculate the solar return, but can type in any date and get the ninth chart of the year for that date. But it's best to refer back to the possibilities shown in the revolution which is also the first Ennead of the year.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a quick note.. it will generate 8, not 9 charts. the first chart is the solar return to it's natal position.. the 9th chart would be the following years solar return.. it generates 8 charts..
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
i am following your discussion on the enneads with great interest.. i have solar fire 7.3. but i am unable to generate the charts you are showing here in the program i have.. perhaps i am missing something..

James, let me know if Pankaj has solved this problem for you.

May I respectfully ask why you don't use capital letter when you type? Especially the small "i" beginning a sentence is rather unsettling. This makes reading a little more difficult without the visual break of capital letters. Call me a stickler for details, (and too easily annoyed) but I wonder why no caps?
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've really gone off topic this time, haven't we? Very Happy I'll start a new thread on enneads if I find them useful, though so far I'm not thrilled -- transits and, to some extent, continuous profections still look like more reliable tools to me.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
just a quick note.. it will generate 8, not 9 charts. the first chart is the solar return to it's natal position.. the 9th chart would be the following years solar return.. it generates 8 charts..

Yes, this is true. The first chart is the solar return or "King Ennead."

I don't know if the newer versions of Solar Fire allow you to use the outer chart cusps with another chart in the center as is necessary to easily read the Ennead and solar return. I have a special module designed by Matthew Quellas that gives this option. (Usually only the inner wheel cusps can be used for bi-wheels.)

I would be happy to share that module if it can be used with later versions of Solar Fire. You'd have to ask Astrolabe if the codes are the same.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
We've really gone off topic this time, haven't we? Very Happy I'll start a new thread on enneads if I find them useful, though so far I'm not thrilled -- transits and, to some extent, continuous profections still look like more reliable tools to me.

Well, Enneads are only cyclic transits set against the natal chart for a specific period of time. Profections: Yes, a great tool. Actually it would be good to see some examples of those if you have time to start a Profection thread, Martin. Profections haven't been much used here in North America.

Enneads: Often there is really nothing happening in those charts (little or no angularity), which should mean "life as usual" for that period of time. A promotion, a job coming through, the birth of a child, marriage....the Ennead should clearly show these types of events.

Domicile rulerships, the topic of this thread? Well, reading the solar return and cyclic charts such as the Ennead depend very much on house and domicile rulerships, so these charts can be used to confirm these traditional assignments.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Delhi

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just one thing to say before this thread closes- most of the confusion has occurred because of the terms used have been novel and not explained and the method individualistic.


BTW
I got the explanation for James' query from Therese's answer here:

http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1443877-enneads-for-clintonobama/

Wink

Also, this thread shows the value of peer review and Frawley should join us- in a different forum of course.

PD
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:

Quote:
BTW
I got the explanation for James' query from Therese's answer here:

http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1443877-enneads-for-clintonobama/

You know what's scary?? I have absolutely no recollection of writing any of that. Sad
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Delhi

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese,
Looks like Jim Eashelman is still active on this SoLunars forum.

http://www.solunars.net


I got this link from the last page of Steve's post(2010).
That thread ran for 15 pages.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5019&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
Looks like Jim Eashelman is still active on this SoLunars forum. http://www.solunars.net

Yes, every so often I check Jim's forum for new posts. As far as I know Jim's forum is the only "live" venue for Fagan's astrology or the western sidereal system.
Quote:

I got this link from the last page of Steve's post(2010).
That thread ran for 15 pages.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5019&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

If there are serious students who want to learn techniques of the Fagan school, that thread will do it. There's an entire textbook in those posts.

Only I find it a little problematic that Steve generally uses the tropical zodiac while correcting for precession. But this may be the best way for tropical astrologers to become familiar with Fagan's techniques. This western school of sidereal astrology has had very few converts because the system is so mathematically intensive.
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petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
What do fish have to do with Jupiter, or Saturn with men pouring water?


Jupiter indicates childbearing, engendering, desire, loves... Of the internal parts it rules the sperm, the uterus, the liver, the parts of the right side... - Valens 1.1, Riley

Jupiter signifies procreation according to all Hellenistic astrologers. And not just because it is benefic, but it is a natural signification. The Fishes is a prolific image and the Crab is a prolific image.

Saturn signifies water and ships according to many (if not all) Hellenistic astrologers. The most likely reason for that is that it rules two moist signs - Capricorn (Fish-Goat) and Aquarius (Water-Bearer). Those qualities are clearly derived from the constellations.

Triplicity elements are somewhat rare and even when they are present, such as in Valens, he still keeps Capricorn and Aquarius as aquatic (Book 2.36 and 2.41). And in another place he says:

''Saturn distributing to Jupiter indicates a fine and effective period: men receive inheritances and legacies. They receive help from older people or from wills. They control estates and property. Some gain profit from moist matters: they own ships, they purchase ships, they demolish and /184P/ rebuild, they restore old matters and are adorned with a livelihood''. - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf

And Ptolemy says:

For when the planets which govern the Lot of Fortune are in power, they make the subjects rich, particularly when they chance to have the proper testimony3 of the luminaries; thus Saturn brings riches through building, or agriculture, or shipping ventures.., - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html

He also says that if Mars predominates action with the testimony of Saturn it makes ''seamen, drawers of water, tunnelers, painters, gamekeepers, cooks, embalmers'' - 4.4., Robbins translation.

