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Weak malefics - even more malefic?
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i feel that larxene is really taking up my post/thrust from Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:49 pm in his post discussing planetary phase (as an important consideration) and how one factors this into strength or weakness.. see his post from Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:16 am.

i think it is easy to say mars in scorpio is a strong and effective placement for mars.. it is also easy to say this same mars on an angle in a chart, in particular the ascendant or midheaven suggests a particular strength directly connected to the sign and house placement. what is not so easy to comment on with any authority is just how much mars relationship, or planetary phase to the sun, or it being a diurnal or nocturnal chart will alter all this. this is my own example and can be changed to a cadent house to give a different impression for example.. i mentioned how jb morin makes this distinction - essentially what he calls celestial as opposed to terrestrial position of the planet, but there is no discussion of planetary phase, or only in so far as a planet in retrograde motion is in poor pp to the sun.. others on this thread have discussed a planet being under the beams of the sun - another issue directly connected to pp, but no one is going to be able to stick the data in a machine to manufacture a universal guideline for astrologers..

well, there are those means of scoring points that lilly and the fellow before him, i can't remember his name (Johannes Schöner) - came up with these systems for figuring out the strength or weakness of a planet.. they even factored in aspect relationships to other planets, in partile with whatever and etc, as having some bearing on the strength or weakness of a planet, but i don't believe anyone can answer this question in an objective manner without giving greater or lesser weight to any of these considerations and not being able to explain why they gave greater or lesser weight to these same factors..

so, i think astrologers are left on their own to come to a position on the strength or weakness of a planet and to attempt to answer the question of yairs which is the basis for this thread. giving examples as michael did with einstein and tesla are a good start in trying to find answers, keeping an open mind to the relevance of sign position based on yet another topic that astrologers don't agree on - tropical/sidereal.

let me offer an analogy using gardening as a basis for the analogy.. a plant needs sun, water and a combination of certain conditions to come forth most favourably.. so much depends on the type of plant, what the special requirements are.. we can say they all need sun and water, and proper care of the farmer/gardener, but this important variable - different plants having different requirements, we can see how making generalizations on how planets influence a particular chart negatively or positively is similar to treating all plants as one and the same.. they aren't.. neither are people.. all charts have to be treated in an individual context.. i think a malefic in a sign it has an affinity for, in a house it can express itself well thru, and in strong planetary phase, is only part of the overall consideration of figuring out a chart.. many other considerations hinge on each other.. conclusions aren't only made from isolating factors, but need to be integrated with all the other factors that go into a chart..

but again the simple answer - strong malefic is better in being less negative then a weak malefic and offering all the positives associated with the same planet - from my own pov.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
well, there are those means of scoring points that lilly and the fellow before him,


I don't ever recall Lilly or anyone else for that matter, using any of the point systems in delineation. In other words I can't recall any astrologer saying something like this, "Well Jupiter has 7 points Mars has 6 and Venus has 4 so Jupiter's influence will outweigh the others."

This leads me to believe the point systems were suggested as guidelines only, not quantifiable positions and therefore conclusions. Morin also mentions point systems, but again doesn't seem to use them in delineation in an effort to quantify anything. Where they can be used, for example, is knowing that Mars in early Scorpio is very powerful, more powerful than any other planet in any position in its domicile. That brings Mars to our attention - not to measure anything, but just to pay serious attention to it.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Thanks for sharing your differentiated outlook on Einstein's chart. I feel that your idea that a planet in its fall is inclined to express itself in unorthodox or atypical ways is particularly worthy of consideration.


Thanks

Quote:
Still, I wonder how many astrologers would recognize that the chart we are talking about belongs to an extraordinary scientific mind if they wouldn't know it in the first, even by reading the chart in depth.


I wonder the same about modern astrologers if they don't use the factors I mentioned. What are we left with? In a similar discussion with modern astrologers the placement of Uranus was noted - but that Uranus is the handle of a bucket is surely not enough?! Why not Uranus the erratic, or Uranus the revolutionary - why Uranus the genius? Uranus may well be relevant, fine, but we surely need more than to simply note it's a bucket of a chart - in fact being a bucket of a chart will be FAR more common place than all the things I mentioned, particularly in relation to heliacal rising/setting. In the end we can see hints and glimpses here and there through both systems. When we deal with something like genius at the level we mean for Einstein, we're looking at something particularly uncommon, so much so that any of our "middle of the road" cookbook analyses must surely be thrown out the window.

Quote:
I would appreciate if you could also say something on Tesla's Saturn/Mercury conjunction, if you can find the time.


