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Saturn Return
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:29 am    Post subject: Saturn Return Reply with quote

If something negative happens just before/during/right after a Saturn Return does it mean the person having the return didn't respond to lessons Saturn had for them, or is it because of the cosmically determined condition of Saturn in the natal chart and the person had no control over anything even from before birth?

Last edited by StellarTiggy on Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:59 am; edited 3 times in total
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Facebook this morning someone posted a link to the eight writing tips of novelist Kurt Vonnegut (its the anniversary of his birthday today; he was born 11 November 1922).
http://writerswrite.co.za/kurt-vonnegut-writing-advice-and-a-letter-for-2088

Number 6 is:

Quote:
Be a Sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them-in order that the reader may see what they are made of.


So let's suppose that Saturn's humbling experience is about teaching lessons. Maybe it is not so much about what has already been done, but how we deal with difficulties in the here and now.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to try to answer this obliquely. I'm really interested in this topic, even though it is only marginally traditional. I've never had a Saturn return worth mentioning (I've lived through two), and I can only hope that I've learned whatever it is that I'm supposed to learn. In other words, my experience with the Saturn return is a big yawn.

Also I don't recall reading anything about a Saturn return in any traditional text. The closest I've come across is Morin noting that the return of any planet to its original place in any chart is important and should be calculated and read like a solar return in order to judge the effects over the next period or something like that.

Needless to say the great 17th century French astrologer never mentioned karma, or lessons to be learned, putting down roots etc. Saturn rules my 6th and 7th and one might expect a divorce or something nasty like a long term visit from one's mother-in-law with that, but nah.

So of course this reinforces my beliefs that transits, by themselves, aren't all that important. But I don't think that my personal experiences are universal.

So has anyone else had a "traditional" Saturn return they wish to discuss? Or discuss this topic within a traditional framework? Feel free.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi stellertiggy,

it's a good question. i see it more as a philosophical question.. do you believe in cause and effect ( karma for some), or is there an alternative way of viewing events that happen in a different framework? deb has answered your question in the here and now.. sorting out whether an event is based on some past action seems counterproductive to me. i like deb's response as it stays focused on the moment without looking for an explanation of the 'why' in the past.

i also relate to what tom says. if we are only looking at transits for an explanation on the 'why now' question, i think we are ignoring other ways an event might be interpreted astrologically..

the 'first' saturn return is a completion of one saturn cycle.. i think of it as a structure building exercise, but more importantly a learning activity which is always ongoing. people build structures for different reasons, but security and protection is an important part of it.. just how we learn to live with fear, or whether fear has an undue influence on our actions - all of this is how i would see saturn building walls to protect us, or prevent us from being able to engage with others in a positive way.

perhaps some difficult event can happen at the time of the saturn return, but i would hypothesize this happening when saturn is in some difficult relationship at birth with other planets in the chart.. a saturn/venus conjunction or square at birth with saturn in the 7th house would be similar to the example you provided.. in this case saturns lesson might be that no matter how much we try to protect ourselves from the unpredictability of life and events thru saturn, events will still come to teach us lessons that we are meant to experience and grow from. a saturn return is different for everyone and although generalizations might work to an extent, they are going to be completely different for everyone..
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Saturn Return Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
I know how a Saturn Return goes depends largely on how you handle the lessons Saturn is trying to teach us. It also depends on Saturn's condition on the natal, sect, and other transits, timelords. But let's say something bad happens during/around the return, like the spouse having an affair. Would this mean the person did not heed Saturn's lessons and acted negligently toward their partner, and so Saturn has brought with it an affair to teach the person the consequences of their behavior? I can't think of another example because I wanted to discuss the lessons/consequences paradigm.


