The Sun and the Moon in the Personality

1
Hi People,

Surprising as it may be, I found that two of the most important factors in astrology are not all that well defined as far as what they stand for in the personality:

The Sun and the Moon

Surely, there is a heap of different ideas offered. Let's look at a few.

The Sun can represent:
- the ego
- the present personality
- the future personality (whatever this may mean)
- the Animus or inner Father image
- the creative self
- the transpersonal (higher, inner, spiritual - whatever you like) self.

One idea being that the ego is in fact identical with the Solar (Soul) self, which may not have been realized or actualised so far.

The Moon symbolizes:
- the ego (once again)
- the past self (whatever this may mean)
- the subconscious mind
- the emotions
- the inner child
- the Anima or inner Mother image
- the Jungian shadow self, meaning Animus or Anima, depending on the native's gender)

One thought being that the ego or Earthly personality is reflecting the light of the Solar self.

Let's not forget to consider also how that important relationship between the Sun and the Moon expresses itself in the personality.

By the way, I don't intend to limit this thread to a discussion of modern psychological astrology. I feel that traditional astrology with its rich symbolism may indeed have something important to say on this topic. So modernists and traditionalists, don't hold back, please!

Cheers,
Michael

2
At least for a woman I think the Sun represents something absolutely vital, the most important thing in the world, which is usually but not always manifested as a relationship with a man, boyfriend, husband or father.

I was looking at a particularly poignant moment in time for me, and transiting Uranus was within one degree of squaring my natal Sun. Obviously this transit went direct and retrograde over this point for a couple of years. But its first hit was a spiritual experience I will never forget. I had spent the weekend staying with a friend, we had been to a concert and another day had a long walk in the moors near where she lived and gone into a very old church, Saxon I think. I knew somebody was going to come and talk to us, and the priest did, I said something about Jung and he started talking about blood symbolism, and said something like he had studied Jung. He had written a lot about it, and sent me his writings, which sadly I lost, that was the kind of thing I wanted to keep forever. Anyway when I got home that Sunday evening, after a long rickety bus ride over the moors, I was dreamy but not sleepy and sat in a chair feeling very peaceful, with vivid waking dreams, that I was hovering above somebody who was the most important person in my heart, but dead and I needed to bring them to life, so was pouring my blood over them from an amphora. That blood was all my life energy.

(I also once had what might have been a near death experience, when transiting Neptune squared my Sun. Incredibly beautiful and peaceful.)

I got disturbed by somebody yelling at me to go to bed, even though I must have been very quiet. It destroyed the trance, and I couldn't sleep anyway that night. It was like living in a house with a shark who can smell blood, the tiniest sounds you make or even your breathing (malignant Pisces).

That Uranus transit did later on create a relationship, but nothing that could compare with that brief inner vision.

And the malignant Pisces threw out the priest's essays on blood symbolism.

My Sun is probably not in good aspects, though it does sometimes throw out some false dawns when transited by planets like Uranus and Jupiter. Some very heavy duty outer planet transits to my Sun coincided with meeting my "father" the one and only time, and I found him creepy and just couldn't meet him again. Also a long term relationship, which for some reason I was drawn to and he eventually stopped seeing me. There were strong transits to my Sun when I got a letter that my "father" had died, which happened at the same time as a promising relationship just died on me, somebody I had been chatting to online who I felt a lot of rapport with suddenly started emailing me and then stopped, probably for logical reasons like distance, but the planets said so.

My experience is to underestimate the needs of the Sun at my peril. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-3HUU2E6OM

4
The luminaries, like the other planets, have a variety of meanings, notably in horary astrology. The main meanings of the sun and moon in birth charts seem to have shifted over time. Some of the traditional ones are:

Sun: masculine, diurnal, hot, dry, capable of damaging planets that come to close to it, otherwise generally benefic as the source of light and life, the monarch, the father, creativity, divinity, nobility, status, honour. A debilitated sun can indicate the "down" side of nobility: proud, arrogant, domineering.