I am not sure what to say about it. Maybe if you gave me some idea of what you are expecting or not expecting?
Remember that I don't follow the view that malefics debilitated necessarily mean something terrible, there can be an unorthodox quality, but in addition I certainly don't go with the view, in case this is what you mean (I don't want to put words in your mouth) that Mercury conjunct Saturn makes one stupid. Especially as, again, in this chart, Saturn is just escaping the beams (purified but weakened), Mercury, again, has just made a heliacal appearance. Ring a bell? We had similar with Einstein - Saturn going under the beams whilst Mercury made an appearance. Here Saturn is under the beams, either making an appearance or will soon, whilst Mercury makes an appearance. In both cases Saturn is essentially weak and so more prone to display, amongst other things, more uncomfortable or unorthodox behaviour. One interesting thing about this chart is that Mercury is retrograde - I am not sure why the chart doesn't show it though! So it's already been combust - normally when Mercury heliacally rises it is escaping forward in motion, oriental of the sun, here it is escaping through retrogradation and is occidental of the sun.

All these things may be adversely affecting to Tesla too. But I do think that once again we have Mercury stamped in its significations on the chart though a phasis.

I have never really looked at his chart properly before (of if I have I've forgotten) so I'd appreciate if someone else just double checked my facts here, cos I just briefly looked now.

I don't know a whole lot about Tesla's life and we don't have a really accurate time of birth anyway.
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Larxene



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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Michael,

I am not completely convinced yet about which phases affect both factors, but at the moment these are my hypotheses:

1. Heliacal phases affecting Strength only:

a) Visible
b) Heliacal rising, heliacal setting

2. Heliacal phases affecting Strength and Favourability:

a) Invisible: Under the beams, Combustion, Cazimi


This follows "basic" principles, doesn't it? I have seen cazimi's beneficial effects on two or three charts, but that is still a small sample. Invisibility is generally negative (except for cazimi), but it depends on the other favourability conditions. If the other factors are positive, then the planet will actually have BOTH good and bad effects. That's the tricky thing about favourability, we don't always add them like numbers and then say it's positive if the number is positive or vice versa. Both good and bad things will happen...but again, there's a lot of detail to it.

This is why I said I don't want to do the work...Strength conditions are easier and fewer. Favourability conditions are more complex. Sect, zodiacal dignities, houses (in brief: 2, 8, 6, 12 are unfavourable), planetary combinations (i.e. aspects and conjunctions of planets). The last factor is the most complex. I am still working on it. That alone can fill several blog posts. Smile

Oh, and there's one more. The favourability also depends on the topic of investigation! *pukes blood*

(t-t-then there's also the nature of the native, which affects his values, and values are sometimes important when assessing whether something is positive or not... crying)





Therese,

The non-relevant results can be explained by the fact that there are many other factors affecting any given chart aside from a Mars being placed in the 6th. Now let's assess the relevant results. I will go through the tropical zodiac first, then the sidereal.

Before that, the comment that planets in the 6th may affect matters related to the 10th is not original. I have seen this reference in Maternus as well. However, it is important to note that planets on the 10th (and perhaps those making a heliacal appearance) will usually take precedence over planets in the 6th, with regards to profession. Maternus also mentions that planets on the other angles can become lord of profession when there are no planets on the 10th.

Without further ado...


Results

A) Aries (7/13=53.8%, 3.5/7=50%) 0 Charts omitted

1. Tennis professional
2. Swimming, Olympic Gold
3. Traveller
4. President of an astrological association
5. C-section birth
6. Person who committed suicide
7. Incest victim

B) Scorpio (7/18=38.9%, 2.5/7=35.7%) 2 Charts omitted

1. Astrologer, founder of software company, research in science and engineering
2. Entrepreneur
3. Political revolutionary
4. Fatal birth defect
5. Infant mortality
6. AIDs patient
7. Drugs user

C) Capricorn (8/18=44.4%, 3/8=37.5%) 1 Chart omitted

1. Top rank civil servant
2. Occultist with law degree
3. Acupuncturist
4. Soccer player, died from accident through blunt head trauma
5. Psychic with dramatic red hair, created havoc in lives of believers
6. French terrorist
7. Youth killed by lightning while surfing ["It's super effective! Squirtle fainted!"]
8. AIDs patient, partner died from AIDS


These are the effects that I personally consider to be potentially related to a domiciled or exalted Mars in the 6th house.