Hi Stellar Tiggy,

Quite frankly, the kind of language you are employing reminds me an awful lot of moralistic Christian preachers. It's also the language used by earlier occult orders, i.e. in Theosophy. Maybe that's where the notion came from that the planets are there to "teach us lessons"? And even though they sometimes seem to have such an effect, in my view it's not always so clear cut what - as that view implies - what is good and what is bad - things just are what they are, and who can tell where they eventually lead to. That's what a Daoist or Zen Buddhist would say. Now, that sounds quite like Saturn to me! Laughing

Personally, I don't recall any particular difficulties during my first (and so far last) Saturn return, even though in the aftermath some things went indeed quite haywire. But at that time there were other, more precise transits active (as they had been all along). Of course, they are all somehow interconnected, weaving a tapestry in time, as the events in our life unfold. Overall, I wouldn't weigh Saturn Returns more heavily than other major conjunctions.
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hervaro



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Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having natal Saturn sitting 1 above my Scorpio ascendant, being the exalted ruler of my Libra-Sun, I can testify to His Returns having quite some impact Tongue Out
At the 1st return, after having come quite near to comitting a passionate murder, lol (Venus also in Scorpio-1), the community we had lived and worked in for about 7 (!) yrs, broke up and I got for the 1st time really independent in my life.
At the 2nd return which - hellenistically speaking - started at Saturn's re-entrance in Scorpio in octobre 2012, I within 2 weeks lost 5 teeth and dental parts. Later in 2013, my eyesight dimmed and I had to take an eye-operation. Still trying to adjust to that...

So..., I guess (indeed, and I'd like to say "of course!") Saturn's natal position is of adamant importance in order to weigh the impact of His Return!
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libra_rising



Joined: 23 Nov 2014
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have Libra Jupiter-Saturn conjunction on my AC. Exalted Saturn is exactly at on my AC at 3. I have 0 Jupiter (critical planet).

I went through my 1st Saturn's return when T Saturn was in Libra. I'm not exactly sure if my Saturn's return would be what's "traditional" or "textbook" description, but mine was really action packed and they were all very deeply felt in somber ways at best, but depression was the order of the day. My peers who belonged to Libra Saturn generation did not have a merry ole time, either. All of them suffered separation of some sort. Some of them got married (some out of reluctance) because they felt pressured. Others wanted to get married badly and were desperately seeking their future spouse. As for me... I was trying to heal myself from being pulled into the very dark depths of hell.

I think it was quite busy because Libra Saturn is not only exalted, but because it's cardinal which means a lot of starts. Because it was not only my Saturn's return, but it also hit my ascendant/first house. Being that Libra Saturn is already cardinal but placed in the most powerful (angular) house- I felt every little painful thing there ever was. I felt like I got punched twice as hard, twice as much, and the pain lingered twice as long.


First, I went through divorce so that was devastating and yes, it felt like the world ended. I once had a loving relationship and then it went kaboom! as soon as the clock turned over to Libra Saturn.

Second, I learned to rely solely on myself and be self sufficient in as many ways as possible- I got through my divorce all on my own and the help of making some friends. The friends I've made during this time period have served me well and continue to support me even now.

Third, I moved around quite a bit geographically (as in several hundred miles away) several times. It ended up where I decided to return to my hometown of Los Angeles so I could recuperate and get my bearings. During this time, I also traveled quite a bit and had gotten my passport all by myself (the first time was when my parents did that for me when I was a kid and we traveled a lot).

Fourth, my 1st cat from my early college days died. A major part of my childhood died with him as I buried my furry companion. That happened 1.5 years after my divorce and it hit me really hard.

Fifth, my looks changed...for the better! My face got leaner and I lost some babyish qualities about me. I dressed more mature and my mannerisms became more polished and suave. As I gained more confidence in my appearance, I also gain a stronger stance in the way I dealt with people. I use to bend over backwards for others and anyone who pushes me before, I would just step aside for them. During my return, I gained my "backbone," so to speak. Saturn rules the spine and mine got fortified both metaphorically (I stood up for myself and will fight others to the point of destroying of shattering them) and physically (I took a lot of yoga to strengthen my back and improve my posture).

Sixth, this maybe more related to the Saturn return hitting my natal Jupiter as it's also on my ascendant... but I went back to being a vegetarian (I was when I was a teenager). I stopped eating meat one day and just didn't go back to it. I rapidly lost about 15 pounds from my divorce and probably another 10 lbs from axing meat. At one point, I was at the same weight I was at high school graduation (119lbs).

