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Radical chart with 7th-house ruler retrograde ?

 
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sirius



Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Westfalia, Germany

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Radical chart with 7th-house ruler retrograde ? Reply with quote

Hello Forum,

on Monday, March 14, 2005 an elderly lady asked me:
"What did my husband do with our money?" after she found out recently that he had been spending up to 2.000 Euro (a lot more than 1.000 pounds I guess) a month for about 10 years - not telling her for what and where he spent it.

The data: 3pm 52N00 8E40 (near Bielefeld in Germany)
The Ascendant: 18Leo50
I used Placidus

At first I thought the chart radical but after some time I realized that Saturn, ruler of the 7th house is retrograde - Derek Appleby writes in 'Horary Astrology' that in such a case an interpretation of the chart quite often is not possble !?

At the moment I tend to agree with him because all the time trying to interpret the chart I felt there was some kind of block within me - due to my lack of experience ?
All I can tell her is that for her the money seems to be lost - Mercury ruler of 2nd house peregrine in the 9th house making no aspect to her signifcator ( Sun) or the Moon - applying to a square with a retrograde Saturn (her husband) on the cusp of the 12th.

Anybody out there with similar experiences ?
Would you give a judgement on a chart like this ( Saturn is not IN the seventh house ) ?
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



When I first read this post I thought I probably wouldn’t want to do it, because of the trouble it might bring you, but looking at the chart I’m intrigued.

The afflicted 7th house rule is usually set aside if the question is about a 7th house matter, which I think this is. Saturn in the 12th house describes the husband being clandestine in his activities, and Neptune on the cusp points to deceit or secrecy. Oooh, what was he up to?

In this situation I think I would take Mercury and the 2nd house as significators for the money the querent has control over, but I would look to the 8th house and Fortuna for the money that has been secreted away, because this is more about the money he had under his control. It’s interesting that Mercury is opposing Fortuna and Jupiter across the 3rd-9th axis – in some way that has to fit into the scenario. I also wondered about the MR between Jupiter and Venus, and the fact that Venus is combust in his 2nd – Venus rules gambling, does that make sense?

Another approach you might take is to see this as hidden treasure, and follow Lilly’s technique for finding buried treasure through exploration of the 4th house ruler. Just a thought.

Trouble is there seems to be lots of clues here, but no dominant theme to tie it all together with certainty – least not one that I can spot as yet.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
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sirius



Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Westfalia, Germany

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply Deb,
I did think of gambling because he always spent small amounts of money - 100 or 200 Euros each time.
I suggested this as a possibility to her when I phoned her - but she thinks he has or used to have a liaison or spent the money for/with prostitutes, actually she seems to be convinced that it is so - and she would obviously like to have an astrological "proof" for that !?

Wouldn't the MR between Jupiter (his ruler H2) and Venus indicate something like this ? Venus and Sun are close together in Pisces but not actually conjunct before they leave the sign - is there another woman next to her she does not know of ?

Another thought on my side: he is being or was blackmailed - Mars in his 12th house having opposed his Saturn; and the last aspect of the Moon (as a co-significator of the lost/missing money) is a trine to Mars (strong in exaltation) !!! Is there someone having power over all the others ?
Does he have an illegitimate child ?

Still I don't know what all these harmonious aspects of the Moon mean.
The Sun (she) is separating from the trine with Saturn (she is about to divorce him) but the Moon will sextile first Venus then her Sun then his Saturn.

These were my thoughts so far - now I'll re-read Lilly's hints concerning hidden treasures Confused
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also wondered about the MR between Jupiter and Venus, and the fact that Venus is combust in his 2nd – Venus rules gambling, does that make sense?


It certainly does make sense, but, I think, so does this. Venus is combust, possibly indicating corrupt Venusian activities, and Jupiter rules his second house of money, so I'm thinking prostitutes or a girlfriend he helped with the rent or other expenses. Venus is in her exaltation, though. His fifth house of sexual activity is ruled by Mercury in Aries in his third, (she lived in the neighborhood?) disposed by Mars in his 12th (like Venus in his exlatation), and in the fall of Saturn, his significator. Mercury, like almost everything in this chart everything in this chart says "sneaky."