With regards to Aries, Mars shares rulership over physical sports with Mercury, so both tennis and swimming are Martial occupations or activities. The swimmer won first place, showing Mars' competitive and dominant nature. From reading Valens, we know that Mars is associated with travel, especially when it is in a cadent house (in general, malefics are associated with travel, but especially when in cadent houses). Mars, when in his own places, is said to create leaders and generals, and being a president of an organisation may be one way in which this indication manifests. C-section birth is interesting; I have read in Dorotheus where he says that Mars helps with childbirth, because he cuts or something like that (as opposed to Saturn which causes stillbirths). In any case, a C-section birth requires making incisions to the woman's body, clearly a Martial event. The 6th place being a place of injuries is sufficient to explain the person who committed suicide. Finally, Mars IS associated with sexual crimes, so that explains the incest victim.

Next is Scorpio. B1 is a founder of a company, which in my mind is a kind of leader or initiator. He also did research in engineering, which is related to Mars, according to some people. Entrepreneurs tend to be independent and have leadership qualities as well. A political revolutionary is like a rebel, which is Martial. As for fatal birth defect, I suppose a planet in the 6th may signify this, but I would appreciate more details on what kind of defect we are talking about here. We cannot blame all bodily problems on Mars Smile. Infants who die within one year of birth is likely due to malefic influence; the fact that it occurs somewhat quickly makes it connected to Mars. Again, Mars is related to sexual illnesses when it is in the 6th. Scorpio also has rulership over the genitals. I think Mars also rules the genitals? Have to check. Lastly, we have a drugs user; this is a Martial event alright.

Now we come to Capricorn. C1 shows the ambition and competitiveness given by Mars, although civil servants are not Martial. Law is associated with Mercury/Mars, among other combinations. An acupuncturist uses needles, a penetrating/splitting tool. Soccer is a physical sport, and the player died of an accident through blunt trauma. Mars signified both good and bad events there. The psychic had red hair (dyed or natural?), and he ruined other people's lives. Sounds like a typical Martial nature there. Maybe his Ascendant ruler or the Moon is closely aspecting Mars. The terrorist is pretty much a Spartan character. The young person had a violent death, and it is a sudden one, so it is definitely Mars. The last person had AIDs, a sexual disease, and his partner died of the same disease. This is very appropriate; recall that Capricorn is a licentious sign.

Limitations of the Research

The main trouble is when we try to evaluate whether something is good or bad for the native. For example, is being a tennis professional a good thing for the native? The subjective experience is hard to tell from an outsider's perspective. Generally, being a sportsman is a good thing. Your body is healthier through regular exercise, you can become famous and have more money, and you will get to enjoy more and better sex. However, being a sportsman also makes a person liable to injury due to rigourously exerting his body, and sometimes your opponent may try to kill you Very Happy. An athlete's career is also rather short; I believe most of them retire by their early 30s or something. This example is meant to illustrate that many things in life have pros and cons, so this makes it harder to determine favourability.

Thus, the second number next to the sign's name will show the favourability rating of the effects according to my own values. This value is subjective. The higher the percentage, the more favourable the overall effects are. If the percentage is lower than 50%, it means that more negative effects are observed compared to positive effects.

The second limitation has to do with the small sample used. Each condition has less than 30 charts, so the likelihood of a biased sample is very high. It could be pure coincidence that there are more charts with unfavourable effects.

Conclusion

It would seem that Mars is more unfavourable in Scorpio (F=35.7%) and Capricorn (F=37.5%) compared to Aries (F=50%). Again, this is according to my perspective of which items are favourable, and which are unfavourable, so it is a subjective conclusion at best.

Discussion

This is interesting, but Yair Alon's question is whether weaker malefics are more malefic, not which of the signs are more malefic. So to complete this investigation, we need some data on Mars in his domiciles and exaltation, but this time on one of the angular houses. Maybe we should use 10th house next, Therese, as it relates to profession, which is also covered by the 6th. Please use the same technique (3 degrees orb) in order to ensure there is no error there.

Actually, even the conclusion above is suspect. First, Mars is supposed to prefer Scorpio over Aries, so why are his effects more malefic in Scorpio? We may need to investigate the sect of all the charts above. We might find a significantly greater number of diurnal charts, which might make Scorpio, a nocturnal sign, less favourable. That is, if we choose to ignore the idea of temperamental balancing.



I'm interested in analysing Cancer too, but I'm not feeling well right now, so I'll stop here.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
well, there are those means of scoring points that lilly and the fellow before him,


I don't ever recall Lilly or anyone else for that matter, using any of the point systems in delineation. In other words I can't recall any astrologer saying something like this, "Well Jupiter has 7 points Mars has 6 and Venus has 4 so Jupiter's influence will outweigh the others."