Seventh, my insomnia got more powerful as I keep thinking of things endlessly. My sleep since the beginning of Libra Saturn (2009) has been sparingly and short. In my natal chart, 3 Libra Saturn square 29 Gemini Mercury, even though they trine by signs. AS if the square isn't bad enough to keep me preoccupied with all sorts of analytical thoughts, during my Saturn's return amplified me being more and more critical and sharp minded, sharp tongued, sharp knives. To this day, I cannot shake this. Saturn's return deepened mental abilities to realistically analyze every situation that's presented to be either in person or in theory.

Here is my chart...maybe it will help understand.
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Jupiterhead



Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/QBN7A2MRLYM?list=UUTfqvbOwquhrD6a9pAUV97g

Explained.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Later on I'll watch the You Tube video, but I'd like to throw this out for discussion. I'd also like to know if anyone has ever done this.

We cast charts for solar and lunar returns, but apparently it is not the practice to cast one for Saturn returns. Old astrologers probably could not have come up with an accurate ASC or MC, or if they could, it couldn't be done as accurately as it can today. So, why not cast a chart for the Saturn return?

Thoughts?
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tom,

i have done it to my own chart a few years ago, but not for anyone else. with solar or lunar returns, you can see the results more immediately to be able to make associations. given the duration of a saturn return, it might be much harder to gauge the impact of the return. ps - i have 3 returns on the next one - direct, retro, direct. this is also something one doesn't have to process in a solar or lunar return.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand James' point but I'm not so sure about the duration, if by that we mean the effects of a Saturn return operate for 29 years. Major decisions in life can have consequences good or bad for that long or longer, but the decision is only made once. True, every decision is not made on return day. Everything we think do and say is not dragged out for 29 years either.

I admit I'm groping a bit here since I've never done this, but I think the idea has merit. The problem is that it is virgin territory. I don't know any astrologer that has attempted to use a chart to predict effects of a Saturn return. Astrologers are all taught to hide under their beds (for 29 years?).

I'm going to play with this a bit and report on what I come up with, if anything.
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libra_rising



Joined: 23 Nov 2014
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would we cast a chart for Saturn's return? Saturn stays at the same degree for quite some time and not only that, Saturn can retrograde. The luminaries don't retrograde and they don't stay in the same degree for a long time.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cast it for the first time the aspect perfects. In other words when Saturn first hits its natal position. It can't retrograde over it the first time. Solar Fire can do this, perhaps other programs can, as well.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets kick this around a little. Yes, I know this is hindsight astrology, but, unless were willing to wait anywhere from years to decades to find out if were right, then this is where we have to go. Id like to look at the method with an open mind rather than nitpick it before we start. And out of necessity, this will be brief.

I selected the chart of John F. Kennedy because his last Saturn return, should it have any predictive value other than hard times, it should show two things, his election as President of the United States and his death. These occurred within a three year period a little more than half way through his Saturn return cycle. I do not expect to see those two events etched indelibly into the chart. But I would expect to see some indication of honors or rise to prominence as well as death.

Birth chart:




Saturn in the 10th, particularly in detriment is said to indicate rise to prominence and fall from prominence. Hitler had it, not that JFK is comparable to Hitler in any other way. Its just that they both fell from high leadership positions, albeit for very different reasons.

JFKs natal Sun is on the antiscion of his MC. The Sun is also conjunct Aldebaran, and Robson gives the following for that position: courage, intelligence, eloquence, popularity and cautions that benefits seldom are long lasting plus there is the danger of violence and sickness. Little remembered today or known then that JFK was a fairly sickly youth. The MC is conjunct the fixed star Procyon: sudden elevation ending in disaster Robson

Kennedy has a loaded 8th house including the ominous Mars in detriment on the 8th cusp. The Sun is also in the 8th (Placidus) as is Venus lady of the ASC and ruler of the ASC.

So there are indications of rise to prominence and early violent death.