Although my astrological argument isn't any stronger than Deb's, and probably weaker, I might rule out gambling as he had to win sometime and if so, he wouldn't need to spend the same money regularly. Once in a while he'd use his winnings, no? What about blackmail or paying off an old debt he didn't want her to know about? Let's not be too quick to hang this guy. He maybe saving up for a diamond for her. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Another point: I don't know if I'd want to answer this question for a client. Let's say the chart pointed to either gambling or prostitutes with certainty. The poor guy has no chance to defend himself. I'm not implying it is wrong to take this sort of question, but I don't know if I would have done it. Although working on it from my perspective is great fun. Any other thoughts?

Tom
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn’t realise they were divorcing – I thought he had died Smile Even more reason why you need to be careful about this chart and give consideration to those 7th house afflictions. The suggestion is not that it makes the chart impossible to read; it’s that it puts the astrologer into a difficult position or might bring discredit. You need to be selective in what information you filter through to the client and why. The best I’d opt for is “this could be indicated, but it’s not conclusive”. It sounds like you are already aware of that though.

I can’t think why I suggested gambling as opposed to the other obvious Venus activity. If the Sun in the 8th is demonstrating the querent’s interest in her partner’s money, the Sun so close to Venus may be showing her suspicion – that another woman is involved. The fact that Venus is in MR with Jupiter (his money) may be showing that she is right.

But we should also consider the past aspects of Jupiter –
Mars separated from the square of Jupiter before it hit the opposition of Saturn. Jupiter is also separating from the square of Saturn. This definitely seems like he parted with the money reluctantly, or under menaces, so I’ve now ruled out gambling. You’ve both suggested blackmail and the very term makes sense (to me) of Mercury in his 3rd house, governed by Mars opp. Saturn.

Quote:
so I'm thinking prostitutes or a girlfriend he helped with the rent or other expenses.


I keep coming back to the relevance of property too. Even without the girlfriend he might have been investing in property the querent doesn’t know about. This would make sense of the Venus connection (Venus rules his 4th) that the Moon is in his 4th, and the Moon’s application to Venus by Sextile. But then how is Mars involved? Mars seems to be intimidating him. Could that be explained by the fact that Mars rules his 10th house and he has been having business problems lately?

Quote:
He maybe saving up for a diamond for her. Wouldn't that be a hoot?


Get outta here Smile
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Yes miss, [ sticks hand up] I do! Smile
I've been looking at the condition of that Saturn, his ruler, and it struck me that's its terrible condition in his 6th house might suggest that he is not a well man and that he may have been spending the money on private medical treatment. If I'm right then its placement in her 12th house suggests that he's been covering up his illness.

Jupiter rules the missing money and has recently separated from Saturn, with reception.
The Moon would rule his sickness (turned 6th) and the Moon here is far stronger than Saturn (him). In fact, Saturn gives all his strength to the Moon.
Further, this Moon dignifies Venus, which in turn is combust the Sun, which rules the turned 7th (his doctor?)

Just a few rambling thoughts, but I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring Smile
==
Pete
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sirius



Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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Location: Westfalia, Germany

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'll add some information now....
Her husband has received medical treatment for his cancer - the chemo-therapy ( do you say so in English ?) has been given until a few weeks ago and seemed successful ; Saturn is turning direct these days, Mercury his ruler H8 has just turned retrograde !!??

If he spent the money for a healer or naturopathic doctor (H9 - Venus) - why not tell his wife ?
The "normal" medical treatment is paid for by the insurance-company.

She too had cancer ten years ago and since that time their relation is as bad as it is now (it never was too good)....and since that point in time he kept spending money secretly.
Now you know why she suspects him having an affair or something like that.

By the way, she has Neptune conjunct the Ascendant in her birth chart , he has Neptune near his Midheaven, H 10.
Is that why this whole case is so Sick Secret Confused ?
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Her husband has received medical treatment for his cancer -
[...]