I hope you have examined the tradition thoroughly to think that Pisces is a fixed sign. As far as I remember, the constellation is clearly made of two bodies/fishes, same as Gemini (Twins), Virgo (Virgin with wings) and Sagittarius (Centaur). The Hellenistic astrologers called the mutable signs - double-bodied, clearly there was some other rationale than season going on (and maybe why Ptolemy does not have quadruplicities, but four unequal groupings).

Also, maybe you miss some intuition to figure out why fishes are connected with fertility. They look like something and swim through moist something. This is most likely the reason Jupiter signifies the sperm and the uterus.

Can anyone argue that early Northern Hemisphere March in some way embodies those characteristics better than the Fishes do?
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petosiris,

Those posts of 2014 were made by myself during a time of experimentation, and I no longer adhere to their contents. I am happy to place the sun as ruler of Leo and use the scheme as outlined by Porphyry (or whoever wrote what is claimed to be his work) in chapter five of the Introduction to the Tetrabiblos. Ultimately, I was looking to integrate both measurements into one system, though I concede I went too far towards one side in doing so. If there is any value in using the rising times of the signs to predict the when of the events, then the tropical measurement is more appealing than the unequal nature of the sidereal segments, but that is about as far as it goes for me with it these days.

As for the rest of your post, it isn't really surprising that Saturn and Jupiter have had some of the signfications and qualities of their domiciles integrated into their own set of significations, but that doesn't really answer the question from 2014 that you quoted. As I said, following Porphyry, I think the domicile scheme began with the luminaries being assigned to Leo and Cancer, and the rest of the planets were assigned according to the aspects from each of those signs. For me, the mystery is why Leo and Cancer in the first place? For what it is worth, I don't think Ptolemy gives a satisfactory answer to that question, so this is something that a tropical astrologer must also figure out.
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petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
Petosiris,

Those posts of 2014 were made by myself during a time of experimentation, and I no longer adhere to their contents. I am happy to place the sun as ruler of Leo and use the scheme as outlined by Porphyry (or whoever wrote what is claimed to be his work) in chapter five of the Introduction to the Tetrabiblos. Ultimately, I was looking to integrate both measurements into one system, though I concede I went too far towards one side in doing so. If there is any value in using the rising times of the signs to predict the when of the events, then the tropical measurement is more appealing than the unequal nature of the sidereal segments, but that is about as far as it goes for me with it these days.

As for the rest of your post, it isn't really surprising that Saturn and Jupiter have had some of the signfications and qualities of their domiciles integrated into their own set of significations, but that doesn't really answer the question from 2014 that you quoted. As I said, following Porphyry, I think the domicile scheme began with the luminaries being assigned to Leo and Cancer, and the rest of the planets were assigned according to the aspects from each of those signs. For me, the mystery is why Leo and Cancer in the first place? For what it is worth, I don't think Ptolemy gives a satisfactory answer to that question, so this is something that a tropical astrologer must also figure out.


Ok, no problem, just pointing a natural signification that could have been made only in a sidereal zodiac. I understand that I do not answer your question, but there is no answer to your question - as signs and planets derived their significations from each other very early on in the Hellenistic tradition. Unless you invent a new astrology, you can't separate them.

So as of now, you use a sidereal zodiac with tropical rising times? The only technique that involves direct summing up of rising times I can think of is the technique by Valens he uses from Nechepso and Petosiris. Is that what you are using? I imagine you use the tropical rising time of Aries as the ''rising time'' of sidereal Pisces then?

You probably have considered that the so-called ''tropical'' rising times have almost no difference from the sidereal rising times in the Aries 10 table, but that there are clear differences today.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

petosiris wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Petosiris,

Those posts of 2014 were made by myself during a time of experimentation, and I no longer adhere to their contents. I am happy to place the sun as ruler of Leo and use the scheme as outlined by Porphyry (or whoever wrote what is claimed to be his work) in chapter five of the Introduction to the Tetrabiblos. Ultimately, I was looking to integrate both measurements into one system, though I concede I went too far towards one side in doing so. If there is any value in using the rising times of the signs to predict the when of the events, then the tropical measurement is more appealing than the unequal nature of the sidereal segments, but that is about as far as it goes for me with it these days.

As for the rest of your post, it isn't really surprising that Saturn and Jupiter have had some of the signfications and qualities of their domiciles integrated into their own set of significations, but that doesn't really answer the question from 2014 that you quoted. As I said, following Porphyry, I think the domicile scheme began with the luminaries being assigned to Leo and Cancer, and the rest of the planets were assigned according to the aspects from each of those signs. For me, the mystery is why Leo and Cancer in the first place? For what it is worth, I don't think Ptolemy gives a satisfactory answer to that question, so this is something that a tropical astrologer must also figure out.


Ok, no problem, just pointing a natural signification that could have been made only in a sidereal zodiac. I understand that I do not answer your question, but there is no answer to your question - as signs and planets derived their significations from each other very early on in the Hellenistic tradition. Unless you invent a new astrology, you can't separate them.

So as of now, you use a sidereal zodiac with tropical rising times? The only technique that involves direct summing up of rising times I can think of is the technique by Valens he uses from Nechepso and Petosiris. Is that what you are using? I imagine you use the tropical rising time of Aries as the ''rising time'' of sidereal Pisces then?

You probably have considered that the so-called ''tropical'' rising times have almost no difference from the sidereal rising times in the Aries 10 table, but that there are clear differences today.


Petosiris,

No, I don't use the rising times for anything. What I meant was that if I were to, I would use the tropical simply because I like the symmetry. There are quite a few techniques that Valens uses which rely on the rising times, but I don't like the convoluted nature of the them. I really only direct the Hyleg, and the Asc and MC, through the bounds and combine that with the solar revolution and the profected ASC a la Abu Ma'shar.
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