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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Transpluto
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 499
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject: Transpluto Reply with quote

It is seen as an asymmetry by many a modern astrologer that four signs in the zodiac are ruled by only two planets. Even though personally I accept the concept of double domiciles, I agree that it would be most pleasing to have a single planet ascribed to each signs as its primary ruler.

There have been a number of suggestions for those missing “rulers”, especially Chiron and some asteroids. But, in my opinion, to be in accordance with the principles of the domicile scheme, the additional sign rulers should be further out and moving slower than Pluto.

One of the suggestions for an actual additional planet that seems to influence a number of astrologers if nothing else, is Transpluto as calculated by the French astronomer F. M. E. Sevin in 1946. Even though Sevin's planet could never be confirmed observationally, an ephemeris became available in the mid 60s, and a number of astrologers started exploring the topic. They seemingly gathered evidence for Transpluto's astrological significance, and a number of books and articles were published. Today, Transpluto has a certain fan base not least among German and Swiss astrologers.

However, various authors differ in the way they see this planet, to one degree or another. Depending on their outlook, they call it Bacchus, Isis, or Chaos-Apeiron. Its domicile is said to be either Taurus, Libra, Virgo, or even Pisces.

Since I have always been a curious bunny regarding material that would perhaps help to complete my astrological view of the Universe, I started experimenting with Transpluto some time in the 90s. First I was exploring the Isis-Virgo conception, later the Bacchus-Taurus theory. I found the latter more convincing, in some regards. Some of the delineations based on TP ruling Libra seem to make sense, too; in my scheme, this sign might be looked at as the planet's secondary domicile.

However, even though I find TP to be an interesting additional consideration in delineating a chart occasionally, I regard him as a pure working hypothesis for the time being. There is indeed some astronomical evidence suggesting the existence of one or more still undiscovered major planets in the solar system, however, it's not unambiguous at the moment, and in particular there seem to be little grounds to believe in Sevin's Transpluto – seen from this perspective, anyway. Maybe what Sevin unwittingly found is something like an “energy body” far out in the solar system which he thought of as a physical planet. This might explain its potential astrological significance. It's not unusual for us astrologers to work with factors that don't exist tangibly, such as planetary nodes etc.

So I am starting this thread with an open but critical mind. Maybe somebody would like to share or discuss their experiences or thoughts regarding this elusive topic... whatever they may be.

Best,
Michael
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 711

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.librarising.com/astrology/tables/transpluto.html

You can put IsisTranspluto into individual charts using Astrodienst, h48.

As you say, there is an ephemeris available and Lyn Koiner has one.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4966
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Michael,

Thanks. I haven't heard of this before.

Most of the astrological discussion of hypothetical outer planets I have seen before comes from the so called Trans-Neptunian bodies used by Alfred Witte's Hamburg School and modern Uranian astrologers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Witte

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_School_of_Astrology

On the subject of 'hypothetical planets' I thought this interview with Bernard Eccles might be of interest. He wrote a book with Eric Morse entitled Dark Stars which used the hypothetical planet Phaethon which is located between Jupiter and Mars:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/bernard.html

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 711

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Michael,

Thanks. I haven't heard of this before.

Most of the astrological discussion of hypothetical outer planets I have seen before comes from the so called Trans-Neptunian bodies used by Alfred Witte's Hamburg School and modern Uranian astrologers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Witte

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_School_of_Astrology

On the subject of 'hypothetical planets' I thought this interview with Bernard Eccles might be of interest. He wrote a book with Eric Morse entitled Dark Stars which used the hypothetical planet Phaethon which is located between Jupiter and Mars:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/bernard.html

Mark


I would love to be able to put Phaethon into charts.

The only thing stopping me from doing massive amounts of research on it is having to look it up separately, and the ephemeris in the book only starts at 1900. I think I have worked out roughly that it has a 77 year cycle, so 1900 is equivalent to 1823 and 1746, etc.

Ok, here is a chart I have been looking at, and I will try to work out where Phaethon falls in it. This is working blind, as I have not tried to do this before. Ok, his Phaethon is 7 degrees Taurus, if I have calculated correctly. That gives its antiscion 23 degrees Leo, which squares his Venus Chiron conjunction, which I have already noticed seemed relevant to his experience of the French Revolution. Uranus in 23 degrees Leo and Pluto in 23 degrees Aquarius were transiting when his father, King Louis XVI, was taken to the guillotine.