Moon: feminine, nocturnal, cold, moist. Women generally, the mother, the queen, biological life and watery things, changeable, adaptable, passivity.

In years past, most people's sense of self wasn't terribly important to anyone. The sun's self-actualizing proclivities were projected onto people who did have this potential: the monarch; and within the family, the father as the most autonomous of the family members. The personality (i.e., soul) was more associated with the ascendant, moon, or perhaps a blend of factors.

As recently as the mid-20th century, few women were expected to have much of a personal identity apart from their family relations. The woman's identity was tied to that of her father or husband, symbolized by the sun. The sun in a woman's chart might indicate the type of man she hoped to marry, because she wasn't going to be up to much on her own.

In "my" modern natal astrology, the sun indicates one's identity or sense of self. The moon indicates one's emotional, subconscious nature and needs, experience of one's mother, and feelings about home. (Cf. the MC/IC axis.)

Then we can begin putting these building blocks together, starting with placements within houses, signs, and aspects.

We also have to clarify what we want to know about the chart, because the meanings of the sun and moon can change, accordingly. Do we want to know about someone's emotional needs, or what she seeks in a new home?

One concept I don't make much of is the notion that the moon transmits only reflected light. All of the planets do this, or they wouldn't be visible.

5
Michael, I'm not sure. The Moon does things to the rest of the chart that the Sun doesn't, it is an entirely different kind of entity. The Moon acts on other planets, like Mars, Venus or the Sun. A Moon Mars conjunction seems to say more about the person's Mars than their Moon. The Moon seems to be about giving birth, in both male and female charts.

I think women tend to look for some man to play out their Sun, when it is actually part of themselves. The Sun is interesting because it used to have a binary twin, which is why it is called Solus, meaning alone, solitary. There is a goddess called Sulis, after the Sun. The most interesting manifestation of a transit to the Sun was the inner vision experience, to me. It was like a glimpse of my soul.
Last edited by fleur on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Waybread,

Your post is quite illuminating. :lol: Thanks.

How do you think did the symbolism of the Luminaries change over time?

For clarification, are you seeing typical male and female characteristics as primarily culturally conditioned? Some earlier posts of yours made me think this, already, like when we were talking about Jungian psychology. Correct me if I'm getting you wrong.

Either way, I think it's in line with the OP to remark here that, IMHO, gender has a natural meaning both physically and psychologically - it's not simply a matter of what kind of toys your parents gave you when you were little. Even though it holds true that each individual has both poles inherent to them (actually, again on the psychological as well as on the physical level), and that society did not always fairly take this into account.

But looking here at the basic question just biologically, hormone balances (which no doubt have to do with our ways of thinking and acting) are quite different. It's also easy to see the connection with an individual's potential motherhood and fatherhood, respectively - presupposing different physical and, in conjunction with this, psychological and behavioural attributes.
One concept I don't make much of is the notion that the moon transmits only reflected light. All of the planets do this, or they wouldn't be visible.
That's right. But all of the visible planets can be seen as ego-related (pun intended).
Last edited by Michael Sternbach on Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Fleur wrote:
I think women tend to look for some man to play out their Sun, when it is actually part of themselves.
Well, the same holds true for men and their Moon. We all are looking for our missing half ever since original hermaphroditic (wo)man got split into two halves. So says Plato in his Symposium, at least. I think, metaphysically this story has a lot of meaning to it.
The Sun is interesting because it used to have a binary twin, which is why it is called Solus, meaning alone, solitary. There is a goddess called Sulis, after the Sun.
Are you referring to the theory that our Sun is accompanied by a brown dwarf star orbiting him far out?

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Michael Sternbach wrote:
Are you referring to the theory that our Sun is accompanied by a brown dwarf star orbiting him far out?
I hadn't heard of that, sounds interesting though.