Ok, so now we know the significance of his weak ruling planet: he has (or had) cancer
Quote:
If he spent the money for a healer or naturopathic doctor (H9 - Venus) - why not tell his wife ?

Yes that's a very good point. It seems a bit strange that he wouldn't tell her, unless she's one of those people who is dead against that sort of thing.
What we're looking for is an event that has already happened so my eye goes to the last aspect made to Saturn, and that was the opposition from Mars on the turned 12th cusp (regio'). This might suggest a threat to him due to an indiscretion on his part. Mars rules the 4th and 9th so Deb might well be on the right track in suggesting a property matter, perhaps with some costly legal or overseas implications that he doesn't want his wife to know about. Just prior to opposing Saturn, Mars squared Jupiter, and Jupiter rules the missing money. These two are in a mixed negative reception ( detriment and fall), with Mars and Saturn in a good mixed reception (triplicity and dignity).
These previous aspects of Mars to the money and to him make Mars the culprit, imo, but I'm out of ideas really as to what Mars might signify, other than what I've suggested. Anyone care to follow the thread further?
Quote:
By the way, she has Neptune conjunct the Ascendant in her birth chart , he has Neptune near his Midheaven, H 10.
Is that why this whole case is so Sick Secret Confused ?

:grinning: Very probably, yes.
==
Pete
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Jupiter and POF are in his 9th, can't he have spent it abroad? With Moon in Taurus in his 4th, bought property abroad? And given the involvement of Mars, the ruler of his 3d and his 10th, did he make this investment with someone from his direct environment, maybe from his work -- who, being in 12th, secretly ripped him off?

Or is my imagination running wild? Confused

PS Jupiter is conjunct the fixed star Seginus, which is associated with "loss through companies and friends". And teh Sabian symbol for 17 libra is "A retired sea captain watches ships enter and leave teh harbour". Maybe he invested in a place abroad to go live after his retirement? Confused
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What we're looking for is an event that has already happened so my eye goes to the last aspect made to Saturn, and that was the opposition from Mars on the turned 12th cusp (regio').

Whoops! Belay that. The last previous aspect to Saturn was the trine from the Sun. This could be the divorce from the querent, but equally it could be contact with someone else who represents his 7th house, such as a doctor or a lawyer. The Sun dignifies Jupiter but is 'fallen' by it, so the money plays a part in this contact for sure. If we can rule out the querent in this previous contact then I'd venture to guess that this is either a business partner, doctor, or lawyer - the latter particularly since the Sun is almuten of the 9th.
And look at the separating square from the Moon to Neptune on his 1st house cusp. There's deception in that, or at the very least a monumental cock-up somewhere!
==
Pete
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have another thought that I think fits the bill, Saturn Retrograde in his sixth, further detrimented by Cancer.

Drugs.

it fits the amount spent, it fits the embarrasment, not wanting anyone to know, it fits his illness, needs more pain killer than he's getting via drs, wouldn't want drs to know either because they wouldn't give him more, probably taken when his other drugs run out. this is Venutian in that it started out as a social/pleasure thing, and fits his Neptune on the MC.

Of course she may be correct in that it is an affair, but with Neptune on the 7th cusp I dont think so. I think you have a man with an illness further debilitated by a drug problem. I think too, she needs to have a medical check up to make certain his clandestine activities arent' the end of her.

Witht he South node the POF and Jupiter all in the 3rd house of communication, siblings and community, I think that this lack of communication can indeed be a problem. She needs to pay attention to some kind of communication need I should think.

did you notice that the Moon is conjunct Algol? In the tenth? With the North Node so close to the 10th house cusp, I'd say this issue will get some publicity as well. Pluto in the 5th house, destruction of romance and pleasure? I'd say that was the end of this relationship. Mars in her sixth, mars in the sixth if I recall Lilly says is a good placement for health? She should be doing better? Also Trine Moon... have to think about this a bit. Algol activated by Mars if I recall, so moon Mars activation might be interesting. I wish her well, but i think she's on a crusade and this just looks very unpleasant all round. I would not want to be in the middle of this family mess.

Granny

Confused
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