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Saturn Return
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I've read a lot about JFK (because I knew his chart had some similarities to mine) and even Jackie O. My personal opinion is that JFK was rather a f*ckup and he was a major liability to his father. If JFK weren't so handsome and youthful looking due to the Libra rising, he probably would NOT go any further because he was by most account, a person with average intelligence and lacked any sort of ambitious drive.


Don't know what you've been reading about him, but your description doesn't fit with a lot of known facts other than he might well have been a child of destiny. Kennedy suffered from Addison's disease (chronic adrenal insufficiency) and until the development of cortisone was a pretty sickly youth. which would account for what seemed to be a lack of ambition. He was twice, I think, given the last rites of the Roman Catholic Church at a time when that sacrament wasn't given until you were at death's door. It would have been easy for him to get out of military service during WWII and his brother was still alive when he joined. Kennedy served honorably, even heroically during the war. It is true that after his brother Joe was killed in combat that he was pushed into his career by his father who had one of the most powerful personalities ever. I'd check on the bit about Jackie being paid millions to stay with him. I would believe Joseph P pressured her.

But to bring this back to astrology, I would like to hear why you believe his chart is one of destiny. What characteristics of chart show that?
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libra_rising



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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Jackie O was paid $3 million (from what I remember) which was a tremendous about of money at that time. Jackie O slyly got the go ahead from Joseph Kennedy that as long as she maintains appearances and plays her part in keeping the Kennedy power in tact, he will reward her monetarily. Jackie O went on to order many expensive haute couture garments (like Balenciaga) that ran bills up sky high and JFK was a bit nervous and annoyed by his wife's extravagance. JFK (like a good Libra rising) was worried about what the public said about the President's wife spending money like water (Jackie O was Scorpio rising after all). She did that because she slyly wanted to stick it to JFK but was not able to leave him.

As for JFK... his IQ was 119, which was from an actual IQ test that he took. That is of average intelligence (at best), but he did nothing to achieve what he achieved, which is a sham. His father orchestrated everything and JFK played along, and perhaps childhood illness was rather a tragedy, but that is no excuse for his playboy, lackadaisical ways. All his brothers tried HARD to impress their father, did everything in their powers to please JPK but they came up short. JFK was the favorite, and JPK envisioned JFK as the one to hoist the family name into permanent glory.

As for the astrology part, what makes me think his chart has more destiny than ability? Various combo of traits, but the biggest one was one you touched upon- detriment Saturn in 10th house conjunct MC. It's somewhat of a 2 part with that one. The first part is that Saturn is in the 10th house, which is an angular house- the 2nd most powerful next to the 1st house, but traditionally, it is the house of the FATHER and signifies how one rises through their paternal lineage. The second part is that the MC axis conjuncts Saturn and therefore Saturn is the most "elevated" or most visible planet in JFK's chart. The kicker is that his Saturn is in detriment- the sign of Cancer. What is the reasoning behind why Saturn is in detriment in Cancer? Same reason as why Capricorn that is ruled by Saturn is in detriment for the Moon. I look back to the natural relationships between the planets.

Saturn is perhaps the most heavy handed opponent against the luminaries and Saturn makes the luminaries dignities and exaltation as his detriments/fall. In exchange, the luminaries take Saturn's dignities and exaltation to turn them into their detriments/fall. However, Saturn's power is one of fate- of consequence. Basically speaking, Saturn makes sure you get what you "give." But that's only a small taste of the damage Saturn can do.

There is something I've learned as a child in boarding school that's called the double gypsy's curse- "May you get what you want and may you want what you get." If Saturn was personified, he'd say that for sure.

From where I'm standing, and it could be a combo of what I read from Valens and my own interpretation, Saturn is literally the worst planet to have in detriment/fall simply because Saturn is easily able to cripple the other planets and thus, ruin the chart. All the efforts and abilities a person put forth can amount to nothing or shame/disgrace if Saturn is poorly positioned. If Saturn is in dignity or exaltation, he can elevate the chart and the planets that he touches. But if Saturn is in detriment or fall, he will bring misery and ruin upon the chart and whatever planets he touches. Saturn was not given the title of the Greater Malefic (Lesser Malefic is Mars) for nothing.

Anyway, JFK's Cancer Saturn on the MC and in 10th house signifies to me that any prestige he had was NOT earned, but it came about through his father. The reason for his fall was because the prestige he earned was not his own, and so when he fell, he fell alone. His father was not there to protect him, and thus, Saturn did his part in JFK's chart.