Also I find it interesting that IsisTranspluto is in a separating conjunction to his Sun, which seems appropriate for a King that never ruled, and King Edward VIII who abdicated also has a separating conjunction of IsisTranspluto to his Sun ( http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Edward_VIII,_King_of_England Sun 2 degrees Cancer, IsisTranspluto 7 degrees Cancer).

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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is info on Louis XVII as I suspect many here will know nothing about him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France

A sad destiny indeed. I dont know about Phaethon. But a few general considerations that I notice:

-Venus the ASC ruler and Lord 8 is in the 8th whole sign + equal house closely conjunct the malefic fixed star Algol.

-Moon domicile dispositor is Venus Lord 8 in the 8th WSH/Equal.

-Mercury Lord 12 opposing ASC.

-Mercury in the bound of Saturn

-Sun opposing Neptune

-Uranus conj MC by declination

-Sun contra-antiscion Jupiter (Lord 6)

-ASC in bound of Saturn. MC in bound of Mars.

-Venus Lord 1+8 conj Jupiter (Lord 6) by declination

-Venus in the bound of Saturn.

-Born in the hour of Saturn

-Pluto conjunct Mars (Lord 7). Pluto is the only Out of Bounds planet here.

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 711

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marie Antoinette's Phaethon, again if my calculation is accurate, is 19 degrees Scorpio, giving an antiscion of 11 degrees Aquarius. When she was beheaded on 16th October 1793, Phaethon was 0 degrees Aries retrograde. So natally Phaethon's antiscion was squaring her Sun and Venus, and these seem to be getting outer planet transits when she went to the guillotine.

Chiron is retrograde at the time of her beheading, and at the beginning of October 1793 had been 11.5 degrees Leo, exactly squaring her Sun and Venus, and opposite her Phaethon's antiscion. Also, transiting Jupiter and Moon's node to her natal Mercury seem to be relevant to her final end.

The French Revolution seems to be about Pluto in Aquarius. And Uranus in Leo, sudden disruption to the King.

King Louis XVI's Phaethon is 20 or 21 degrees Leo. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Louis_XVI,_King_of_France
Transiting Pluto at 21 degrees Aquarius was opposing his natal Phaethon. Broken King (Phaethon in Leo)opposed by powerful masses (Pluto in Aquarius)?



Last edited by Fleur on Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:18 pm; edited 9 times in total
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Fleur



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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to digress, Phaethon is fascinating, lying between the personal planets and the planets of manifestation, between Mars and Jupiter. I have seen it active in charts of lottery winners at the time of the win, and at times of traumatic change. Adolf Hitler's Phaethon is about 3 degrees Taurus (confirmation of exact point gratefully received) which squared his Midheaven and conjoined his Sun, and was transited by Pluto and IsisTranspluto in his last moments http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf The conjunction of IsisTranspluto and Pluto in early Leo during the second world war seems to be relevant to huge changes as well as the holocaust.

I will try to answer the question about IsisTranspluto, as I have a lot of observations about it, some not focussed or clear. It is a lot of information that could sprawl all over the place.
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Quote:
I would love to be able to put Phaethon into charts.

The only thing stopping me from doing massive amounts of research on it is having to look it up separately, and the ephemeris in the book only starts at 1900. I think I have worked out roughly that it has a 77 year cycle, so 1900 is equivalent to 1823 and 1746, etc.


But surely, if this hypothetical planet is calculated to have an orbit between Mars and Jupiter its orbital period would need to be less than Jupiter which takes less than 12 years to cover the whole zodiac? Mars travels through the zodiac in approximately 2 years. So Phaethon's orbital period is likely to be closer to 7 than 77 years. No?

Mark
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 711

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Fleur wrote:
Quote:
I would love to be able to put Phaethon into charts.

The only thing stopping me from doing massive amounts of research on it is having to look it up separately, and the ephemeris in the book only starts at 1900. I think I have worked out roughly that it has a 77 year cycle, so 1900 is equivalent to 1823 and 1746, etc.


