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6th house question

 
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: 6th house question Reply with quote

Short question here on 6th house meaning. I read somewhere that it's the house of people that are employed by us such as servants or employees, as opposed to our own work. I always thought our profession is the 10th, whereas what we actually do for a living is 6th. How do you handle that?
Yuki
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: 6th house question Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Short question here on 6th house meaning. I read somewhere that it's the house of people that are employed by us such as servants or employees, as opposed to our own work. I always thought our profession is the 10th, whereas what we actually do for a living is 6th. How do you handle that?
Yuki


Typically servants, slaves and labourers are 6th house. When we are recognised, or receive honours or attain some office, that is 10th house.

So in this sense, in a modern setting, many see the 10th as indicators of vocation or profession. The 6th then is those who do work for us.

I know some modern astrologers who state the 6th is what we do for a living, but I don't think it's a common idea amongst traditionally inclined astrologers who prefer to see those questions as pertaining more to the 10th. Of course if there are menial jobs or tasks we do, or when we just work a job because we're out of other options, then maybe we can be justified in describing those kinds of jobs as 6th house.

It's not universally accepted though. There was a discussion last year on the horary section about using the 6th or 10th for job/career questions. Lee Lehman uses the 6th for jobs she sees as menial, and the 10th for those she views as being more prestigious.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7639&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Yukionna



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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul.

I know some modern astrologers who state the 6th is what we do for a living, but I don't think it's a common idea amongst traditionally inclined astrologers who prefer to see those questions as pertaining more to the 10th. Of course if there are menial jobs or tasks we do, or when we just work a job because we're out of other options, then maybe we can be justified in describing those kinds of jobs as 6th house.

I suppose in my case that would be valid: my ruler of 9th goes into 6th (whole sign wise)
and I am a nurse who has worked in foreign countries my whole life.
Nursing might be considered menial or at least serving (and compared to slavery by some of my colleagues). Still, I've seen it work both ways in chart delineations, and maybe the distinction really is in how much recognition by society we get from what we do for a living.
In that sense, the majority of people's work would be 6th house. There are not so many who are up there in the 10th in my experience. Most are the work-ants really, millions of them and totally obscure.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 10th isn't just honours and high office. In Greek it's called praxis, 'action', and it's clear that Ptolemy, for instance, associated the midheaven with one's line of work. Other traditional authors do mention the 6th and 2nd in a supportive role, as (or if) they trine the 10th. If memory serves, Firmicus says something along these lines, but I haven't the time to look for it.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Thanks Paul.

I know some modern astrologers who state the 6th is what we do for a living, but I don't think it's a common idea amongst traditionally inclined astrologers who prefer to see those questions as pertaining more to the 10th. Of course if there are menial jobs or tasks we do, or when we just work a job because we're out of other options, then maybe we can be justified in describing those kinds of jobs as 6th house.

I suppose in my case that would be valid: my ruler of 9th goes into 6th (whole sign wise)
and I am a nurse who has worked in foreign countries my whole life.
Nursing might be considered menial or at least serving (and compared to slavery by some of my colleagues). Still, I've seen it work both ways in chart delineations, and maybe the distinction really is in how much recognition by society we get from what we do for a living.
In that sense, the majority of people's work would be 6th house. There are not so many who are up there in the 10th in my experience. Most are the work-ants really, millions of them and totally obscure.


6th is also 10th from 9th- explains your praxis in foreign countries.

PD
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Yukionna



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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derived houses..good point. I should use that technique more often, keep forgetting that.
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Snow-woman Smile,

Martin is correct. Maternus did mention the 2nd and 6th houses indirectly, although he doesn't describe the technique sufficiently:

Quote:
"Now we ought to know which [star] denotes [actions] for individual men and what actions it denotes. Moreover, there are three who denote actions for men--Mars, Venus, and Mercury. Therefore, these three [stars] denotes actions which was either in the MC or in dexter trine to the MC, or in sinister trine, or which was found in [one of] the other angles."

- Holden trans., p. 230-231.


The Bram equivalent is on page 145. Note that although Maternus did not explicitly state the 2nd and 6th houses, he seemed to have recommended the use of Equal Houses. Thus, to be in dexter or sinister trine to the MC is, in 30/31 cases, equivalent to being in the 6th and 2nd houses respectively.



Ptolemy disagrees, however. For him, if there are no planets on the MC nor making a heliacal phase, the domicile lord of the MC becomes the significator of Action automatically. He also accounts for menial/non-prestigious work using the domicile lord of the MC:

Quote:
"But where not any planet may be found so situated, neither making its appearance as above described, nor being in the mid-heaven, then that one, possessing the dominion of the mid-heaven, 2 is to be considered as lord of the employment: it is, however, only some occasional occupation which can be thus denoted; because persons, born under such a configuration, most commonly remain at leisure and unemployed."

- Ashmand trans., Book IV, Chapter IV.


My interpretation is that Ptolemy is also saying that these are the people with "odd jobs", or only work occasionally. If you read Robbin's translation (same chapter), you find that the translation is something like "such persons are often inactive", meaning that sometimes they have a proper profession, while at other times they remain without one.