Saturn return




Venus is approaching the fixed star Regulus and then will go into her fall. The Return Moon, ruler of the natal MC is square natal Moon, and conjunct the Saturn Return IC (endings), and square the Saturn return ASC. Mars is on the contra antiscion of the natal ASC, which puts it on the antiscion of the natal DSC, setting. The Return Sun is on Castor: rape or murder committed or suffered. (Robson)

Mercury rules the natal Sun (life force) and natal Moon (career, honors). In the Saturn Return chart it is on the antiscion of the natal 8th cusp and natal Mars.

What, if anything does this tell us? With hindsight, quite a bit. It seems to tell us that within this cycle there is a strong possibility of a rise to prominence and death. I dont think those things can be timed with the Saturn return chart, unless there is a way of directing the chart that will highlight November, 1960 to January 1961 (election and inauguration) and November 1963 (violent death). Thats more work than I care to do at the moment.

Kennedy married for the first and only time in 1953. Marriage for most of us occurs before the first Saturn return, and so would probably not stand out, if we can recognize it at all. Kennedy married later (age 36), so it might be there should anyone wish to look.
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libra_rising



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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My chart has similar elements to JFK's. We're both Gemini Sun with Libra rising and Taurus Mars in the 8th house. I go by whole signs so we both have Sun in the 9th house. However, his natal chart shows that he was at least by most accounts, lacked control over his destiny.

For one, he didn't want to go into the political arena, his father pushed him into it. He also didn't want to settle down and marry, as he liked playing around. Again, his father controlled him and pushed him into it. Jackie O was handpicked to be his bride, but it was no secret about his affairs and she suffered a lot from his infidelities and wanted to divorce him, and yet she stayed in the marriage WHY? Because JFK's father paid her millions to stay in the marriage and play the beautiful, dutiful wife of a handsome and respectable president because the patriarch didn't want any scandal that would damage his family's name and JFK was the most prominent member of the family. Hey, that must be a huge indicator of Cancer Saturn in the 10th house near the MC. I suspected that he rose to fame because his Sun is in its joy- the 9th house.

I've read a lot about JFK (because I knew his chart had some similarities to mine) and even Jackie O. My personal opinion is that JFK was rather a f*ckup and he was a major liability to his father. If JFK weren't so handsome and youthful looking due to the Libra rising, he probably would NOT go any further because he was by most account, a person with average intelligence and lacked any sort of ambitious drive.


As for my chart, I've NEVER been pushed by my father nor mother in my entire life. I've always been able to do whatever I wanted, however I want it, and whenever I wanted. My parents worried about me, not because my decisions or actions could cause any shameful repercussions, but on the contrary, they thought that I was too stressed and serious for my age and wanted to see me go out and have fun. They thought I was too moral, to much of a straight arrow, and too honest. I always looked younger than my age, but I always would say the most condemning things that would throw people off, probably a combo of my Libra Saturn and Gemini Mercury. My peers thought the same about me and didn't value me for my finer exalted Saturine qualities...not until more recently when we've all been over our first Saturn's return.

Similar to JFK, I am supported by my family financially. I have practically everything paid for, and my parents put up with my shenanigans. I've drifted a lot in life, due to a lack of motivation and basically zero ambition. I travelled a lot, met a lot of different people, and overall, just got to do whatever I wanted. Before that, I was secretly married to my college sweetheart, of whom my parents were totally unaware of, as I did not bother to tell them. Unlike JFK, I am quite intelligent, as my Mercury is in dignity of Gemini- I hold 2 college degrees (BA and MS from Ivy League schools), I talk fast and can sell snow to people in Antartica. Unlike JFK, I don't sleep around and I never cheated on anyone or anything (not even a test or taxes) in my entire life. I find that sort of thing beneath my dignity. But then again, my Saturn is exalted so quite possibly that produces a better person, as I'm lead to believe.

Here's my 1st Saturn's return chart. I think I did it right. Venus is in detriment...and so was my marriage. By that time, I was already officially divorced and extremely depressed, but started to open up and talk to others about it (hence the Gemini Moon). Mercury also in detriment- that was a time when my mental energies were completely maxed out. Jupiter was in 5th house- there were a lot of strange and unattractive guys that went after me for awhile, but I had no interest nor desire to even consider dating (Jupiter square Moon, Jupiter square Venus, Jupiter opposite Mars).

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