This leads me to believe the point systems were suggested as guidelines only, not quantifiable positions and therefore conclusions.

On the other hand, Lilly, CA. p. 178:
"In the next place I am to examine the fortitudes and debilities of the Planests: by the table of essential dignities Page 104. and the other Table of Page 115. I doe this more willingly that young Learners may better understand the use of both these Tables, which they will frequently have occasion to use."

And p. 181:
"You must ever consider, whether your Planet have more Fortitudes or Debilities, and having substracted the lesser number from the greate, make use of what remaines, whether they be Fortitudes or Debilities, and so judge."

It seems that the scoring was understood, and not mentioned in the judgement expressis verbis.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It seems that the scoring was understood, and not mentioned in the judgement expressis verbis.


It was not my intent to doubt the understanding of Lilly et al. It was not my intent to say the table has no value. It was my intent to point out that Lilly et al were not trying to quantify. Which is what I meant when I wrote:


Quote:
This leads me to believe the point systems were suggested as guidelines only, not quantifiable positions and therefore conclusions.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey tom - really glad you climbed down from the 'locked thread' mentality so we can continue here.

my comment on the point system was just a passing comment as well. it seems it was just a useful tool for an astrology beginner.
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
my comment on the point system was just a passing comment as well. it seems it was just a useful tool for an astrology beginner.


I recall at least one ancient astrologer using a quite elaborate system of scores for various kinds of dignities, but I am not sure who it was, at the moment. I'll try to find the reference.

Anyway, something like this seems to have be an important consideration for some, in a quantitative rather than qualitative manner.

Paul and Larxene, thank you both. I'll get back to you as soon as I have the time.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Therese,

The non-relevant results can be explained by the fact that there are many other factors affecting any given chart aside from a Mars being placed in the 6th.

Larxene, thanks for taking note of the lists. I had no particular agenda in making the lists except curiosity. So the lists aren’t ‘research’ as such, only what AstroDatabank had to offer in the way of charts with Mars in the 6th in certain signs and with a 3 degree orb to the ascendant degree.

Quote:
Now let's assess the relevant results. I will go through the tropical zodiac first, then the sidereal.

Before that, the comment that planets in the 6th may affect matters related to the 10th is not original.

No, but Morin particularly emphasized the different house trines of signs.

Quote:
I have seen this reference in Maternus as well. However, it is important to note that planets on the 10th (and perhaps those making a heliacal appearance) will usually take precedence over planets in the 6th, with regards to profession. Maternus also mentions that planets on the other angles can become lord of profession when there are no planets on the 10th.

Yes, there are different ideas of which planets have to do with one’s work and profession.

Quote:
Without further ado...(results)

(Results can be read in Larxene’s post above.)

Larxene, due to the zodiac issues, when I have time, I’ll reply to some of your ideas on the thread where the lists are posted. This will be in a day or two.

Quote:
Limitations of the Research

The main trouble is when we try to evaluate whether something is good or bad for the native. For example, is being a tennis professional a good thing for the native? The subjective experience is hard to tell from an outsider's perspective. Generally, being a sportsman is a good thing. Your body is healthier through regular exercise, you can become famous and have more money, and you will get to enjoy more and better sex.

At present I view the birth chart as primarily factual without judgement as to (for example) whether a particular profession is helpful or not to an individual. If an athlete is prone to serious injury, then that may be suggested by Mars in the 6th house.

Quote:
The second limitation has to do with the small sample used. Each condition has less than 30 charts, so the likelihood of a biased sample is very high. It could be pure coincidence that there are more charts with unfavourable effects.

As I said, the lists weren’t really a research project, but only lists due to curiosity about Mars in the 6th. ADB can't really be used for statistical research because it's just 36,000 (approximately) charts cobbled together from numerous sources. But it's the best collection we have for the study of various astrological factors. I'll try to find time to search for similar lists of Mars in the 10th at the nonagesimal.
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Larxene



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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Larxene, thanks for taking note of the lists. I had no particular agenda in making the lists except curiosity. So the lists aren’t ‘research’ as such, only what AstroDatabank had to offer in the way of charts with Mars in the 6th in certain signs and with a 3 degree orb to the ascendant degree.


You may not have had a goal in mind, but we can certainly make one henceforth. Smile

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Yes, there are different ideas of which planets have to do with one’s work and profession.


I believe there's even a method of using the application and separation of Mercury and the influences of other stars on him to find one's career. The technique was not explicated, but we can certainly see traces of it in Maternus and Valens.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Larxene, due to the zodiac issues, when I have time, I’ll reply to some of your ideas on the thread where the lists are posted. This will be in a day or two.