But surely, if this hypothetical planet is calculated to have an orbit between Mars and Jupiter its orbital period would need to be less than Jupiter which takes less than 12 years to cover the whole zodiac? So its orbital period is likely to be closer to 7 than 77 years. No?

Mark


Phaethon returns to approximately the same spot on the same date every 77 years. For example, on 1st January 1900 it was 11 degrees Libra 31 minutes, and on 1st January 1977 it was 10 degrees Libra 36 minutes. On 1st January 1910 it was 13 degrees Sagittarius 52 minutes, and on 1st January 1987 it was 13 degrees Sagittarius 17 minutes.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

Thanks for your interest!


Fleur,

Visit

http://serennu.com/astrology/ephemeris.php

for calculating all kinds of hypothetical (as well as countless other) celestial bodies, including Phaeton (enter the code "3200" in "Additional objects") and Transpluto ("42").

Generally, I find it somewhat questionable to reckon positions of unverified planets (or whatever they may be) for charts dated hundreds of years back in time. Even with some observed asteroids this can be tricky.

Feel free to mention whatever you wish, folks, but I suggest that we try to stay focussed on TP. He is elusive enough, imo.
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Fleur



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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was curious about this lady, she was the icon of 1968 in Germany, and considered extremely beautiful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uschi_Obermaier

I have guessed at the time of birth, as there isn't one available. She has natal Venus opposition Pluto's antiscion, and it is this opposition that was transited by IsisTranspluto around 1968.

Otherwise, all those planets in Libra being transited by Pluto in the early 1970's, and their antiscia transited by Pluto in the late 1960's

Her natal Phaethon is about 22 degrees Sagittarius.



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astralwanderer



Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 140
Location: Southwest England

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:08 am    Post subject: Phaethon Reply with quote

Phaethon has a 5 1/2 year cycle. Since it's position falls in the asteroid belt, it travels around the zodiac in about the same time as the asteroids. You can reference this in Bernard's interview which is posted on the skyscript site.

The only program that calculates Phaethon is the cloud-based astroapp. However, I think the listing that contains the data is in the paid-for version. However, if you use astroapp, you can find the position for any chart you calculate.

I am trying to work out the parameters so that it can be included in user-defined points within Solar Fire. This is with the kind help of Bernard. However, the original code that Eric Morse used to generate Phaethon positions is rather unclear. It's work in progress at the moment.

It will then be possible to provide Solar Fire users who are interested in Phaethon with the orbital elements needed to calculate Phaethon using Solar Fire.
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astralwanderer



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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Phaethon Reply with quote

Fleur - I think you will find Phaethon is in Libra about every 5 years or so - it was around 10-11 Libra in Oct 1904, Feb 1909, mid-Oct 1913, early Aug 1918, etc. It's in Eric's ephemeris in Dark Stars. You will see that the cycle is far shorter than 77 years.
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"...the motions that are akin to the divine in us are the thoughts and revolutions of the universe."

Plato, Timaeus, 90.
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Fleur



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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Phaethon Reply with quote

astralwanderer wrote:
Fleur - I think you will find Phaethon is in Libra about every 5 years or so - it was around 10-11 Libra in Oct 1904, Feb 1909, mid-Oct 1913, early Aug 1918, etc. It's in Eric's ephemeris in Dark Stars. You will see that the cycle is far shorter than 77 years.


Thank you for very useful information.

I did notice that without fail there is a 77 year cycle where Phaethon returns to the same position within a 1 degree orb on the same day of the year. I found this useful for finding Phaethon's position for dates before 1900. To be able to extrapolate back a hundred years with 1 degree of accuracy.

I am sure there is a shorter cycle, but it doesn't help me to find Phaethon's position in the 1700's or 1800's, and needs complicated mathematical calculations which when repeated every 5.5 years will increase inaccuracies.
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astralwanderer



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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Phaethon Reply with quote

Hi Fleur - thanks for that clarification. That's a very interesting insight. I'm fascinated by Phaethon too so I will look into your finding.

One further point of clarification. Michael refers to the asteroid Phaethon (3200). This asteroid is not what Bernard and Eric are referring to. The Phaethon they discuss in Dark Stars is definitely a hypothetical body although associated with the same general orbital area of the solar system as the asteroid belt.
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