Furthermore, speaking of the Kennedy curse...I would say it's rooted in JPK's chart. He had Leo Saturn (also detriment) in the 11th house- the house of gains. What JPK sought to establish and gain, through power and manipulation, through regal appearances (like JFK winning the election because he was handsome and Nixon was sweating like bullets in a televised debate), and the finest that his vast money could buy- it died with his sons' early deaths.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but traditionally, it [the 10th house] is the house of the FATHER and signifies how one rises through their paternal lineage.


I'm not sure what tradition you refer to, but in Western traditional astrology the father, family and ancestry are 4th house. The tenth is traditionally the mother when she needs to be differentiated from the father otherwise she is part of the ancestry. Modern astrologer reversed this because of the planet = sign = house beliefs. Ptolemy included children in the 10th, but to my knowledge that aberration wasn't followed by anyone else. If Valens put the father in the tenth, he is in the minority.

Kennedy's Saturn in detriment in the tenth would be a red flag for rapid fall from power. A murder will do that for you, and if the Saturn return chart has validity, the potential should be shown in this chart.

If you're going to argue that Saturn in the 10th and conjunct the MC makes a person more fated than most, I can see it a little, but would expect a lot more in the chart to validate the delineation.

As for what, if anything, Joseph P paid Jackie and the other anecdotes and opinions, they are pretty far off topic. The topic is whether or not a Saturn return chart is useful or is the timing of the Saturn return by itself enough? Let's stick to that.

As an FYI 2/3 of the population scores between 85 and 115 on IQ tests. Above 115 is above average and no psychologist worth his salt would bank on a single IQ test as the sole determination of intelligence. The test taker could be having a very good or a very bad day or not paying attention all that much. But anyone's opinions of Kennedy's intelligence or accomplishments, real or imagined, are not part of the topic unless the events, regardless of what they show or what we think of them, are related to the return chart.

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libra_rising



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Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
but traditionally, it [the 10th house] is the house of the FATHER and signifies how one rises through their paternal lineage.


I'm not sure what tradition you refer to, but in Western traditional astrology the father, family and ancestry are 4th house. The tenth is traditionally the mother when she needs to be differentiated from the father otherwise she is part of the ancestry. Modern astrologer reversed this because of the planet = sign = house beliefs. Ptolemy included children in the 10th, but to my knowledge that aberration wasn't followed by anyone else. If Valens put the father in the tenth, he is in the minority.

Kennedy's Saturn in detriment in the tenth would be a red flag for rapid fall from power. A murder will do that for you, and if the Saturn return chart has validity, the potential should be shown in this chart.

If you're going to argue that Saturn in the 10th and conjunct the MC makes a person more fated than most, I can see it a little, but would expect a lot more in the chart to validate the delineation.

As for what, if anything, Joseph P paid Jackie and the other anecdotes and opinions, they are pretty far off topic. The topic is whether or not a Saturn return chart is useful or is the timing of the Saturn return by itself enough? Let's stick to that.

As an FYI 2/3 of the population scores between 85 and 115 on IQ tests. Above 115 is above average and no psychologist worth his salt would bank on a single IQ test as the sole determination of intelligence. The test taker could be having a very good or a very bad day or not paying attention all that much. But anyone's opinions of Kennedy's intelligence or accomplishments, real or imagined, are not part of the topic unless the events, regardless of what they show or what we think of them, are related to the return chart.



If modern astrology uses the formula of planet= sign= house belief than wouldn't the 10th house be the father still?

I don't remember if Valens used 10th house as the father, but that's how I was taught by a retired traditional astrologer about 8 years ago. Perhaps it is rooted in Vedic astrology. It doesn't matter, I never agreed with 4th house as the father and 10th as the mother because it didn't fit in from the context of when astrology was set up. People from long, long, long ago were deeply patriarchal. Even up to 50 years ago people were still very patriarchal. For as prominent and prestigious as the 10th house is, in addition to it representing high noon to be the most elevated placement of the chart, it would only make sense that any of the diurnal and masculine planets should be more at home (Sun, Saturn, Jupiter) and those planets all represent the Father on some levels. The mother would be in the 4th as that's the dead of midnight and most charts have the IC housed there, which is to represent the origins of the chart...something hidden and deeply intimate.

JFK took that IQ test during his time and in comparison to what the scores were like at that time, he scored average. How would you know he took it only once? That could have been the last time he took the test and that was the score that was kept on file. He was of average intelligence which is not surprising, so what of it? Psychologists can assess IQ tests are an accurate measurement of someone's intelligence if results lead them to that conclusion based upon their professional analysis whether you think they're "worth their salt" or not.

