Arabic parts question 1 by Yukionna In a discussion on another board on the financial significator a question came up. When using the part of substance (or any other part which 'belongs' to one of the houses) it is said that one finds them by taking the distance between the degree of the ruler of the house, and the degree of the house itself, and projecting that from the Asc. So what degree does one take? I use WS, so it would always be zero. If using quadrant, then the degree varies depending on what system one uses. I'm a bit confused here. Yuki Quote Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:57 am
2 by johannes susato The modern day formula would be: As + cusp of second - lord of second Independently of the house system you would take the ecliptical longitudes of the positions, so the cusp of the second in ws is only 0, when the second house is Aries, for Virgo it would be 150 for example, and for Pisces 330. Quote Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:38 pm
3 by Yukionna Yes of course, I knew it had to be simple, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out what it was. Thanks! Quote Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:58 am
4 by Yukionna Here on Skyscript there are a few articles on the parts, and for this one it is said that for night charts the formula must be reversed. However, on Zollers translation of Bonatti's work on the parts, it says that it's the same by day and night. Which info is correct? Quote Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:16 am
5 by Becca You mean such as the Part of Marriage? The formula for a day chart versus a night chart will vary, thouh generally, it involves an equation and summation of the chart's Asc angle, relevant house cusp and planet. Say someone wants to know when, if ever, they will get married. Irregardless of gender, the formula is, roughly: Asc + 7thH cusp - Venus(natural sig for spouse) Suppose the numbers we want to input into our formula are: 10 Sco 46 + 10 Tau 46 - 2 Tau 09 = 19 Sco 23, as an example. Now we look to see when this point will be activated. The Lord, to get an idea about the dynamic of the marriage. I ike to pair Arabic Parts with Sabian Symbols. When we round up 19 Scorpio, we get to, Scorpio 20. A woman drawing two dark curtains aside. Keywords: courage, to dare, to investigate, suspicious person, to search/to show hidden events/facts > http://astrologycritics.com/sabian-symb ... ogy.html/8 Thus, we might presume that the marriage is carried out in secret or that this person, namely the 'wifes-to-be', is inclined to a small, intimate ceremony and as per the nature of Mars, the cirumstances surrounding the courtship could be one which is fraught with strife and conflict. Quote Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:03 pm
6 by Yukionna No, I was talking specifically of the part of substance. I know that the formula for certain parts, such as POF and Part of spirit, are reversed when it's a nocturnal chart. However, in Zoller's translation of Bonatti's 'On the Arabic parts' it says: The first part of the second house is called the part of substance or pars substantiae, which is taken by day or night from the lord of the house of substance to the degree of the house of substance and is projected from the ascendant. page 20 There's an article here on Skyscript though where it seems the formula needs to be reversed for a nocturnal chart: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/alparts.html Only the part isn't called part of substance there, but part of property. Formula is the same. So there's a discrepancy I'd like to clear. If it can be cleared. Sometimes it's just a matter of opinion. Quote Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:33 pm
7 by Levente Laszlo Hi Yukionna, I'd rather you didn't reverse it at night: the original formula devised by Dorotheus is for both the day and night, and this is the one repeated by all of his followers. (I mean a dozen or so of authors and works.) The article found on the referenced link is drawn from the translation of al-B?r?n?'s Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology, made by R. Ramsay Wright, but here the Arabic manuscript used gives both "change" and "same", which is clearly faulty, and the editor printed only "change". And don't worry about the name: the Greek bios and Arabic m?l in the name of the lot actually means the same, something that you can live on: wealth, property, or livelihood. Translations aren't uniformed, and that's that. Quote Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:42 pm
8 by Yukionna Ah Levente, thanks so much. This was really bugging me. I will follow your advise. Quote Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:45 pm
9 by Becca IMHO, you all make things more complicated than they need to be. Propery and Substance have the underlying commonalty of both being 2ndH matters. the lod of the house of substance refers to L2 the degree of the house of substance, the 2ndH cusp projected from the ascendant, the Asc Angle It's easy! Quote Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:37 pm
10 by johannes susato Becca wrote: I ike to pair Arabic Parts with Sabian Symbols. When we round up 19 Scorpio, we get to, Scorpio 20. A woman drawing two dark curtains aside. Keywords: courage, to dare, to investigate, suspicious person, to search/to show hidden events/facts > http://astrologycritics.com/sabian-symb ... ogy.html/8 To use Sabian symbols in traditional astrology is complicatig things, to learn how techniques as the lots work and that and how their origins are corrupted is not complicating things, but an inevitable necessity and highly interesting. Quote Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:54 pm
11 by Deb In any event, Levente's note about the mistake in Al Biruni's manuscript is very valuable information, for which I'm grateful Quote Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:08 pm
12 by Yukionna Becca wrote:IMHO, you all make things more complicated than they need to be. Propery and Substance have the underlying commonalty of both being 2ndH matters. the lod of the house of substance refers to L2 the degree of the house of substance, the 2ndH cusp projected from the ascendant, the Asc Angle Becca, I had no problem with the naming, and after my initial difficulties with the degree of the 2d house cusp not with that anymore either, just with the different information on reversal of the formula, yes or no. But that's been cleared now, so I can happily dive into the part of substance. Or property. All is well. Quote Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:28 pm