I suppose I should post my analysis of the sidereal results in that thread as well?

Therese Hamilton wrote:
At present I view the birth chart as primarily factual without judgement as to (for example) whether a particular profession is helpful or not to an individual. If an athlete is prone to serious injury, then that may be suggested by Mars in the 6th house.


That is an interesting approach, the no-value-judgements approach. Quite objective. Indeed, we need to know more information about this athlete in order to determine the valence.

But an interesting thought is that, if the person is prone to serious injuries, and then we attribute that to Mars in the sixth, we are already assuming the sixth to be indicative or axiomatic of injuries. There shouldn't be any problems though, as if we find no empirical evidence of the axiom, then we may be able to reject it. Still, that epistemological approach is...hmm..."because we have never seen it, so it doesn't exist." Empiricism is quite amusing. But I digress.

Quote:
As I said, the lists weren’t really a research project, but only lists due to curiosity about Mars in the 6th. ADB can't really be used for statistical research because it's just 36,000 (approximately) charts cobbled together from numerous sources. But it's the best collection we have for the study of various astrological factors. I'll try to find time to search for similar lists of Mars in the 10th at the nonagesimal.


Wonderful. I'll patiently wait for the list. I assume it will be posted in the sidereal thread.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
hey tom - really glad you climbed down from the 'locked thread' mentality so we can continue here.


Hey James, the "locked thread mentality" was to prevent the hijacking of the topic, which had been overtaken by things completely irrelevant, in the hopes it would pick up elsewhere without the distraction. Once that problem was gone the thread continued as intended.
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
But an interesting thought is that, if the person is prone to serious injuries, and then we attribute that to Mars in the sixth, we are already assuming the sixth to be indicative or axiomatic of injuries. There shouldn't be any problems though, as if we find no empirical evidence of the axiom, then we may be able to reject it...

Yes, indeed! I've done enough research projects that sometimes I begin to wonder if houses have any meanings at all, or if there are so many modifications that basic meanings are essentially mute.

Quote:

I suppose I should post my analysis of the sidereal results in that thread as well?

I'm sure Tom would prefer that. Then we can have a back and forth conversation about zodiac placements. I'll be copying some of your tropical commentary to that thread. You could post a note here to direct others to your sidereal commentary.

Quote:
Wonderful. I'll patiently wait for the list [Mars at the Nonagesimal, square the ascendant]. I assume it will be posted in the sidereal thread.

Yes, the lists will be posted on the sidereal thread because I like to compare the two zodiacs using these kinds of lists. Thank you for your feedback, Larxene. Very much appreciated.

Therese
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libra_rising



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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if this was addressed earlier, as I've only read 2 pages worth of this thread (and it's rather a dated one), I want to touch upon the concept of beams and combustion.

For one, there's cazimi which would help mitigate the negative effects of combustion, but one must be born within 17 minutes (?) of the time between the Sun and the effected planet. However, say the planet is already in detriment/fall, but is cazimi, that does not lift the essential debility (like Pisces Mercury both in exile and fallen).

The "solution" that can mitigate beams is called in Chariot. It's determined by terms and that shields the Sun's beams from (further) malefying the planet. When the effected planet is in its own terms, that's how it is in Chariot. If a beamed planet is in its own terms, it acts similar to that of the planet's dignity.

My Algol Mars is in exile (essential debility) and by general accounts, it is sunbeamed. However, my Mars is in Mars' terms (I go by Chaldean Terms) and thus, my Mars is in Chariot. My Lesser Malefic is debilitated, but it is in Chariot, and thus, acts according on its own, and not under the devastating control of the Sun (although my Sun is rather low powered in the sign of Gemini). Because it is debilitated Mars, my abilities are "hindered" in comparison to Mars in dignity or exaltation, however, being that my Mars is in its own terms, it can give the "appearance" and take up traits which functions like Mars in dignity. In my life, compared to my peers, and slightly older; my constitution is stronger and I'm physically resilient. I can outlast everyone in competition and regular life. I've survived things that most would not survive from and I'm the least likely suspect to be accused of wrongdoing.


Now comes my questions in this thread. What if Saturn is in dignity/exaltation and trines a debilitated, beamed/combusted planet? Does that prevent some of malefic effects from getting out of control? Does the energy get channeled better? Or does the energy not get expressed at all?

I ask because I have Libra Saturn and it trines my Algol Mars. Saturn is in exaltation, but Mars is in exile. However, my Mars is not under the Sun's beams, as it is in Chariot. Although I know the answer to the questions pertaining to me, I just want to see what others think; if not to apply theory to practice.
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