Let's be clear here. I never "argued" for anything. I wrote what I thought on JFK and then you asked me to expand on why I thought what I did. I added some other information about JFK but that was only used to further illustrate that JFK was not well equipped to being in the limelight going from being a playboy who had lacked ambition to being President with a wife who resented him and did passive aggressive things to get under his skin. That shows that JFK did not have his ducks in order if he couldn't control his own wife. The fact that JPK, the father who not only picked for Jackie O to be the President's bride, had to pay for the bride to stay in the marriage to avoid a family scandal, clearly shows that JFK couldn't even have his home life under control. And if we have to get into his politics of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, that's another monster of which JFK was also extremely ill-equipped to handle.

You're getting a bit touchy about the topic of JFK and is rather defensive of him. No need to turn the tables on me just because I wrote things you didn't know/didn't like about JFK. I kept on topic when I casted my Saturn's return chart and talked about what I do know for sure- me. You ignored that and asked me about JFK and I answered. Don't turn around and blame me for setting the topic slightly off course just because I didn't give you answers you wanted to see.
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Saturnhead



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Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Father is the 9th house.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're reading into my remarks quite a bit and ignored the simple fact that your JFK rants are off topic. This isn't a political discussion board. As for defensive just so you'll know - I never thought much of him; I vote the other way. In fact you're the one defending your rants. Please stop them.

I didn't ask you for your opinion on JFK, his father, his wife, or his IQ. In fact I asked politely, that you stop that . Apparently it didn't register. I asked you why you thought his chart was fated and hoped that would be subsequently demonstrated in the Saturn return chart, which is the topic.

Modern astrology uses the 4th as the mother because Cancer is the 4th sign so planet (Moon) = sign it rules ((Cancer) = 4th house so the 4th is mother as she has analogy with Cancer and the Moon. Tenth is father; 7th from the 4th. Every traditional astrologer I've ever read used the 4th for the father. Around here "traditional" has a somewhat specific meaning: the astrology practiced before the end of the 17th century which obviously includes Valens. Valens is the one of the few major traditional astrologers that I've never read. You mentioned him, so I thought you found something there re: the 10th and the father.

Kennedy's 4th house ruler (the father) is in the 10th career. Kennedy also has the part of fortune in the 4th indicative of fortunate influence (monetary or otherwise) of the father according to Robert Hand.

I know people who think Alan Leo was traditional. Maybe your teacher was one of those.

Stick to the topic.

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hervaro



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Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned before, my natal Saturn, ruler of Mars L1 in the 3d and of the 4th house, is sitting on my Scorpio ascendant. So the idea of a Saturn-return chart ofcourse appealed to me.

In my (2nd) S-return, Saturn rules the ascendant, and is posited on the cusp of the 9th (Placidus houses), one degree conjunct the PF, and then there is Venus ruler of natal Sun and Mercury ruler of natal Moon, all together with NN, all in Scorpio in the 9th house of the return.
Jupiter, nataly positioned in Cancer-9, is retro in the 4th in Gemini (conjunct Aldebaran).
Moon is - as in the nativity - in Virgo, but on cusp 8 of S-return.

This Moon I can recognise in quite a lot of stress and anxiety since Saturn entered Scorpio, mainly regarding health, but all the other positions nicely reflect the fact that hubby and I just last month acquired a "finca" in Andalucía, Spain: the fulfillment of a joint dream...
If life were perfect then Mars (natal L1) wouldn't be in the 12th of this S-return, but just as in my natal it 's in mutual reception with Saturn here, so things about health may work out fine after all.

One other thing: Pluto in the S-return, is exactly on my natal ascendant. I guess shifting from one's natal country to another one, having to learn also another speak, might cause enough turbulence to account for this Pluto-transit...
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Saturnhead



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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturnhead wrote:
The Father is the 9th house.


Father's DNA is the 9th because it's 5th (children) from the Asc. 10th is your Father's impact on your life.
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libra_rising



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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturnhead wrote:
Saturnhead wrote:
The Father is the 9th house.


Father's DNA is the 9th because it's 5th (children) from the Asc. 10th is your Father's impact on your life.


Yes, thank you. 10th house is the legacy that one gets from the father. That's what I was talking about but I used short cuts when describing about how the 10th house is linked with the father. I thought most people would know what I'm talking about it, but apparently not.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the Traditional Forum.. Ptolemy, Valens et al were a little weak on DNA. The 9th as the father is possibly unknown in traditional literature and that's what we use around here. The argument that the father is the 9th more properly belongs in the general nativities forum

Since staying on topic doesn't seem possible, I'm locking the thread.
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