Paul of Alexandria has an interesting interpretation for career. He was aware of both techniques mentioned by Ptolemy and Maternus. Although he seems to be a slightly younger contemporary of Maternus according to this timeline, I am not sure if he got the technique from the latter. Holden believed that the passage in Maternus was actually from the same source used by Ptolemy when the latter wrote that chapter on Actions. If Holden is right, then Paul might have gotten hold of this same source, and instead of omitting information like Ptolemy seemingly did (alternatively, we may infer that the Tetrabiblos is not complete or was edited in some way), he presented everything (or most things) intact.

Anyway, here's the passage:

Quote:
"The determination concerning what one does is grasped through its keenness from the stars having fast motion (I mean Ares, Aphrodite and Hermes), though certainly not every art and science is studied from these three.

The places that make the dealings all the more effectual in relation to the stars present in them are these: all the pivots, and the post-ascensions of these, and the sixth from the Horoskopos--the zoidion of the Midheaven being preferred above the other points, and the second zoidion from the Horoskopos being preferred among the post-ascensions."

- Schmidt trans., p. 59


There is more to what Paul elaborated (very intriguing information), but I'll leave it to you to read the rest.

The point here is that the Midheaven is preferred among the four angles, and the 2nd sign/house is preferred among the succeedents. This implies that the 6th sign/house is the least preferred among the nine houses, and this is logical, because cadent houses are the weakest.



In conclusion, different authors have diverging opinions on which factors are more important for finding the significator of Actions, but all three authors agree that the 10th house/MC has primacy over the other factors. So, if there's a prominent planet in the 10th, don't insist on looking at the 6th house planet(s). Look to the 10th. Practically speaking, if the chart has X in the 10th and Y in the 6th, I would say that the significators of Actions are X/y. X is the primary indicator, while y influences X through the trine, so it has to be taken into account, but it has secondary importance.

Personally I wouldn't look at jobs as being prestigious/important vs. menial. My preference is to look at prolific vs. barren, that is, whether the person is productive and effective or the opposite.



Hope this helped,

Larxene Xenohart
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Larxene,

much food for thought. I didn't have time yesterday to follow up on Paul's link, but will do so today. Will see if there are still questions left after that.

SnowWoman
(have we met before somewhere else? I only know of one person who calls me by that name... Razz )
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Thanks Larxene,

much food for thought. I didn't have time yesterday to follow up on Paul's link, but will do so today. Will see if there are still questions left after that.

SnowWoman
(have we met before somewhere else? I only know of one person who calls me by that name... Razz )


Hi again Yukionna,

Maybe we have...in a past life. Smile

I want to add one more thing. In more than one passage from Mathesis, there is this idea that a planet in the 6th needs to be "rescued" by a planet on the 10th, otherwise, the 6th house planet becomes rather miserable and weak. Thus, I would hesitate to use it as the planet of Actions even when no planet is in the 10th...



Larxene Xenohart
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Saturnhead



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:

I suppose in my case that would be valid: my ruler of 9th goes into 6th (whole sign wise)
and I am a nurse


Hey

I find Brihat Parashara Hora Sastra gives the most relevant meanings for each house.

6th

-Maternal uncle
-Enemies
-Wounds and such (Health)
-Step-mother

10th

-Empire
-Space
-Occupation
-Respect
-Father
-Absense from home
-Obligation
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Jack Sweeney



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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
The 10th isn't just honours and high office. In Greek it's called praxis, 'action', and it's clear that Ptolemy, for instance, associated the midheaven with one's line of work. Other traditional authors do mention the 6th and 2nd in a supportive role, as (or if) they trine the 10th. If memory serves, Firmicus says something along these lines, but I haven't the time to look for it.


Hi Martin

There`s a problem here though. Valens says that the MC in the 9th house has to do double job- religion,travel but action and status as well. The MC may not be trine the 6th or 2nd and the fact that the MC has a similar meaning to the 10th points to the fact that the MC is not simply meant to show strenght, but is actually the start of 10th house,which goes against the prevailing idea that the Greeks used Whole houses for topics and Quadrant houses to assess strenght
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack Sweeney wrote:
There`s a problem here though. Valens says that the MC in the 9th house has to do double job- religion,travel but action and status as well. The MC may not be trine the 6th or 2nd and the fact that the MC has a similar meaning to the 10th points to the fact that the MC is not simply meant to show strenght, but is actually the start of 10th house,which goes against the prevailing idea that the Greeks used Whole houses for topics and Quadrant houses to assess strenght

I for one never subscribed to that idea, so I've got no problem with that at all. But many ancient (and even later) authors like to deal in ideal scenarios. That's why I used the phrase as (or if).
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Larxene



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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack,

My understanding is that even if the MC is in the 9th, the 10th sign is still indicative of actions and profession, for Valens. So we have two houses giving indications about actions. Thus, planets in 2nd and 6th are still in trine to the 10th sign.

Also, for Maternus at least, he had a different way of calculating the MC. He seemed to equate the MC to the nonagesimal. In this situation, in all cases but one, the MC will always be in trine to the 2nd and 6th. I am not sure how Paul would interpret it.



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libra_rising



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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the result if the planet(s) in the 6th house end up squaring the 10th house MC? Does that foretell troubles realizing one's vocation?

My MC is 3º Cancer in the 10th house. My 6th house has Pisces Moon at 25º. I've had some trouble recognizing what sort of vocation I want to do, and as a result, I've worked in a lot of different vocations but never really liked any of them enough. I've wondered if that's due to my 6th house Moon square MC which could lead me to "feel" unsatisfied very quickly with whatever I take up?
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