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Michael Sternbach wrote:Fleur,

You might find these links revealing; they will provide you with some information and ideas on the hypothetical binary of the Sun both astronomically and metaphysically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(h ... ical_star)

http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/

Personally, I think of the Sun/Dark Star system as comparable to the Earth/Moon system.

Don't forget to share your thoughts on this. :)

Michael
Thanks, I will have a read at them now.

11
I was looking at some transits to the chart of somebody I know, at the time he suddenly found the career that was ideally suited to him, he was good at it and it paid quite well. There were massive transits to his Sun from Pluto, Uranus and Jupiter.

These transits to his Sun didn't seem to reflect any personal relationship at the time, that was later transits to his Moon. His Sun transits were about his own personal power and potency.

It would be interesting to look at women's charts and see if powerful transits to their Suns were synchronous with relationships with a man or finding their career, or inner visions, or all three. Margaret Thatcher's Sun was 19.5 degrees Libra, and she was starting to be powerful in her career as Pluto was transiting 19.5 degrees Libra in 1979.

I have noticed that the Sun might affect physical health, and life itself, the vital force. Though there are usually also transits to natal Jupiter at the time of death, and we live through a lot of transits that appear to have the potential to kill us.

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Michael Sternbach wrote:Waybread,

...

How do you think did the symbolism of the Luminaries change over time?
I tried to give some examples in my previous post. In the past, the sun in a woman's chart would be more likely interpreted as the sort of man she hoped to marry. If might indicate honours in a man's chart. The word "ego" didn't exist as a psychological concept until Freud popularized it.
For clarification, are you seeing typical male and female characteristics as primarily culturally conditioned? Some earlier posts of yours made me think this, already, like when we were talking about Jungian psychology. Correct me if I'm getting you wrong.
Yes, most of the attributes we see as "typically" male or female are a result of cultural conditioning. One of the best pieces of evidence for this viewpoint is a cross-cultural and/or historical look at different traditional societies. Most norms vary widely, which they shouldn't do if they were biologically hard-wired.

However, this isn't to deny that in any society (such as mine) there are deeply entrenched beliefs about gender, which most people think are very real and encoded on the xx or xy chromosomes.
Either way, I think it's in line with the OP to remark here that, IMHO, gender has a natural meaning both physically and psychologically - it's not simply a matter of what kind of toys your parents gave you when you were little. Even though it holds true that each individual has both poles inherent to them (actually, again on the psychological as well as on the physical level), and that society did not always fairly take this into account.

But looking here at the basic question just biologically, hormone balances (which no doubt have to do with our ways of thinking and acting) are quite different. It's also easy to see the connection with an individual's potential motherhood and fatherhood, respectively - presupposing different physical and, in conjunction with this, psychological and behavioural attributes.
Certainly we can go through a shopping list of biological traits, and find some that are almost exclusively male and some that are almost exclusively female. (I say "almost" because of trans-gendered people, and those who, at birth, have "ambiguous" sexual identities.)

The question, however, is that if biological men tend to have a suite of genetically-determined traits, what does this necessarily imply in terms of how they function as social creatures? As thinking individuals? And the answer is, far less than we are culturally conditioned to believe. Ditto for biological women.

Babies? Some women can't have babies for medical reasons. Or choose not to have them. And many well-to-do women who have/had babies had hardly any role in raising them. In western society, we see examples of the foster-parent, apprenticeship, or nanny throughout history. Heavy lifting? We might look at some traditional hunter-gatherer societies where women did most of the heavy lifting, and men's economic roles were largely restricted to hunting.

I wrote
One concept I don't make much of is the notion that the moon transmits only reflected light. All of the planets do this, or they wouldn't be visible.
You wrote
That's right. But all of the visible planets can be seen as ego-related (pun intended).
Sorry, I didn't get the pun. But yes, they can be. Or emotionally related, for that matter. Mars rules anger, Saturn rules fear, and so on.